RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: cockney rebel on Thursday 16 October 14 16:21 BST (UK)
-
Hi All,
A while back I started a post about the location of Little Hall and hoped that someone with a bit of local knowledge could assist.
(here the link:http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355629.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355629.0))
The responses went a little off-course which is why I have started a new topic.
My ancestor David Walter Powell (b 1777 Devynock) lived in Little Hall about 1800-1812,,maybe longer, which I think is in or near Pentrefelin....which is either in Brecknock or Camarthenshire, I'm not really sure....
At long last, I have found a further, fairly detailed description of where and what Little Hall was, but still have no idea where to look for it on a map .I can't find the River Brane or a mill or or or...
Below the highlights of the description.
The actual announcement with further detail can be read here (Welsh newspapers Online) http://papuraunewyddcymru.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3322772/ART9/david%20walter%20powell
(http://papuraunewyddcymru.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3322772/ART9/david%20walter%20powell)
From the Cambrian
4th July 1812
TO BE IMMEDIATELY LET:
CA RMARTHENSIIIRE. A most desirable DWELLlNGHOUSE, with suitable Out 0ffices, in substantial repair 300 Acres of, excellent . Meadow, Arable, and Pasture LAND, and a Water Corn Grist MILL, with a Bolting Machine,
Little Hall with a Water Corn grist Mill called Little Hall Mill (at a convenient distance from Little-Hall) situate near the excellent market and post-town of Llandovery...on the Great Road from Milford Haven to London.
The Mill is in good repair and well-supplied with work
Comprises 300 statute acres, 3 cottages and a smith's forge
The River Brane runs through part of the Farm and a fine Stream of water through the other parts
So ! Does anybody recognise....well, anything ?!
Grateful for any info and help
Rebel
PS: I shall post this on the Camarthen site as well.
-
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire has a small river on the north side, running east to west.
Llandovery has a river on the east and south sides, running North to SW, called Afon Bran!
On Google it's called Afon Bran = River Bran(e)!
See: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Llandingad/index.html
where it says:
This parish, which takes its name from the dedication of its church, is pleasantly situated near the confluence of the rivers Brān and Gwytherig, which, uniting their streams a little above the town of Llandovery, fall into the river Towy.
Zoopla has a barn conversion for sale at:
Little Hall, Cynghordy, Llandovery SA20 0YW
-
It ought to be on this map somewhere
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102179072
llangadock is on the left of the map, the river flowing thro it across the map is the bran, but I cannot see little hill, maybe the name on the map is in welch and has been turned into English for the sale.
there are two mills shown alongside the river.
llangadock is abt 5 miles sw of llandovery on the magnificent present day A40, I was there on sunday
mike
edit Its llangadock,
-
Oh my goodness ! Thankyou ! So, it is Camarthen then ?
A little knowledge of the welsh language might have been useful...except I haven't got any.
I checked loads of map sites, but checking the NatLib in Scotland certainly didn't occur to me.
Great map by the way...enlarges well.
Zoopla even connects to the streetview image....does that house look (comparing it to the area) a good 200 years old ? Or is it the barn`?! Certainly looks like it's in the middle of nowhere..
http://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/little-hall/cynghordy/llandovery/sa20-0yw/20749560 (http://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/little-hall/cynghordy/llandovery/sa20-0yw/20749560)
Obviously I'd like to discover more about what happened to the property....I'll try and find it first on the 1841.
Many thanks
rebel
-
But having read your other post we are nowhere near pentrefelin, :-\
-
I've read thro your other thread and my feeling is that neither the map I gave you nor the property on zoopla are near enough to defynnog/pentrefelin to be yours.
mike.
now if I can just find defynnog on the old map,,,,,,
-
Hi again
I'll have to check all my references to be properly correct but from memory :
Powell's daughters are born at Pentrefelin (which I assume to be north of Defynnog) and at about the same time (1800-1810 ish) his abode is given as "Little Hall". The Little Hall as mentioned in the For Sale advert is defintely the right one . There is only one David Walter Powell in the gentry of this area for this period. I've been chasing him for years!
Possibly he had 2 residences which would confuse the location search!
Those maps at the NLS are grand....I'll be looking at them all evening if I don't warch out!
I still think we're making progress...perhaps if there was a map or diagramme of this Rive Bran(e) somewhere,it would be helpful
Cheers
rebel
-
Aaargghh!
I was told in my original post in 2009 that Little Hall was Neuadd fach in Welsh and have just found an Allt Neuadd Fach very near the site of the Zoopla property .What does Allt mean ?
And a Little Hall and a Mill. Not sure if it's the right river though..
Bing Ordnance Survey
http://binged.it/1rfPpez (http://binged.it/1rfPpez)
Hope the link works.....
-
Hi
Allt means cliff, hill, hillside or wood
See here https://glosbe.com/cy/en/allt
-
Pentre-y-felin is a little to the north of sennybridge, this link is the next sheet east from pentre-y-felin, bottom right is a largish property LLwyn Neuadd, do the welsh speakers think its a possibility'
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101605235.
mike
added. I am curious as to why, in this welsh area, his residence is given an English name, more so as he was seemingly "chapel".
-
Ah thankyou.
Very useful site for us lot with just a pipette of welsh blood running through our veins! Bookmarked!
Google calculates 14 miles from this Little Hall to Pentrefelin....25 mins by car and 4 to 5 hours walking.
And by horse and carriage?! Google isn't perfect you know....
-
Hi mike
Can't find the prefix/word in the welsh-english dictionary link....but felin seems to mean Mill.
What a pity that the NLS doesn't seem to have a complete set...
I feel the noose is tightening!
Rebel
-
mike added. I am curious as to why, in this welsh area, his residence is given an English name, more so as he was seemingly "chapel".
Yes an interesting questiion..
The ensuing family members don't seem to have been Welsh speakers. His Uncle was Walter Powell, attorney in Brecon, all their correspondence from that period seems to be in English.
His father married in London...perhaps speaking english was a matter of social grace, I don't know.
The family's pedigree is listed in Theo Jones History of Brecon..they seem to be of good old stock and definitely welsh! David Walter Powell may have been the family's black sheep on the religious front.
And although there are dozens and dozens of references to his family in the welsh newspapers, their births marriges funerals and all sorts, I cannot find a single reference to the events of his decease or his buriial.
I've often suspected it may have been suicide..perhaps because of debt...still trying to puzzle that one out.
rebel
-
Aaargghh!
I was told in my original post in 2009 that Little Hall was Neuadd fach in Welsh and have just found an Allt Neuadd Fach very near the site of the Zoopla property .What does Allt mean ?
And a Little Hall and a Mill. Not sure if it's the right river though..
Bing Ordnance Survey
http://binged.it/1rfPpez (http://binged.it/1rfPpez)
Hope the link works.....
The River to the west of Little Hall (Neuadd Fach) is the Bran. It's quite well marked on the old NLS OS maps. Also, on the 1887, 6 ins to the ml OS map, there is a building marked Hall very close to where 'Little Hall' is on your map link.
Gadget
-
hello Gadget, forgive my confusion..
Do you mean 1887 map of Camarthen or 1887 map of Brecknock ?
I can't find the "Hall" you meant ....which means I must be looking in the wrong place.
Could you give me the map name and number when you have time please ?
Thanks
Rebel
-
Hold on a mo, I'll get the links up. It's at the bottom of one map, so I'll have to get both up again.
-
This is the link to the one with Hall marked:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102178841#zoom=6&lat=1299&lon=6890&layers=BT
and this is the map immediately to the south:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102178862#zoom=5&lat=5664&lon=7060&layers=BT
Gadget
-
Thanks Gadget for doing that.....bedtime caught up with me yesterday so I couldn't respond!
From the maps ,it looks like there's the mill on the River Bran and called Aber-Crychan...
"Aber" seems to mean estuary or confluence - and Crychan?
There also seem to be footpaths running through the premises near the Hall....would this mean it was common ground ?
And the Legal-ese in the original advert : does it imply that Powell was the owner or the leaseholder ?
And it all seems to match the location of Zoopla property..even though it may be a newer building.
I'll try printing the bizs of the 2 maps off and join them together for a bit more clarity!
Rebel
-
My Welsh is very rusty nowadays. You are correct about Aber. I think Crychan means curl or crease or similar feature - it maybe relates to the topography of the area.
The location on the map does seems to fit the advert.
Gadget
-
The advert does say it is ' All the leasehold .... for the unexpired term of 17 years' , which suggests that Powell leased it.
It might be worth looking into the Online Archives section of the National Library - there might be info about it there.
Gadget
-
PS to the translation - Crychan is the name of the river which is adjacent to the mill. This would be a tributary of the Bran (with a ty bach over the a - i.e. Brān ). Aber can also mean 'stream' *:
'a fine stream of water runs through the other parts'
* added - or confluence, which would fit as this is where the Crychan joins the Brān
-
Well that's all starting to make sense but
"to be immediately let or sold by private contract at the option of the lessee or purchaser"
Does that mean that Powell was trying to sell his lease of the property, ie that someone pays him money to use the land for 17 years and then it all reverts back to the land-owner?
I wonder when it changed hands...if at all.
Back to the archives....!
Rebel
-
Sorry had to post this! Totally irrelevant I know...
"Mr. Shutt late of Little Hall, near Llandovery, to Miss Marv Protheroe' The galllant bridegroom is in his 75th year, and the blooming- and happy bride in her 22d Year. "
True love,eh ?
rebel
-
Well that's all starting to make sense but
"to be immediately let or sold by private contract at the option of the lessee or purchaser"
Does that mean that Powell was trying to sell his lease of the property, ie that someone pays him money to use the land for 17 years and then it all reverts back to the land-owner?
I read it as he was trying to sell the remaining 17 yrs of his lease. It refers to him 'going to retire on his own estate...'
When did the nuptials of Mr Shutt and Miss Protheroe take place ;D
-
11th december 1836 (2 years after Powell#s death)
I'm very tempted to find out if the gallant Mr Shutt lasted until Christmas! :)
Rebel
-
Did he leave a will ;D
I've been having a look in A2A and the National Library - most of the info concerns building the railway :-\
-
I've found them on the 1841, I think
Panrhedin, Llanfair(?)ybryn, Llandovery
John Shutt, 77, Independent, b. not county
Mary, 25, b. Carmarthenshire
Next door was Richard Shutt, 45, farmer
Added - Ref is HO107/1386/10/8/10
-
"Going to retire on his own estate"
Its beginning to make sense now, presuming his own estate was near defynog, I drove from llandovery to bulith on sunday, past Little hall, there is quite a big mountain between there and sennybridge ;D ;D ;D
Mynd Epppynt, the wettest part of wales I believe
mike
-
We drove over one of the roads in the Mynydd Eppynt 2 weeks ago - the scenic route to Cardiff ;D
-
This NLW item may be relevant:-
[His brother-in-law] W[alte]r Powell, Brecon, 1812, March 20.
Summary
Writer will have nothing to do as to the farm of Little-hall, and he does not expect that his nephew, David Powell, ever will act the steady part of a man; writer's family will probably send him to Gittins to get Powell of Maespoth's money; the Colonel must be a hard landlord indeed if he will not be one month without his half year's rent; the Abersenny tenant would probably give his landlord money for taking up the lease; 'he' [Davy] got a very good tenant at Bailie to give up the farm; writer does not know how to get the deeds ready to complete the purchase of John Thomas's son-in-law on the 25th; writer has forwarded recipient's parcel in Gwynne, esq., v. Bacon, esq. & o[the]rs; recipient ought to come over in consequence of Mr Gwynne's letter; he is requested to serve the def[endan]t in George North & David Rees v. Thomas Thomas, butter merchant, of Llansawell, with a notice to 'your' sess[ion]s.
Regards
Roger
-
@Gadget and Mazi
Well if you ever get out of the car when it's NOT raining, do snap a few pics while youre at it !
Google Streetview seems to only show the Zoopla house...the mill and outhouses out of reach.
Perhaps i should change my holiday destinations!
@despair
Yes, that entry is what led me to the Little Hall in the first place
the nephew David Powell is indeed David Walter Powell and the sentence "does not expect that his nephew, David Powell, ever will act the steady part of a man" has always troubled me.
Do I assume "the Colonel" is the owner of Little Hall ?
The advert was from July 1812...when the second half yearly rent was due perhaps and DWP couldn't pay or what? The attorney letter from March...perhaps he couldn't pay the first rate either.
rebel
-
Nearest I can give you at the moment - this was taken a bit to the NE of New Hall and looking north.
Gadget ;D
-
Thankyou, grand country indeed and higher than I realised (the maps are always so flat....!)
I bet it's great walking country...if you can get up the hills!
one day..
Rebel
-
Hi
I shall mark this as "Completed" ...I think we have found the correct place.
Thank you all for your help....this had been a mystery for a long tIme!
If any one ever gets a chance on their travels to take a few pictures, I would love to see them!
Thanks again
Rebel
-
ooops
Looks like a normal Rootschat user can't do that anymore....what else did I miss?
and there's me trying to do something useful!
Rebel
-
Hi Rebel
You can't make changes to a posting after 24 hours. Afterwards you have to ask a Mod to make the changes. So. if you click on the Report to Mod icon in the bottom right of your post and ask for it to be marked Completed, they will do it for you.
Gadget
-
Done and dusted!
Cheers
Rebel
-
Hello, we are newbies to Rootschat.com so I am not sure I can post on a topic that appears to have been closed?
Just wanted to advise that we are the current owners of Little Hall and have been trying to search our property and its past residents for the past couple of years - If 'cockney rebel' would like to re-open this topic we can probably fill in a few gaps - unable to PM as we have not made enough posts so if anyone out there can get in touch with 'cockney rebel' to let them know that would be great. Thanks.
-
Happy New Year!
Exciting !
I'd be delighted to hear any info you have..
I trust we are talking about the same Little Hall ?
I'll PM you my email and leave it up to you if you want to stay on this thread or contact me personally.
Rebel