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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Snohomish on Saturday 25 October 14 02:31 BST (UK)
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This is my G Grandfather who immigrated to the United States in about 1880. Prior to that he worked as a Forester at Duff House in Banff, Scotland. He had also authored an article published by the Edinburgh Royal Highland and Agricultural Society of Scotland in TRANSACTIONS 1878 as J.B. Smyth. With your assistance I hope to find who his parents were, date and location of his birth. Information concerning his occupation and education would also be appreciated.
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Welcome to RootsChat :) To give an idea of his age - could this be his death in the district of Columbia, USA in 1906 - born 1847 Scotland? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F7TL-LRW
Kay
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Welcome :)
As Kay notes we really need more information , have you found him on the United States Census ?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x0IuAAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=jb+smyth
The edition I'm looking at was published in 1888
ev
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I'm astonished and very grateful to you Kay 99. That is he and I've been looking for several years .
Estimated Birth year 1847, in Scotland and died at age 59 in District of Columbia, United States. Worked as a clerk in the Government Printing Office.
Thank you also ev. I have the book "TRANSACTIONS" in which his article is published. It's an analysis of using land for sheep, farming, or timber and which will produce the most profit. I don't understand all the mathematical equations and comparisons but it leads me to believe he had a high educational background.
Would give you both the big Smiley if I knew how to get it up there! Thanks again. Snohomish
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Glad the guess proved correct :) As Ev asked - Have you found him or his wife and children in any US census and if so could you give some details? Did he marry in the US or Scotland ?
As he could also be recorded as Smith any info would be useful :)
Edit - A report of his will in the Washington Post May 18 1906 lists him as from Stephen, Marshall, County of Minnesota, but I don't have a sub for the site to check the details http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/28951100/
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Aberdeen Journal, 10-11-1875:
SCOTTISH AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY. - Several of the
prizes awarded by this society for essays on agricultural
subjects have this year come northwards. Mr J B Smyth,
forester, Duff House, Banff, has obtained the first prize for
an essay on the "Pruning of timber trees considered by phy-
siology;" and the only prize awarded for a "Report
on silver firs," and an essay on the "Present state and
future prospects of arboriculture in Fifeshire."
Aberdeen (weekly) Journal, 24-1-1877 (under Highland and Agricultural Society):
£10 to J. B. Smith, forester, Duff House, Banff, for a
Report on the Comparative Return from Capital
Invested in Cropping, Grazing, or Planting Land
upon Hill and Moorland.
Aberdeen Journal, 17-1-1878 (under Highland and Agricultural Society):
It was reported that a premium of £10 had been
awarded to Mr J. B. Smyth, forester, Duff House,
Banff, for a report on the comparative return from
capital invested in cropping, grazing, or ploughing land,
upon hill or moorland.
Interestingly, from the Aberdeen Journal, 15-4-1896 (under Sale of Land on Fife* Estate):
;two crofts at Bythestone -
one by the tenant, John Pirie, and the other
Charles Smith, forester, Duff House, who re-
tires at Whitsunday, after 38 years' ser-
vice.
* Fife here means the estate of the Earl of Fife, based at Duff House
I have looked at the census entries for Charles Smith from 1851 - 1901, but there is no obvious connection with J. B. Smith. Charles Smith was born in King Edward about 1829/30.
If J. B. Smith can write an essay on the prospects of forestry in Fife, he may originally have come from that area. Or was he just good at writing essays?
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Well folks, you've been of some help!. I found the article regarding the Will posted in the Washington Post 05/18/1906. I checked the available Marshall County, Minn. Court Records but to no avail so will call them...it would (should) be in their archives on microfilm. I also checked the Glenwood Cemetary burials but no listing. He had married Hattie Radonski, presumably in Minnesotta. I haven't been able to track that down. They had 3 children. My grandmother and her two brothers Joe b. May 21, 1889, and Ed b. October 5, 1891. in Marshall County, Minnesota. I have my Grandmother's Certificate of Birth (Victoria Clara Smyth). Born in Warren, Marshall County, Minnesota 08/23/1888. She married Samual Thomas Cook in Bellingham. Washington. Hattie had also move to Bellingham where Uncle Joe and Uncle Ed had moved. Uncle Joe and Uncle Ed legally changed their names from (Smyth) to Smith. Everything I've looked at simply states "Scotland" as J.B. Smyth or John Beveridge Smyth's place of birth. It's a fine place to be born but I'd like to find when and where in Scotland and who his parents were. I'll continue digging and perhaps find more information from his death certificate or will.
I am very grateful for your suggestions and research. I believe the will (if available) and perhaps the death certificate will be of help.
I like your closing comment GR2. It appears he may have been somewhat prolific as an author and there must have been some in the agricultural industry, of that time, who could understand his articles!
Thanks to all of you for lending a hand.
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Hi Snohomish
With all the info already found by others and what you have, I wondered whether this entry could be John Smyth already in Marshall Minnesota by 1880. He is visiting and showing as married, so hard to say more for now - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZ9X-M1P
His 1900 census entry with family, in Washington, District of Columbia, and a boarder from Scotland, a Robert Gordon, shows him as potentially having been born in November 1847. Arriving in the US c. 1878 and married in 1888 to Hattie (with 3 children born/alive). A printer by trade. He hadn't applied for Naturalization, so no further checks on documents there (listing out the details here, can't find the family entry for 1900 on Family Search).
Given the age difference between John and Hattie (52 and 33 in 1900, if correct) did wonder whether John could have been married before?
Haven't been able to find any shipping manifests for him so far around those years of the late 1870s , if the info is correct his migration year :-\
Monica
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I note that John is listed as a printer is 1901 and found a family that might be worth looking into in 1871 living at 14, Clunie Street, Banff. All children born Banff
Daniel Smith 54 b Lerwick Shetland Master Mariner
Ann Smith 45 b Aberdeen
Ann Smith 24
John Smith 22 Printer
William Smith 20 Clerk Stamp Office
Daniel G Smith 17 Clerk (General)
Alexander B Smith 13
Elizabeth A Smith 9
James D Smith 6
Ann G Smith 72 Grandmother b Birse, Aberdeenshire
By 1881 John Smith was no longer at home and I can't see him elsewhere. The other children were still clerks with Alexander being a music teacher so not the typical education!
Just a thought if the will/death cert do reveal any information
Edit - I also see that John's birth in 1901 is given as Nov 1849 1847 and a baptism for John Smith in Banff with parents Daniel and Ann on 12 Feb 1849 lists his birth date as 29 Nov 1848
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Kay, not that it matters as we know particularly censuses are very often not precise, the census in the US is in 1900 (1 June). John in his 1900 entry gave his birth detail as Nov 1847 and aged 52 which would fit well with all of that....however, that may not be the correct details as we often see, and he could well have added or taken off years along the way!
He was fond of his middle name Beveridge though wasn't he. Maybe that will also help in trying to find links to a Scottish family entry for him.
Monica :)
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Oops - Many thanks Monica - Typo
Kay
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Kay, been looking at this family that you found of Daniel Smith and Ann Smith (her maiden too..her father was also called Daniel Smith and her mother Ann Grant.). Daniel Smith, father of John born in 1848 was a master mariner. We like the date of their John's birth being in Nov 1848 (not 1847 but we know ages vary).
Trying to make sense of the names, dates and events we have so far for John in the US:
Migration year c. 1878-80, after he won the prizes that GR2 has mentioned?
Possible entry in the 1880 census in Marshall Minnesota https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZ9X-M1P - no way at this stage of firming up. This John Smyth showing as married. I like this entry too as a possible for him as he seems to have been quite specific for him in the spelling of Smyth v. Smith.
Married Hattie Radonski c. 1887-8, going by his 1900 census entry in Washington, District of Columbia - What were her parents' names do you know, Snohomish. Have you been able to find her in 1880?
John and Hattie had 3 children. From your info, Snohomish: My grandmother and her two brothers Joe b. May 21, 1889, and Ed b. October 5, 1891. in Marshall County, Minnesota. I have my Grandmother's Certificate of Birth (Victoria Clara Smyth). Born in Warren, Marshall County, Minnesota 08/23/1888. She married Samual Thomas Cook in Bellingham. Washington. We know they had no more children as on the 1900 census they show as having had 3 children, all living.
From this we have names (which can be important in Scottish genealogy...but not always in order or relevance):
Beveridge - middle name for John, he used it a lot and therefore important to him.
Victoria Clara
Joseph
Edward
Not seeing anything in those names yet connecting back to Scotland as yet...
Monica :)
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Monica - I haven't found Hattie in 1880 either. According to the 1880 census she arrived in 1877 so should be around, but her surname would be easily mistranscribed.
I had seen the John Smyth in 1880 and also given the location it was a good possibility. I do wish there was a 1890 census!
I did wonder whether John was very specific about the spelling of Smyth and the use of a middle initial or name because he had name was such a common name - but just a thought. :)
Kay
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So frustrating isn't it :-\ Whatever we see/find, we have to be able to verify...and struggling with that all at the moment aren't we.
We can be hopeful though... Not sure that the Will will necessarily reveal John's background in Scotland (after c. 26-8 years in the US), likely more about him leaving his assets etc to wife and children (saw a short link on this somewhere on searches). However, not sure what death certs for 1906 in Washington will include in terms of bio of the deceased...parents' info? Not sure.
Monica
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Thank you K99 and MonicaL for your tenacity. Allow me to fall back and regroup! I had never hear of my Grandmother (Victoria) talk of her father, John Beveridge Smyth. Her mother Hattie Smyth and later Oberlatz was sometimes a topic of conversation...in a cheerful way.
Many year ago I was shown a Bible by an Uncle and inscribed on a photograph were these words: "Presented to Mr. J. B. Smyth, Forester. Duff House. By a few friends on the occasion of his leaving the District. Banff 1879." I had always thought that he and Hattie had been divorced and there were still some ill feelings...until the will notations. I found the May 18 1906 Washington Post article on Fold 3 and the article under "City Bulletins" state that the will of John Beveridge Smyth, of Stephen, Marshall County, Minnesota, dated April 12, 1904 was filed yesterday for probate. ...bonds, stocks, and life insurance....are to be divided equally among his three children. ...residue to go to the widow, Mrs. Hattie Smyth." So much for the divorce thought!
I had hoped to order the death certificate online through the Dist. of Columbia website but VitalChek, which provides the service, limits accessibility to only those persons designated by law
There is a provision in law that make the records Public Domain after 50 years but that is not a choice given by VitalChek. I will call them next week before I order it by mail.
The Will may be a little "trickier" I will have to send (by mail) a request for records search in the archives. Then, assuming the Will can be located (probably on microfilm) I send a second request by mail for a copy. Sometimes persistence pays..we'll see. Or may is just the Scot's blood that doesn't want to surrender!
Now to Hattie: I have been in contact with a cousin who has done extensive family research on that side of the family. Hattie Radonski was born in Poland, October 15, 1863 and immigrated with her family to the US in 1880. On June 13, 1884 she had married a Charles J. Davis in Warren, Minnesota. How that marriage ended is unknown. She remarried John Beveridge Smyth sometime between 1886 and 1888 under her maiden name (Radonski) or married name "Davis".
She and John had three children : Victoria Clara Smyth b. 08/23/1888, Warren, Marshall County, Minnesota, Joseph John Smyth, b 05/21/1889, Edward William Smyth b 10/05/1891 ??, Minnesota. Uncle Joe and Uncle Ed had their last names changed to Smith.
I hadn't recognized the disparity in Hattie's and John's ages until you mentioned it MonicaL
I have no hint of a previous marriage by John.
Again, thanks for your tenacity...it's not easy to pry all this loose
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...it's not easy to pry all this loose
Ahh, but that is where the fun lies ;) Thanks for the further info :)
Some hope that if you do get a hold of JB's death entry, there may be some details on his parents (if known to the informant for this death) looking at this info here https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Washington_Vital_Records#Death_Contents
Just a question. You mention a photograph with the farewell note for JB (that certainly looks to confirm likeliest early date of his arrival in the US as being 1879). Was this a photo of JB?
Monica
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Have found a possible shipping manifest entry for John. He seems to like using J B Smyth doesn't he. There is the following entry showing on this crossing, indexed as below:
Mr. J B Smith, born c.1844. Scottish national.
Port of Departure showing as Glasgow, Scotland and Moville, Ireland. Arrived in NY on 24 Mar 1879 on the 'Circassia'
Many of these images for manifests around this time can image poorly (we are happy to have them though nevertheless). This one is no different. A snippet below. The line below his is indexed as a Mr A B Smith. The J from the John (for JB) falls below into the next line. I am wondering whether this could be Mrs A B Smith?
Also the occupation for this JB Smith on the page? My brain in forcing me to see printer or forrester :P Can't see beyond that for now. Might try and find a Mrs and an F letter to compare from this manifest if I can.
ADDED: Now that I blown it up, I see the line below, with a Mr A B Smith, also has the ditto marks under the occupation that shows in the line above for a Mr J B Smith. So not wife then...
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Well found Monica - Just popped in from the garden Would agree that the occupation is more like forester. The age is also difficult to read. I would think his possible relative was 33.
Interesting that most of other passengers had their full names given with no title. JB liked a certain status
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Thanks Kay :) Glad that you see potentially with word Forrester (spelt with 2 r's). We now also have a potential new name, but again also initials!
Monica
Added: Mr A B Smith is indexed as being aged 33 on the manifest: http://castlegarden.org/quick_search_detail.php?p_id=1462540 and for Mr J B Smith here http://castlegarden.org/quick_search_detail.php?p_id=1462541
Just found the above indexes from Castle Garden site. They have them indexed as Forester for occupation. Exciting!
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On second thoughts could A B Smith be 23 instead of 33?? I see he is transcribed as 23
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I think we have a chink of light Kay...let me just gather and type up...!
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:D I had thought A B might be Alexander B born in Banff in 1858 - the child of Daniel and Ann- but after fiddling on Scotlands People I think his middle initial should be G. ???
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Some facts we had on JB that were mentioned by everyone here:
Reference to prizes for his papers c. 1878. GR2 made the ref to the fact he seemed to know a lot about Fife potentially to write his paper....also, very unprecise science from me...but every time I see the surname Beveridge, it always point in my head to Fife area for research!
We know that his occupation was that of a Forester at Duff House before he left Scotland, after 1879 from what is documented.
We have a potential reference now to a Mr J B Smith arriving in the US in 1879, occupation a Forester. Also travelling with him is a Mr A B Smith, also a Forester by occupation.
1900 census gave his birth month as November. Birth year has ranged from 1847-49.
So, with all of the above, I would like to put up my favourite candidate so far, a John Smith born November 1844 (matching the manifest birth year and 1900 census birth month) in CARNBEE, FIFE. Parents David Smith and mother a Christina BEVERIDGE. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTNZ-VK3
We need to fill in blanks, but there is this 1871 census entry showing:
John Smith 27, Forrester, b. Carnee Fife
Isabella Smith 30 Forresters Wife b. Cornback, fifeshire
David Smith 7
Thomas Smith 3
Elizbeth Smith 2
Address: Windmill, Collesie, Fife
And that is as far as I have got so far...
Monica
Added: Kay, that G for the Banff Alexander is for Grant I think. Maternal Grandmother's maiden name.
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That looks very promising ;D
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It does doesn't it...exciting always when you get push forward ;)
This looks to be the marriage of John Smith to Isabella METHVEN in 1863 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRC-JLM
Children's births:
David 1863 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYT5-NLS
Thomas 1867 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY1K-L84
Elizabeth 1869 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY5G-8X2
Then we have 1871 census above...and after that, no more children showing for them on Family Search. Also, no death showing on the index for an Isabella Smith/Methven (with * for wildcard spellings).
If we have the right John, could Isabella and children have followed him after 1879? We have that possible 1880 entry in Minnesota for a married John Smyth showing as a farmer. There are no other Sm*ths showing in Minnesota in 1880 born in Scotland from what I could see (amazingly for a common surname).
Need to try and find a Mr A B Smith born c. 1848 don't we ::) and the rest!
Monica
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I think AB was actually born in 1856 and this John's parents David and Chistian did have an Alexander in 1856
Alexander Smith
Birth 23 Apr 1855 Carnbee,Fife,Scotland
Father: David Smith
Mother: Christina Beveridge
Edit - However this Alexander is still in Fife in 1881 - working as a carpenter with wife Agnes
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Not getting the Mr A B Smith yet either. Been trying to look for a manifest for possibly Isabella with children post 1879 if we have the right John etc. Not yet seeing anything and think I am searched out now :P
Monica
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Back later - Need to put a meal on and the hens need feeding.
Kay
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;D People and hens always come first! Go, Kay. I am currently Sat boys' football widow...sigh! My youngest girl and I are watching on Sky 'Don't tell the Bride' :-X
Monica
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Basic's done. My OH has cleared out the garage today for the first time in 30 years -and put up shelves :o
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He must have been inspired by our enthusiam for the Forester Smiths from so long ago :o ;)
Monica
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I have been looking at another John Smith, forester at Ayton in Fife, but he can be ruled out. David Smith and Christian/Christina Beveridge were still alive and in Carnbee at the time of the 1891 census.
I'm pretty sure you have the correct man. John Smith and Isabella Methven married at Dairsie, Fife, 12-6-1863.
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Thanks for the comments GR2 :) I am also really happy you think we have potentially the right John B Smith.
Still puzzled about the Mr A B Smith on the 1879 manifest though...given that John brother's Alexander, a joiner (fits with working with wood?! and forests) is in Scotland for 1881. Did he travel with brother and then come back by 1881? If he is Mr A B in 1879, age 23 or 33?!
Just for now, these are the census entries for David Smith and Christina Beveridge in the early days:
1851:
David Smith 35
Christian Smith 27
John Smith 7 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTNZ-VK3
Margaret Smith 5 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTNZ-G24
Christian Smith 3 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTNZ-NLG
Helen Smith 9 Months https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTNZ-NQX
1861:
David Smith 45 Agricultural labourer Carnbee, Fife
Christian Beveridge 37
Margaret Smith 15
Christian Smith 13
Helen Smith 11
Alexander Smith 5 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYF-54V
Address: Arncroach, Carnbee, Fife
1871:
David Smith 55, Carter, b. Carnbee, Fife
Christine Smith 47 b. Newburn, Fife
Alexr Smith 15 b. Carnbee, Fife
Jean Smith 3 b. Carnbee, Fife...a late baby...https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYPT-KJL
Address: Arncroach, Carnbee, Fife
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYF-54V
Some lost years on children. Likely early deaths, such as here from 1862 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYF-LVB
Have to admit, I get so hooked on these long drawn out sagas, where the search is hard and confusing :P ;D
Monica
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Enterprising man this John Smith. 1861 has him as:
John Smith, 17, Blacksmith b. Carnbee Fife at East Of Fife Road, Kilconquhar, Fife. Boarding at the household of Margaret Gourlay and family.
So, for John, we have him on censuses:
1851 - with family
1861 - boarding as above
1871 - with wife Isabella Methven and children
1881 - potentially in Minnesota
1901 - with Hattie and family
Monica
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Maybe 1885. Listed as JP? Smith age 39 b Scotland- living in Taramac, Marshall, Minnesota and the Post Office is Stephen!! Sadly no more details are given
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12342-10243-87?cc=1503044
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Maybe no more details Kay, but that has to be our JP does't it. Well done for finding that one :)
Monica
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:) But no sign of any wife or children.
Kay
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Christian/Christina Beveridge's place of birth is given variously as Largo, Newburn and Carnbee. Her year of birth, based on the censuses lies within 1823-1827. As Newburn is given in two censuses, she may be the Christian born 12-11-1823 to Alexander Beveridge and Christian Lumsden, and baptised 23-11-1823.
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Meant to post this all yesterday, but Castle Garden site not up and running. It is a good way of showing individual entries on manifests often.
For John and Isabella (Methven), we had the following children:
David 1863
Thomas 1867
Elizabeth 1869
We then have him likely travelling over to the US in 1879, potentially with his brother Alexander we think: Mr J B Smith here http://castlegarden.org/quick_search_detail.php?p_id=1462541
We then have a John Smyth showing on the 1880 census in Minnesota as already linked, showing as married but not with family members.
I think I have now found wife Isabella and daughter Elizabeth and a recently born Jane travelling to the US, from Glasgow on the 'Anchoria'. They arrived there on 4 May 1880 (just some weeks before the US 1880 census). This is the index link for them all (except for Robert and Thomas who I can't see on this manifest):
http://castlegarden.org/search_02.php?row=1&p_first_name=&p_last_name=smith&co_country=&province=&town=&o_occ=&m_ship=anchoria&po_port=&m_arr_date_end=1880&m_arr_date_start=1880&sort=DESC&type=p_first_name
Now for the 1880 census....
We think JB's partner on his 1879 crossing could be his brother Alexander. His brother Alexander shows back in Scotland for the Scottish 1881 census...so we wondered whether the brother Alexander could have returned to Scotland after his US stay?
Just found this US 1880 entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MD26-JB2 Looks like Isabella, children Thomas (how did he get there?!), Elizabeth and Jane are staying with Alexander SMYTH, which we like too ;) The Edgertons are boarders and Heggie is domestic servant. The Alexander on this entry shows as single.
Monica
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For background, this is the entry that Kay mentioned earlier for Alexander on the Scottish 1881 census:
Alexander Smith 25 Carpenter Master Employing On Boy b. Carnbee, Fife
Agnes Crosbie 25 b. Dumfries, Maxwelltown
Bella P Smith 3 b. Edinburgh
Margaret Smith 1 b. Edinburgh
Janet Smith 4 Months b. Dairsie
George Smith 15 brother Carpenter's Apprentice b. Ceres, Fife
Address: Foodieash, Dairsie, Fife
Alexander, wife Agnes Crosbie and family left Scotland in 1908 for Vancouver, BC:
Alexander Smith 55 agent
Agnes Smith 55
George Smith 29 carpenter
Robert Smith 18 carpenter
Isabella Smith 33
Margaret Smith 32
Agnes Smith 24
William Johnston 37 boarder
Monica
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Now for the 1880 census....
Just found this US 1880 entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MD26-JB2 Looks like Isabella, children Thomas (how did he get there?!), Elizabeth and Jane are staying with Alexander SMYTH, which we like too ;) The Edgertons are boarders and Heggie is domestic servant. The Alexander on this entry shows as single.
Monica
Brilliant - With husband John away in Minnisota at the time :D
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Hi Kay :)
I think Isabel and children are still in Riverton, Fremont, Iowa for the 1885 census there. As indexed and all born in Scotland. Can't see original, just the index:
Isabel 34
Thomas 17
Elizabeth 6
Jane 6
Monica
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....if we have the right family for JB, first wife Isabel alive and well (we hope in health at least ::)) in 1895. Maybe this is why there is no marriage to be found for JB to Hattie...
From the Riverton, 1895 census index:
Isabell Smith 52
Lizzie Smith 23
Jennie Smith 15
They are the only Scottish born Smiths in Riverton so pretty straightforward to see them together on the index.
Monica
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Which could be the reason that there is no sign of a marriage for John B and Hattie
Kay
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What a fascinating thread to read! Cracking research.
The Iowa state census for 1885 is on Family Search. You can see originals there. Elizabeth Smith is working with the Hatton family aged 16. The original images don't add a great deal more other than indicating if parents foreign born.
Other observation is that Isabella's birth year is rather different in the two censuses.
William
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Maybe a reason to go to Fremont County?
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~iabiog/fremont/f1881/f1881-riverton.htm
see the entry for Jane Buttercase
Jen
Edit: just adding the marriage for Jane Beveridge and Robert Buttercase - Carnbee,Fife,Scotland ;)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTPS-in 851
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Hi William :)
Good to have your comments here now.
Have to admit...I am stuck now :P
My wish list now would be to find a birth cert for a Jean/Jane Smith c. 1878-9 to firm up parents...nearly 300 on SP for the whole of Scotland when I did a general search :'( Robert, first born, we have nothing on so far apart from birth and 1871, that is it.
I think wife Isabel Methven may have died between 1895...1900. Can't really see her on the 1900. Iowa, unlike other states in the US, not so easy to research and view records online around this time...or at least my ignorance of vital record sources for then shines through 8)
Monica
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Hi Jen :)
Thanks for the link. The forester/carpenter etc references certainly do look strong don't they for the area. Also connecting back too to Alexnder, brother of John. Alexander seems to have prospered with his carpentry business showing as a contractor and later agent (think real estate in Canada) in future years.
Wonder how Isabell with the children managed if John did go off to start a new life...
Monica
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Just a thought. Would Jane Smith's birth be most likely to have been registered in Banffshire or Fife? There are 10 Jane Smith births in Banffshire in 1878 - 79 and no Jeans. There are 15 Jane Smith births in Fife and one for a Jean Smith in those years. Which are the most likely parishes in those counties?
William
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Hard to say on where the family were in that period of the 1870s, William :-\
We have them on the 1871 census as below:
John Smith 27, Forrester, b. Carnee Fife
Isabella Smith 30 Forresters Wife b. Cornback, fifeshire
David Smith 7
Thomas Smith 3
Elizbeth Smith 2
Address: Windmill, Collesie, Fife
Then no more children showing for them (but this is only on Family Search, which is not a 100% in terms of an index) until we potentially have another daughter Jane aged 18 months on that May 1880 shipping manifest.
We have JB, with references to him being a forester at Duff House, Banff in the period of c. 1878-79, from what GR2 and Snohomish have mentioned from references for him then.
That is it really in terms of place references so far. Robert, Thomas and Elizabeth all born in the Fife area from what we saw on IGI.
I take risks and gambles sometimes looking at SP entries online with research for people. Not something we can do here I would say given the names and the number of entries sadly...
Monica
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You have been busy. :) I had a look at a few options of Jane/Jean on Scotlands People but there are a lot of options. The other three children were all born in different places. I have been trying to find a marriage for one of the children in the USA naming their father - but no luck so far :-\
Kay
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Corrections and edits:
Something that was bugging me from yesterday and perfect proof why guesses are guesses until you verify through documents and actual sources...
I do not think the Alexander we have back in Scotland in 1881, married to Agnes and a carpenter by trade, is JB's brother. I noticed yesterday on the entries above for 1881 for Alexander that he had a brother George born in the mid 1860s in Ceres, Fife. We haven't come across a brother George for JB so far. 1871 that we had earlier, again below.
1871:
David Smith 55, Carter, b. Carnbee, Fife
Christine Smith 47 b. Newburn, Fife
Alexr Smith 15 b. Carnbee, Fife
Jean Smith 3 b. Carnbee, Fife...a late baby...https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYPT-KJL
Address: Arncroach, Carnbee, Fife
I think the Alexander and brother George that we are discussing are the children of a George Smith and Margaret Brown:
Alexander 1855 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYF-54L
George 1866 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYB6-NQH
Co-incidence that their Alexander has same birth year and place as did JB's brother Alexander - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYF-54V. Maybe they were cousins ;D
Also, the Alexander Smyth on the 1880 census that we also have, with Isabel and children staying with in Riverton, also showed as single...
Monica
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Hi Monica - I've got a bug too :)
Senario...Jane Buttercase - whom I take to be John and Alexander's aunt has lost hubbie and both her sons. Her daughters are both married to men with careers outwith of farming. So does she invite her nephews to help run the farm? If John and Alexander both go out together in 1879 and Isabella arrives in 1880 why is John in Minnesota rather than Iowa in 1880? Like you mentioned before, the time between her arrival and the taking of the census is weeks rather than months. Plenty of work to do on a farm in May.
This next story is just strange....Smyth is a rather uncommon name in Scotland going by the census returns at least. Now there is one J B Smyth I found whose father is (very spookily) is a Clerk in the Government Printing Office. This J B Smyth was born around 1850 and at 21 is still a scholar and a student so rather well educated - the type of person you'd expect to find writing scholarly articles don't you think. However, this person is called Jane B Smyth!
Back to 61 and King Edward - only about 18 more pages to transcribe - yipeee!
Jen
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There are lots on angles to this story aren't they, which is why it is an interesting search.
Are you transcribing for FreeCen? Sounds like you are...clever you :)
Monica
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Monica - I think you are right about the Alexander who married Agnes Crosbie being the son of George and Margaret and it certainly solves the problem of the Alexander in USA having a child born while he was away in the US.
Kay
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Not so clever just thought it would be good to give something back to the community given all the help I've had :).
I wish I could get my hands on the writings of J B Smyth but unfortunately I can find nothing to read online :( I did read an interesting account of some of the artifacts held at Duff House - that kind of wealth is almost unimaginable!
Jen
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Jen, I could only find one easy ref to content of JB's paper. This comes up toward the end of another long article and it is only a snippet from the original:
Forestry.
In his excellent paper on "The Comparative Return from Capital invested in Cropping, Grazing, or Planting Land upon Hill and Moorland," published in the Transactions of the Highland and Agricultural Society for 1878, Mr J. B. Smith says— "Again and again the cry comes to us across the Atlantic that the forest primeval is being recklessly demolished, and that in a few short years its timber producing wealth will be exhausted. At home, in these days of high wages (as compared with the social and political condition of the working classes even fifty years ago), when the ruling axioms should be, ' quick productions and quick returns,' these doubtless ought to form the basis of all profitable enterprises. Though many of our noblemen and gentry derive a good income from their plantations alone, for which they have their ancestors to thank, and though the home demand for timber, and foreign imports, are both still on the increase, we yet find them doing little or nothing for posterity in the way of planting."
www.electricscotland.com/agriculture/page64.htm
Monica
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Finally caught up with our John Smith in print through the Scottish Arboricultural Society. Just had a quick look at v.7-8 1873-1878
https://archive.org/details/transactionsofsc78scot
In the list of members he starts out as John Smith, Windmill Cottages, Ladybank, Fife (his address on the 71 census) :))
then the next year he's down as John B Smyth, Melville, Ladybank, Fife
By the time he writes his article on pruning (highly recommended for all you insomniacs out there) he's the forester at Duff House.
Jen
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Jen, thank you :-* That is a direct hit to the 1871 entry! No need to wander any more in the wilderness of Smiths on BMD entries ;D
Kay and I have obsessed on JB for a few days...you and William have joined us too, which is great ;)
Snohomish...log back on soon. Lots has happened... :D
I am happy now :) (as I continue working on up loading to flickr at the moment, with hiccups, driving me mad today :-\).
Monica
PS: I don't normally do so many smileys on a post as they get a bit OTT :-X But, I am so happy with the way this search has gone!
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Jenny - Well found ;D.
Kay
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Greetings Kay 99, MonicaL, Jennywren001, and all others who have worked so hard to assist me in this adventure. First of all, I want to apologize for plastering all those smiley's on your hard work. I had no idea I was doing it and I appreciate the tact that was used in bringing it to my attention. Thank you.
I have ordered John's death certificate through VitalChek. I called them first due to some forceful displeasure expressed on a related website and I hope I haven't forfeited $42 for little results. I have also ordered his Probate # and hope to obtain a copy of his will..that'll take some doing.
I am attaching a photo of a photo I took over ten years ago after relocating it. It is of John, Hattie, Joe, Ed, and Victoria Clara Smyth (my grandmother) The picture was taken in Washington, D.C. and although it's difficult to read it looks like it was taken at a "Howky" photo studio. I have posted another photograph on RootsChat, Oct.25, as "Cook/McDonald Photograph? that was taken in Dundee before the turn of the Century and your research and the seemingly connections to Fife want me to believe that that photo is actually, John, brother, sister, and their mother. (It's so easy to jump to conclusions to meet the circumstances!)
The second attachment is from the Table of Contents of TRANSACTIONS, Fourth Series, Volume X.
And, Jennywren001...the book is avaiable Free at http://books.google.com as a preservation project.
I had it printed by an Espresso Book Machine (www.ondemandbooks.com). I tried to wade trhough
his article but just couldn't keep interested because of the complexity and the fictional dialogue. It's a tough read Jennywren001! Maybe Jane B. Smyth co-wrote it...the little girl in the Dundee photo? I think too, his inclination to use" Beveridge" is significant..it meant something special to him. My Uncles changed their names to Smith from Smyth and I wish I knew what motivated them to do that---
I'm going to try to move the "Cook/Mcdonald?" to this location and it may open more doors or remove it and send it as an attachment to this file.
You've all worked your hearts out on this quest and, although I'll no longer inundate you with "smileys", I want you to know how much I appreciate your efforts.
Snohomish
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It is always great to see photos of the people we have been discussing so thank you for adding that.
What did you think about the possibility of a first wife in the US with at least 3 children travelling with her? Lots to research there for you and your family hopefully.
Not sure whether you need anything further from this particular post in respect of where it is now at. Let us know if you need help going back further. Looks like you are ready to really start your Scottish research now...
Monica
PS: The 'smilieys' comment was meant for me not you ::) ;) ;D
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Great photograph - John certainly looks distinguished :)
Do come back if there are more issues
Kay
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Thanks Monica..it's still a good lesson for me. ;D!
Thanks Kay...you can see the whole photo by clicking on the attachment data at the bottom left of the picture (you probably already knew that!)
Enjoy "Transactions"!
Thanks everyone..Tenacity and skill prevails