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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: philipsearching on Thursday 16 October 14 06:33 BST (UK)
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NOTE:- this links to a census lookup post http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=701236.msg5453785#msg5453785
I cannot trace a record of my great grandfather Harry MOUNT before his marriage in Southwark, Surrey in 1901. On his army record his birth is shown as 9 July 1873 in Totton. On his marriage certificate his father is named as Joseph (deceased). He had a sister around 3 years younger - possibly named Amelia.
With this limited information, is there anyone planning a trip to Hampshire records who could skim baptism entries to see if Harry Mount appears?
FOOTNOTE:- family legend has it that Harry and his father were estranged when Harry fell in love with an unmarried mother, so I am hoping that he did not change his surname as a protest!
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No more information yet - just moving this old query up the list in case someone has any answers or suggestions.
Philip
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Have you checked his place of birth on the 1911 census?
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Have you checked his place of birth on the 1911 census?
1911 census gives place of birth as Portsmouth, Hampshire. Unfortunately, I can't find a matching birth anywhere in Hampshire (there are MOUNTs in Kent and London, but I have disproved any Harry/Henry/Harold born 1870-75)
Philip
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Mount does not seem to be a Hampshire surname. Between 1842 and 1874, only four Mounts were baptised in the county (excluded the Isle of Wight) according to the HGS transcript. These were four siblings baptised in Portsea in the 1850s, the daughters of a seaman in the Royal Navy.
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Mount does not seem to be a Hampshire surname. Between 1842 and 1874, only four Mounts were baptised in the county (excluded the Isle of Wight) according to the HGS transcript. These were four siblings baptised in Portsea in the 1850s, the daughters of a seaman in the Royal Navy.
Many thanks for your reply. This is one of those brick walls I may not manage to break down.
I have looked at every Harry/Henry/Herbert son of Joseph (with any surname) born in Hampshire on baptisms and censuses but found no obvious candidates. Family legend states that Harry had a sister Amelia who married Mr Roberts, but I have had no luck with this either.
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Have you looked at this man, he is kind of interesting. If you have access this is a link to his RN record on Ancestry:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nov/
You can actually read it quite well on the NA without downloading it.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6750419
Harry PARKER says he was born 9 Jul 1873 at Sholing, Southampton, however the year was actually 1872. He deserted in March 1899, and I am not sure if the notes at the bottom of the record are stating that he was recovered at Alexandra in Oct 1899. I think the Pembroke II was the shore base at Chatham so perhaps it is referring to HMS Alexandra. Height, eyes and complexion are the same as your man, though hair is fair vs brown.
PARKER, HARRY
Mother's maiden surname: JUDD
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in SOUTH STONEHAM Volume 02C Page 45
His parents were Joseph PARKER and Amelia JUDD and he also had a sister Amelia born in 1865.
I think it would be challenging to locate him to see if he can be eliminated.
Debra ;D
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There was another thread for a census lookup https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?reportsent;topic=701236 which I have closed.
To summarise: all known information on my Harry MOUNT
Born 9 Jul 1873 (Army attestation papers)
Married 25 Aug 1901 in Bemondsey to Annie MONKS (father's name on marriage cert Joseph MOUNT - deceased).
Found on electoral rolls in early 1900s in Southwark
Found on 1911 census (birthplace given as Portsmouth)
Worked as a labourer (ditch digger) in and around Southwark and S.E. London
Served in Royal Engineers 1915 to 1916 - discharged as medically unfit
Died 5 Aug 1917 Southwark
All information on wife and children is known.
Unproved:
father's name Joseph (marriage cert)
Sister Amelia married Mr ROBERTS(?) - possibly four or more children (family legend and photograph)
Not found:
Entry on 1901 census
Official record of birth/baptism
Names of parents.
Debra - I was so excited to read your post and started thinking "well, that will upset my mum - I daren't tell her!" - if I can find no trace of Harry PARKER after the 1901 census (1911 census, service record, death record) and if I can identify a marriage for Amelia PARKER I will be ecstatic!
(Philip wanders off, happily singing: "A searching we will go!" - to the concern of his family and the confusion of the dog)
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We need to find the sister Amelia PARKER to see if anything fits with the family story, but I am not having any success. PARKER is as bad as SMITH.
Debra :)
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1871
Joseph Parker 37 St Mary, Hampshire,
Amelia Parker 35
Joseph Parker 13
William Parker 7
Amelia Parker 5
George Parker 2
Elizabeth Parker 8 Months
Class: RG10; Piece: 1196; Folio: 11; Page: 15;
1881
Living at Millers Pond, Portsmouth Road
Amelia Parker 44 St Mary Extra, Hampshire
Amelia Parker 15
George Parker 12
Harry Parker 8 Hound (Eastleigh area)
Class: RG11; Piece: 1217; Folio: 17; Page: 28
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This would be her likely marriage:
Marriages March quarter 1885
Arthur Frost Eden S. Stoneham
James Henry Fillmore S. Stoneham
Amelia Parker S. Stoneham
Lydia Haynes is the other lady
Added:
no, looks like her Mother married Mr Fillmore, who had deserted her by 1891 census.
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That is the remarriage of the mother Amelia.
I have just seen this one as a possible for Amelia jnr.
Marriages Mar 1890
EDWARDS, Albert Charles
PARKER, Amelia
Thanet
2a 1117
A child:
EDWARDS, MAY KATHLEEN
Mother's maiden surname: PARKER
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 113
1891 census
West Ham
Albert C EDWARDS, Head, 24, born Southampton, Hampshire, England
Amelia EDWARDS, Wife, 25, born Southampton, Hampshire, England
Mary/May K. EDWARDS, Dau, 3 months, born Plaistow, Essex
Caroline EDWARDS, Mother, 56, born Southampton, Hampshire, England
Class: RG12; Piece: 1323; Folio: 128; Page: 31
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLSK-J2M
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLS2-L2M
The family are still together in 1901. The youngest son is Harry.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9N8-4HH
Debra :)
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Had not looked as far as Thanet, working my way outwards, slowly.
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A transcription of the EDWARDS/PARKER marriage names her father as Joseph, and in 1911 she has Sholing as a birthplace. I would say she is a good match.
Debra :)
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Death?
Amelia Edwards age 85 in September quarter 1952 in East Ham Essex
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This is tremendously exciting. :) :) :)
1) The birth date, height, and eye colour and hair colour for both Harrys are identical. The hair fair vs brown and the discrepancy of one year for the birth are not a problem.
2) Harry MOUNT's firstborn was Amelia, so the family name is a strong clue.
3) Harry PARKER's sister Amelia married EDWARDS - this may well fit in with family legend ("surname could be Roberts, but could be Richards or something like that")
4) A photograph of parents and children thought to be Amelia's children was taken by a photographer with studios in Walthamstow and Upton Park - this fits with Amelia living in West Ham.
All I need to do now is finish searching to prove that Harry PARKER cannot be found on the 1911 census and that there are no matching deaths for him.
chempat - there is a MOUNT presence in and around Thanet which I searched some years ago and could not find a match for Harry.
Thank you again. The brick wall is cracking and may soon crumble.
Philip
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INFORMATION ADDED TO OTHER THREAD https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=701236 WHICH I HAVE ASKED TO BE LOCKED:
Joseph Parker married Amelia Judd 1856 Southampton
1871 to follow have a whole list of siblings, assuming I am correct of course
1872 Birth of Harry 1872 South Stoneham
1878 Death of a Joseph Parker South Stoneham aged 44
So it is possible Amelia married or lived with a Mr Mount?
Just thinking or am I way off track?
Louisa Maud
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702497.0
Amelia did remarry but it was to James Henry FILLMORE in 1885.
Debra :)
RG11/1217 FOLIO 17 PAGE 28 Hound
Amelia Parker is at home as a "W" aged 44 born St Marys
Amelia aged 15 born Hound
George 12 Hound
Harry 8 Hound
Louisa Maud
Please have a look at
1891 RG12/922 FOLIO 34 PAGE 10
if I am correct, Amelia Fillmore has been deserted by husband but there is 2 children in the household by the name of Parker
George Parker 22
Henry Parker 18 is this HARRY?
Perhaps we out to try to find Amelia on 1901, under what name ??, see below
Louisa Maud
Found her
RG13; Piece: 1063; Folio: 105; Page: 37
Amelia Fillmore "w" 64
George Parker 32
Thank you so much for this information
Philip
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I'm intrigued as this is where I was brought up.
My Gt gt grandmother was a Parker, although it is a common name in the area (have you had your DNA tested?).
Amelia Fillmore is still alive in 1911.
Joseph died 22 September 1878 according to a newspaper death announcement.
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I'm intrigued as this is where I was brought up.
My Gt gt grandmother was a Parker, although it is a common name in the area (have you had your DNA tested?).
Amelia Fillmore is still alive in 1911.
Joseph died 22 September 1878 according to a newspaper death announcement.
This is a very enjoyable thread - after years of bruising my head by banging it against a brickwall there may be a solution.
I haven't yet proved that Harry Parker is Harry Mount, but the evidence is stacking up - I am still working through BMD records, emigration and censuses to identify every Harry/Henry born in Hampshire c1870-75 to track them from birth up to 1911 because Harry Parker was last recorded deserting from the Navy in 1899 and I need to prove he cannot be found on any records from 1901 onwards.
If these two are the same person it would be a great story: Harry Parker was born in Sholing (or Hound) joined the Navy and deserted after three years (last record is 1899). Harry Mount appears from nowhere after the 1901 census - he was a labourer and Trade Union member, he volunteered for the Army in 1915 and served in France before being invalided home in late 1916 where he spent some months in Netley Hospital - just a mile or two from Sholing. Sadly, Harry Mount died less than a year after being discharged from the Army as medically unfit.
I have been considering a DNA test but not yet decided. Which website would you recommend? It would be good to find another cousin on Rootschat!
Philip
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Assuming Harry MOUNT is indeed Harry PARKER, then his parents are both easily found on the 1851 census
Joseph PARKER is on HO107/1670/40/21 in Weston in the parish of St Mary's Extra on the south-eastern edge of Southampton with parents Joseph and Frances, both born in Weston. His baptism was on 3 Nov 1833 in St Mary's Extra, and gives the same parents. The first of their children I can find a baptism for is in 1824 (a daughter named Mary Ann), so I'd expect a marriage in the early 1820s, but I can't find one.
Amelia JUDD is on HO107/1670/38/16 in Newtown in the parish of St Mary's Extra, less than half a mile from Weston, with her parents William and Augusta. Her baptism was on 3 Apr 1836 in St Mary's Extra and also confirms her parents. The first of William and Augusta's children I can find a baptism for is in 1821 (a son named William), and I've found a marriage for William JUDD and Augusta BOARD on 4 Oct 1819 in St Mary's, Southampton.
As I have JUDD ancestors in Hampshire, I thought I'd go a little further. William JUDD's age on the 1851 census is a little unclear: I think it's probably says 63 but it could read 65. And it says be was born in South Stoneham. Augusta is listed as a widow on the 1861 census in Hound, so there's no useful confirmation of his age there. However there's a burial for a William JUDD in Hound on 9 Feb 1860, age 72, which suggests the age on the 1851 census is indeed 63. This puts his birth in 1787-8, which strongly suggests he is the son of Edward and Jane JUDD baptised in South Stoneham on 27 Jan 1788, the third of five of Edward and Jane's children in South Stoneham baptism register between 1783 and 1793. Edward JUDD and Jane HUNT were married at South Stoneham on 3 Jun 1783.
This is about the point where I was hoping these JUDDs might connect with mine, but I hit a brick wall on this JUDD line. Edward's burial might have given his age, but I cannot find a plausible burial for him or Jane anywhere in Hampshire. If they were in their early 20s when they married, they would have been born in around 1760, but I cannot find an Edward JUDD baptised in Hampshire between 1746 and 1772. A 1772 baptism would make him impossibly young; the baptism on 14 Sep 1746 is at least in South Stoneham, but would make him at least 36 when he married. That's certainly not impossible, but is somewhat old for a first marriage and there's no obvious sign of a previous marriage.
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Richard - a thousand thanks for the information.
I haven't looked at the PARKER/JUDD lines yet as I am not quite ready to claim Harry PARKER as Harry MOUNT. However, if I can reach that stage then it won't be a brick wall falling, it will be a dam bursting.
Coming soon to a cinema near you - the Rootschat Dambusters ;D ;D ;D
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I feel DNA may give you some answers.
There are several companies offering tests. Have look at the DNA board for advice. Ancestry has the biggest database, you can search matches by name & place. Look out for offers. You have just missed the Easter ones.
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And the conclusions are:
All Henry/Harry PARKERs born in Hampshire 1870-1875 have been identified.
All those alive in 1881 have been identified on the census.
All have been tracked through censuses up to 1911 except for one who died in 1903, one who emigrated in 1910 and Harry PARKER (b1872) son of Joseph (c1834-1878) and Amelia (c1836-1927).
When Harry PARKER joined the Navy his description was: born 9 Jul 1872 Sholing, height 5'5", fair hair, blue eyes.
Harry MOUNT's Army record gives his description as: born 9 Jul 1873 Totton, height 5'4" 3/4, brown hair, blue eyes.
Harry PARKER's last known record is in 1899 when he appears to have deserted from the Navy. Harry MOUNT's first known record is his marriage on 25 Aug 1901 (naming his father as Joseph - deceased).
Harry PARKER's mother was Amelia and he had a sister Amelia born in 1865 who married Albert EDWARDS - they lived in East Ham and had several children. Family legend states that Harry Mount had a sister Amelia - a photograph (from a studio in Walthamstow or Upton Park) in my family's possession shows a couple with four children whose ages match the EDWARDS family c1900
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=705120
Harry MOUNT named his firstborn Amelia. Both Harry MOUNT and Amelia EDWARDS had daughters named Minnie.
So, I am convinced that Harry PARKER changed his surname to MOUNT and gave a different birthplace and birth year on records.
Unless anyone can disprove my conclusions, I will climb up my ladder, shout "Rootschat is awesome!" from the rooftop, then run round the gardenshouting "whoopee!" ;D ;D ;D
Huge thanks to everyone who has contributed thoughts and clues to this search - especially for the Harry PARKER lead.
Philip
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I'd forgotten you had a photo of Harry MOUNT's sister Amelia. Have you thought of seeing whether Harry PARKER's sister Amelia EDWARDS has any living descendants? If she died in 1952 she may well have grandchildren now in their 80s or 90s who remember her and are able to say "oh, yes, that's Granny". If you're really lucky they may even have heard stories of "Uncle Harry" which might help you understand why he changed his name. Ancestry.com can be quite good for finding people like this.
I've just entered the details of Amelia's second daughter, Minnie Caroline EDWARDS into Ancestry, on the basis that this seemed the most unusual name, and fairly rapidly came across a public tree called the Atkins family tree (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/77969126/family) by a woman named Victoria Cooper. The tree looks quite confused, as if perhaps it was created by someone new to Ancestry, with Minnie being grafted onto a seemingly unrelated family in Gloucestershire, but it only took me a couple of minutes with FreeBMD to verify the tree's author is a descendant of Amelia EDWARDS née PARKER. Although she won't have known Amelia personally, she may know of elderly relatives who would remember her.
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Have you thought of seeing whether Harry PARKER's sister Amelia EDWARDS has any living descendants?
That's the next step. I did a quick search for siblings and parents to fill ot the tree a bit and move it back a couple of generations.
I wopn't be doimg any work on ancestors for a week or so as I have other deadlines (wrong priorities- I know!) but tracking Albert and Emily's descendants is next on the list.
Philip
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Just in case you're interested, Ancestry DNA test kits are on offer until Sunday
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812057.msg6723860
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When Harry PARKER joined the Navy his description was: born 9 Jul 1872 Sholing, height 5'5", fair hair, blue eyes.
No, he gave his date of birth as 9 Jul 1873. He was actually born in 1872.
Debra :)
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When Harry PARKER joined the Navy his description was: born 9 Jul 1872 Sholing, height 5'5", fair hair, blue eyes.
No, he gave his date of birth as 9 Jul 1873. He was actually born in 1872.
Debra :)
Sorry - I had a "senior moment". :) :) The two Harrys (or the same Harry!) gave identical day/month/year birthdates on their records.
My next step is to track the family of Albert and Amelia EDWARDS forwards to see if I can track a descendant with knowledge of the family (and maybe a photograph) and see if they know of a mysterious great-uncle Harry.
As always - many, many thanks to everyone who has helped in this search.