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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: John1935 on Wednesday 08 October 14 06:20 BST (UK)
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John Tillman b. 1834 in Sunderland, became a well known Sunderland Architect and thanks to the Sunderland Echo - a well recorded one, but after his Brother (and junior partner) died in 1892, except for the fact that he put his house ( Clifton Villas) up for sale in 1894 - no records till his death on the 31th December 1899 (in his house in Harrogate -140 Valley Drive).
Knowing that he was a member of the Wesleyan Church and also a Mason, I am wondering if there might be any record of him there in Harrogate or in what ever Newspaper existed in Harrogate at that time. Did he in fact design Valley drive for Example.
Best
John 1935
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Hello John,
Since this man and others of yours were Masons, have you had a trawl through this site?
http://www.freemasonry.london.museum/ (http://www.freemasonry.london.museum/)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks yet again Westoe
No didn't know of that one - looks like a wet weekend, so no gardening !! and a good read of that site could come up with interesting info.
Best
John
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Uhm,
If anybody has the has the time and possibility of looking up Probates on Ancesters, would be obliged for John Tillman please.
Death Cert gives:
31st December 1899 at 140 Valley Drive Harrogate John Tillman age 64 - registered 3rd Jan 1900.
District - Knaresbrough in the county of York.
Best
John
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Sorry, cannot find an index entry for John in the Probate Calendar.
I see from the census returns, he was FRIBA (Fellow of Royal Institute of British Architects). May be worth contacting RIBA to see what sort of information they hold in their archives. http://www.architecture.com/Explore/Home.aspx
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Thanks for looking Goughy
Yes had contacted RIBA both in North and London, but they have less info than I have, (and that due to fruitful research into Sunderland Echo).
Maybe like his father before him, he made no will, possible as his only remaining relatives in the area were his sister Mary Isabella and her Daughter Dorothy (who when they died later had quite a bit of money).
I suppose that might have come directly from John, when he sold Clifton Villas in Sunderland ?
Thanks again
Best
John
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Hello
No not a Tillman to be seen on Mason's site, but will be worth a visit when I next get over, as they say they have plans for the Lodges, and I know for certain that John did St John's Lodge, Park Terrace in Sunderland (1870)- now in the Beamish Museum, and had already in 1864 designed one in West Hartlepool ( which I believe might still exist and be part of the College of Art).
He (John) seems to have been a bit of a workaholic, so can just not imagine that he retired into oblivion.
Best
John
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Hello John,
Workaholic hmmmn. Well ... might whatever is actually on the death certificate as cause of death be something subsidiary to a previous health event like a stroke? That might account for the abrupt move and no will.
John was unmarried, correct? And he was very close to his brother Thomas, correct? Could the death of Thomas in 1892 have precipitated a physical decline, mental breakdown or even just what we now call a midlife crisis? Perhaps he decided that he had been a workaholic too long and it was time to relax and smell the roses? Perhaps the "fun" had gone out of architecture without his brother? Do you have Thomas' cause of death?
Have you checked his last address on Valley Drive on the 1891 census to be sure that it is not a hospital or some early variety of care home? That address is now Ashbrooke House Hotel.
There is a way of searching by address on the census - I know that I have seen tips about doing that here at RootsChat, but didn't save them. Stan Mapstone would know.
Cheers,
Westoe
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... I know for certain that John did St John's Lodge, Park Terrace in Sunderland (1870)- now in the Beamish Museum...
Hello John,
Here's a 2006 article from Sunderland Echo about the move to Beamish:
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/what-s-on/new-look-for-masonic-hall-1-1106630 (http://www.sunderlandecho.com/what-s-on/new-look-for-masonic-hall-1-1106630)
When you make your trip over, I'd write them in advance. As a descendant of the architect, (smile)
you might get a personally guided tour.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Yeah !
Or they might just ask for a higher entrance fee to pay for repairs !!!
Best John
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Thanks for the chuckle.
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Hello Westoe
Hmmm - indeed, - have so far six pages of their works, so yes they were busy. Thomas died in a London Hotel of - Rheumatics,and to quote " Deceased gentleman has been in failing health for some time but after a fatal (infection) his death was in anyway anticipated".
John on the otherhand died of 'Bronco Pneumonia' ( whoops! okay, my antibiotics are starting to work!!) and present witness at the death was his neighbour Eva Powell from 142, on dec 31st and no, was a private residence, the present address being a Guesthouse.
Sure it would have hit him hard to loose Thomas after just having lost baby sister Louisa only two years before, but, but, ???
Best
John
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Re ' Midlife crisis'
Have often wondered - if you never know how long you are going to live - how do you know when to have a midlife crisis - so I have one every now and again when I feel like it !!
Nite Nite
John
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Good morning - snifle, snifle !
Have at last found through another source the following from the 'Harrogate Advertiser' Jan 2nd 1900 :
Deaths
Tillman - Ashbrooke, Valley Drive, December 31st
John Tillman,late of Sunderland,aged 64years
Interment to take place Jan 4th, 11o'clock
Now my fuzzy logic,says to me, why put this in the local Harrogate paper, if in fact he wasn't known in Harrogate ?
Question - does this paper still exist, and/or does it have Archives ? ( can not find it on the British newspaper site) - Help please.
Best
John
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Here's the link to the paper's website http://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.uk/
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Once again thanks Goughy
Have just sent them an email, in hope of results.
Best
John
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Hello John,
This source:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GkThQYLb3ZUC&pg=PA812&lpg=PA812&dq=Tillman+%22Valley+drive%22+Harrogate&source=bl&ots=DWWaDfsjQW&sig=IfHZn47vKxGd5d_MKG6paHmYjBI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xUM5VJiWMoX4yQSl5oHYAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Tillman%20%22Valley%20drive%22%20Harrogate&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GkThQYLb3ZUC&pg=PA812&lpg=PA812&dq=Tillman+%22Valley+drive%22+Harrogate&source=bl&ots=DWWaDfsjQW&sig=IfHZn47vKxGd5d_MKG6paHmYjBI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xUM5VJiWMoX4yQSl5oHYAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Tillman%20%22Valley%20drive%22%20Harrogate&f=false)
says obituary appeared in Harrogate Herald on 3 January 1900.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again John,
Do you already have this? I expect that it includes actual drawings by one of the Tillman brothers.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14037519 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14037519)
This source:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=d_g6AwAAQBAJ&pg=PR41&lpg=PR41&dq=Sunderland+%225+Bridge+Street%22+Tillman&source=bl&ots=U9XMZFc0cc&sig=BfNbPIORsD8PjWfl0V6BTUPC1K4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DEc5VMjMHIaNyAS3-IHgBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Sunderland%20%225%20Bridge%20Street%22%20Tillman&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=d_g6AwAAQBAJ&pg=PR41&lpg=PR41&dq=Sunderland+%225+Bridge+Street%22+Tillman&source=bl&ots=U9XMZFc0cc&sig=BfNbPIORsD8PjWfl0V6BTUPC1K4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DEc5VMjMHIaNyAS3-IHgBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Sunderland%20%225%20Bridge%20Street%22%20Tillman&f=false)
says that John was in lodgings in Harrogate at the time of his death and was buried in Sunderland.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Found another bit naming John in Google Books
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=11MFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=%22Williamson+Lodge%22+Sunderland+Tillman&source=bl&ots=NXFlA_PC9A&sig=5GQEYUK9jPokL1vf18e4XteeE8s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J085VP6LKZOcygTI2YHwCg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Williamson%20Lodge%22%20Sunderland%20Tillman&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=11MFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=%22Williamson+Lodge%22+Sunderland+Tillman&source=bl&ots=NXFlA_PC9A&sig=5GQEYUK9jPokL1vf18e4XteeE8s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J085VP6LKZOcygTI2YHwCg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Williamson%20Lodge%22%20Sunderland%20Tillman&f=false)
It's in
Freemason's Magazine and Masonic Mirror
page 23 of March 1870 ed'n
Brother John Tillman W.M. opened the inaugural ball.
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Hello Westoe
Thanks for that, on second one, had been in touch in the past with Michael, who wrote the book, on the first, yes did have that info from one of the Goodsirs, who came thru above Michael, who in fact also sent me the cutting from the Harrogate Advertiser ( not sure if they are not all one and the same paper.
Last one, yes it does look as though I will be forced to visit TNA again,( grimace !) have that down on must do next time I go over, - never know when an Ancestor's Sewer plan might come in useful!
Next one, am half way though this, but looks very interesting, see you have now tamed the computer.
Best
John
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(Smile) No need to actually go to the abhorred TNA John. First, I'd ask them for a quote on digitizing it. It may only be 3-4 pages and the cash cost less than the wear and tear on your nervous system.
I have a feeling that Harrogate Herald was absorbed into Harrogate Advertiser. Still, now now you have the specific date for the obit.
Cheers,
Westoe
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never know when an Ancestor's Sewer plan might come in useful!
It's already useful in that it corroborates the information you already had about the Tillman brothers doing sanitary work for the Corporation of Sunderland, no?
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For the ignorant - like me, who know very little of Masonic affairs what might WM stand for
please.
Not sure about being in lodgings ? Having just sold Clifton villas.
Best
John
p.s True, but I was thinking of 'French' plumbing !!
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W. M. = Worshipful Master, I believe, a rank in the hierarchy of Masons (or possibly Worthy Master).
I would still have a look at who was living at that address in Valley Road on the 1891 census. Or ask someone for a look-up in the 1899 rates book for Harrogate. It might turn out to be a lead.
Cheers,
Westoe
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From Wiki:
Worshipful Master
The senior officer of a Masonic Lodge is the Master, normally addressed and referred to as the "Worshipful Master" (in Scotland, and in Lodges under the Scottish Constitution, the "Right Worshipful Master"). The Worshipful Master sits in the East of the lodge room, chairs all of the business of his lodge, and is vested with considerable powers without further reference to the members. He also presides over ritual and ceremonies.
The office of Worshipful Master is the highest honor to which a lodge may appoint any of its members. The office is filled annually by election, often by secret ballot. The requirements as to who is eligible for election as Master vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but the majority of jurisdictions specify that a brother must have served as an installed Warden to qualify. In practice, most lodges will nominate and elect the previous year's Senior Warden in an uncontested election.
The honorific Worshipful does not suggest that the Master is worshiped, but is used in its original meaning, "worthy of respect". (Mayors and magistrates in parts of England are also traditionally called "Worshipful" or "Your Worship", as are certain bodies such as livery companies). French Masons use the word Vénérable as the honorific for their Masters.
At the conclusion of his limited term of office, a Worshipful Master is termed a Past Master. The duties and privileges of Past Masters vary from lodge to lodge and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. For example, in some jurisdictions Past Masters become life members of the Grand Lodge, while in others they are not. In most jurisdictions, a Past Master retains the honorific "Worshipful" (as in "Worshipful Brother Smith"), however there are a few where this honorific is used exclusively for sitting Masters.
The corresponding grand rank is Grand Master. The Grand Master may preside over his Grand Lodge, and also has certain powers and rights in every lodge under his jurisdiction. Grand Masters are usually addressed as "Most Worshipful", or as in Pennsylvania, "Right Worshipful".[3]
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Right- good - have full picture and will not be ignorant anymore - well at least for a bit anyway.
Doubt if he was in Valley by 1891, as didn't sell His Clifton Villas till 1894, so will try for rates books as you say.
Easy on your new computer, and how does little green beastie feel - rejected !!!!
John
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Hello John,
Who was Margaret Tillman? Born about 1816 at Clifton Villa according to Durham Records Online. (I don't have any credits left there, so couldn't see the full record.)
The column headings for the info below are:
- surname
- forename
- month
- year
- folio no.
- entry no.
- box no.
Haven't a clue what those last 3 column headings mean, but the information below is from an online index of burials at Sunderland Grangetown Cemetery.
http://www.durham-images.org/public/parrec.html (http://www.durham-images.org/public/parrec.html)
TILLMAN MARGARET Feb. 1887 156 3118 42
TILLMAN THOMAS June 1892 61 1214 43
TILLMAN JOHN Jan. 1900 44 879 43
Here's the location of the cemetery:
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2049 (http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2049)
I looked here but don't see any photos of the Tillman grave.
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/cemetery.php?cemetery=2292 (http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/cemetery.php?cemetery=2292)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Morning Westoe
That is Captain John"s wife (Nee Tullick - remember the Captain of 'Englands Queen' who did trips in tandem with John(his brother in law )- to Canada), and yes have them all on massive monument in Sunderland, Mary Isabella is noted, though she in fact is buried in Kensall Green - can't put Photo on line as is private collection,and copyright - but they are all there - so I suppose that Dorothy ( Mary Isabella's daughter) must have made the last entries. Dorothy and her husband Lewis John Jillings ( the parents of our poor Ronald) are buried in Lodden Norfolk.
Best
John
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Me again
As you are by now, with all your help aware - I had no idea about my Sunderland Ancestors till very recent.
Hence I think I should point out this twist of fate -
In the 1950's my lovely Grangetown girlfriend lived in a street opposite the Graveyard and I never knew they were all just across the road, or that my grand Aunt Lavinia( ANGAS )George Tillman's (b.1805) daughter, is also buried somewhere in that cemetery !!!
Best
John
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Recapping :
One reason for John being in Harrogate, is that I note that he had a good friend by the name of Doctor Hall, who lived not far away in Bingley ( or did in 1888, when on a visit (Somewhat short sighted John,)- a quote from the Sunderland Echo opened the wrong door and fell down the cellar steps of his friend's house.
Best
John
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Just an ambling thought..... If "ill health" ran in the family, he perhaps chose Harrogate because of it's Spa etc. Harrogate was of course known for it's Spa Waters and frequented by both British and Foreign "nobility"
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Good Morning Goughy
Or anyone who has availability of viewing Probate. Think that there might be one for John, but that it is registered under 'Durham' - A****** have one but are not showing a date, though I have no other John Tillman in that area ( except his father, who died intestate 1868 ).
Best
John
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Hi
The record you are referring to relates to John Tillman who died 11 October 1868. I've had another look, no Probate for John who died 31 December 1899
Goughy
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Okay and thanks
Yes that was Father who died in Sulina on his ship 'Royal Arch - so the problem remains.
Best
John
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... I never knew they were all just across the road, or that my grand Aunt Lavinia( ANGAS )George Tillman's (b.1805) daughter, is also buried somewhere in that cemetery !!!...
Hello John,
Well ... erm... sometime when you have nothing to do (grin) you could try downloading all 75 ward layout images of that cemetery, look at each one (some of them have to be rotated to be readable) and read most all the surnames of the interred and their plot numbers. For example Plot 929 in Ward 1A is an Ellington - it's on image 3 for that ward. Mind you, it would be less work if you could first find out the order in which the wards were used.
http://www.durham-images.org/public/cemeteries/cemeteries.html (http://www.durham-images.org/public/cemeteries/cemeteries.html)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
As you say Erm! and wife says - you dare! - leaves now dropping everywhere and garden to put to sleep.
Best
John
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garden to put to sleep.
Well, I wish you an easier time of it than I am having. No nice autumn weather this year at all - just raw, rain and cold.
Do you know the ward and plot numbers for Margaret, Thomas and John Tillman - the ones with the massive monument? It might be worthwhile looking at just the images for that ward as often families tried to get plots near each other.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Morning Westoe
Now how was I to know you lived in Alaska !! We seemed to have had the opposite weather, 25°C here last week, but now starting to drop, and with it the leaves!
Yes Margaret is alongside in her own grave, while John and Thomas are in together under the Marble, do wonder who might have put it up though, as all the names of the family are on it including Mary Isabella, the last to go ( 1907 )though in fact she was buried in Kensall green cemetery in London - so who put it up - maybe her daughter - had mother put on to the existing edifice.
Have been in touch with the Mayor's Office in Sulina, and if they can still find Capt John's grave they will send a photo.
Back to searching the wives of our Ellington Chippies, and hoping that 'Ryhopelad' ( who lives up there, might be able to help).
Best
John
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Yes, John, but do you have the ward and plot numbers? If you've got them, send them on. Since she-who-must-be-obeyed won't let you do it, I would take a look for you in that ward only to see if the Tillman plot is anywhere close to Lavinia's.
Cheers,
Westoe
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According to Ryhopelad Lavinia is in Bishopwearmouth cemetery
Best
John
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Old age working well, me thinks I am wandering too far off the subject, and not actually getting anywhere on John's last years - so will put completed on this one and back to Durham and 'Tammy married her daughter Off' to continue the search.
Best
John
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John Tillman b. 1834 in Sunderland, became a well known Sunderland Architect and thanks to the Sunderland Echo - a well recorded one, but after his Brother (and junior partner) died in 1892, except for the fact that he put his house ( Clifton Villas) up for sale in 1894 - no records till his death on the 31th December 1899 (in his house in Harrogate -140 Valley Drive).
Knowing that he was a member of the Wesleyan Church and also a Mason, I am wondering if there might be any record of him there in Harrogate or in what ever Newspaper existed in Harrogate at that time. Did he in fact design Valley drive for Example. COMPLETED
Best
John 1935