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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: Jeffrey on Saturday 25 October 14 21:31 BST (UK)
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Dear All,
I am really stuck with Elizabeth Jennet Thomas born around 1871 or 1881.
On her marriage certificate in Gloucester in 1907 she is down as 25 or 26(difficult to tell) years which puts her birth year at 1881/82
However on the 1911 Census her husband has put her age at 40 years which means she was born 1871. I am not too sure he knows any ones ages as he has both daughters ages out by a year. So I am inclined towards 1881/2.
She married Thomas Rees aged 46 of Mount Stuart Square Cardiff.
She was staying at 1 Pilot St Gloucester. They were both of Wales and although he says he is a widower in fact he is a divorcee.
The only Place of birth I can find for her is on the 1911 Census where it says Breconshire.
On her marriage Cert the name of her father is John Thomas and his occupation is down as Hotel Proprietor. Deceased.
Thomas and Elizabeth already have one child born 1806.
She is known as Eliz Rees on the 1911 Census and Bessie Jennet Rees on one of her daughters birth certificates.
Any help gratefully received as I am totally stuck.
Thank you.
Judy
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Hi Judy, I can see a birth of an Elizabeth Jennet Thomas March qtr 1878 Builth 11b 85 on the 1881 she has parents John 34 and Mary A 43 and siblings at Penybont Cottage, Llanfihangel-Abergwessin, Builth, Breconshire Census Ref RG11/5453/71/14
On this census John is shown as a Farmer though?
Keyboard86
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Thanks for the reply.
Yes I have seen that one but it just didn't seem quite right with the father being a farmer.
Will have another look. Wonder where they are in the next census.
Judy
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I'm wondering if this is them in 1891 - there is a Thomas Davies, stepson, with the family on 1881 who fits this one. Elixabeth's sisters on 1881 were born Llanwrtyd, and mother from Radnorshire. Don;t think the relationships are correct
Mary Thomas 58 - widow b Radnor. Licensed Victuallar, Welsh Harp, Dowlais
Anthony Davies 31 - b Llanvabon, breconshire
William Davies 28 - b Llanvabon, breconshire
Thomas Davies 25 - b Llanvabon, breconshire
John Davies 19 - step son b LLanwrtyd
Elizabeth Thomas 14 - b LLanwrtyd daughter-in-law
following Anthony back, the Davies are in Abergwesyn in 1871
RG12, 4439, 94, 25
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from Merthyr Express, 4 Jan 1883
ENDORSEMENT.—The license of the Welsh Harp, Dowlais, was endorsed from Mary Davies to John Thomas.
John Thomas was later convicted of selling cigars without a licence
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Thank you for your replies.
Have been busy last week. Think it will need more research to try and prove it. Would feel better if the father was a Hotel/Inn proprietor on the census.
Judy
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Hi,
I just see this post, from a while ago...
I happen to search William Davies, son of Mary (maiden name Lloyd) Davies ( spouse of Isaac Davies, mason), remarried to John Thomas ( farmer).
William Davies was my 2x great grand father. He managed the Robin Hood in Dowlais before helping his mother ( Mary Thomas at the time) to manage the Welsh Harp. I traced the Davies till in Breconshire where they were from.
I am curious to know what you have found about the family?
Best wishes,
Isabelle
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Thank you for the reply Isabelle and welcome to rootschat,
I haven't done much more research on this family but your post has spurred me on.
Are you able to tell me when Mary (Nee LLoyd/ Davies) Thomas died? or when her husband died & she remarried to John Thomas. I am maybe thinking that was around the early 1870's.
I see the Welsh Harp at Dowlais was sold in 1898 leading me to believe she either moved out or that Mary had died then.
I will have to have some time to work this out and see if the Elizabeth J Thomas I am looking for is the same as this one. I am beginning to think there may be a possibility.
Judy
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Hi Judy,
Actually I have just received the death certificate of Isaac Davies, he died in 1867, just the year after the birth of his son Thomas Davies ( 1866). I discovered on the birth certificates of their children that her full name was Mary "Anne" Lloyd.
On the census they only write Mary, except on the 1881 Census of Llanfihangel where you can see her as wife of John Thomas. John Thomas has 3 children from a previous marriage:Sarah A. Thomas, Age 8; Margaret J. Thomas, Age 4; Elizabeth J. Thomas, Age 3.
Thomas Davies, 15, is also living with them. He is Mary "Anne" Davies/Lloyd younger son.
On the 1891 Census in Merthyr T, we can see Mary Thomas, her 3 sons, and Elizabeth Thomas ( the age is correct).There is also a John Davies, stated as her step son... not quite sure who he is. I can't see him on any other census. I followed them since 1841.
I think I did find a marriage for a Mary Ann and John Thomas in 1880.
I don't know when Mary Thomas died yet but I believe it could be around the time you mentioned 1898, or maybe she simply moved.
I will check again and come back to you,
Isabelle
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Thank you for the information.
I just can not prove who Elizabeth Jennet Thomas is one way or the other.
She is a mystery.
Judy
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The Elizabeth on the Censuses that were mentioned above ( not only in my post) is Elizabeth "Jannet" Thomas born in 1878, Q1, mother maiden name: William. Jannet and not Jennet... That might be why she is a mistery...
I have seen there are other Elizabeth Jennet Thomas... So you are maybe not on the right track.
Happy to help if I can.
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Thanks again for your post. Good to know her mothers surname thank you.
We have been researching her now for a number of years and getting no where so while her name appears to be spelt 'Jennet' then we are researching other spellings too.
It's odd on her marriage entry in 1906 she is recorded as Elizabeth 'Janet' Thomas then she must have signed it Elizabeth 'Jennet' Thomas but the registrar has crossed it out and inserted Janet and initialled it.
On two of her children's births she registered she called herself 'Jennet'. However on the birth that her husband registered he called her 'Bessie Janet'.
It says on her Marriage Certificate that her father was John Thomas, deceased, Hotel Proprietor.
There have been quite a few irregularities about the family and like many they appear to have been economical with the truth at times.
We can find no death for her either under the name of 'Rees' her married name or 'Thomas' her maiden name. But the last we have any identified address for her it was at 10 Huggin Lane, Canons Street. London in 1917.
So we are researching at all spellings of her name just to make sure.
Any ideas gratefully received.
Judy
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Through DNA we have now had a link to the family of Elizabeth Jennet Thomas. I have traced them to the family that we have been posting about at The Welsh Harp.
Looks like this is our Elizabeth Jennet Thomas - father John Thomas and mother Ann Williams.
Have just ordered her birth certificate.
Thank you all for your help
Judy
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It looks like Elizabeth Jennet Thomas b1878 had 2 full sisters however I am unable to find either of them after the 1881 Census.
Sarah A Thomas c1873 born Llanwrytyd Breconshire
Margaret J (orI) Thomas c1877 born Llanwrytyd Breconshire
in the 1891 Census they are not with their sister Elizabeth & their stepmother Mary at The Welsh Harp.
Any help gratefully received.
Thank you
Judy
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There's a Sarah Ann Thomas aged 18 working as a servant in Cwmdare in 1891 - place of birth is Glan Irfon (Irfon Vallley) which would cover Abergwesyn
Ref Piece 4442, folio 67, p9
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John Thomas, Welsh HArp died 17 Sept 1889 aged 42. Son of Isaac Thomas, formerly of Cymcynach, Abergwesyn (who lives in Hirwaun and is respected by and and a faithful Baptist)/ JT came to Dowlais from Llanwrtyd and Llangamarch about 9 years previously when he was a tall, fine looking man having spent his early years in agriculture in the Wrtyd lowlands. Then hit by TB
The newspaper article goes on a bit more but doesn't help much on the family
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There's also a snippet in Seren Cymru from August 1884 which mentions the death of the 11 year old son (un-named) of Mr and Mrs Thomas, Welsh Harp, Dowlais and that it was only 3 moths since the burial of his dear sister
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Thank you. That is really good information which despite looking in the newspapers I have missed.
Could you tell me which newspaper site you got the information from please.
Thank you for the Census info too. It may be her. I find the names of the villages in Breconshire around that area are very difficult as they seem to be very close and interlinked.
Appreciate the time taken to help me. :D
Judy
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The site is https://newspapers.library.wales/home - Welsh Newspapers Online. The two articles in question are in Welsh, hence my not including links as I wasn't sure that would be of much use
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Thank you Mabel. You are right - I am unable to read Welsh. But thank you for interpreting them for me. If you come across any more then I would be grateful for them.
Judy
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Just received her birth Certificate.
Born 9th Dec 1877 at Kelsey (or Helsey) Llanfihangel, Abergwessin
Father John Thomas and mother Ann Thomas formerly Williams. Fathers occupation Farmer. Registered by him 8th Jan 1879.
I presume the Kelsey or Helsey was maybe a farm. Does anyone know where on the map that is located?
Judy
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I suspect it may be Celsau
I looked up their 1881 location Penybont in the parish of Llanfihangel Abergwesin on the Historic Placenames of Wales site, and on the map, about one field to the north of the red place marker, you can see that name attached to what may be a farm
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/b56a6a13-34a4-494a-863d-a70bb215b3df
It still exists
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Have looked and think you are right there as spellings were not standardised in those days and people spelt a word as it sounded often. I am finding the Welsh names of villages difficult.
Is that anywhere near to where his father came from Hirwaun?
Thank you again for your help.
Judy
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No. Hirwaun is near Aberdare, and not that far (next valley over) from Merthyr and Dowlais, at the north end of the industrial south wales valleys.
Abergwesyn was then, and still is, a very rural area. It's about 50 miles north.
Although Isaac Thomas was living in Hirwaun when his son died, censuses indicate he was born in Llangammarch. IN 1881 he was a farmer of 136 acres at a farm called Ffosyrhyddod, between Abergwesin and LLangammarch
Some information I've come across suggests John's sister and her husband farmed near Hirwaun. Isaac may well have moved to be near her. The youngest son Isaac Morgan Thomas took on the farm
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Hi Mabel,
Apologies for late reply - I have been away.
But thank you again for the information. All the bits about the family puts some 'meat on the bones' and makes them more personal.
Judy