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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: DebNZ on Tuesday 28 October 14 21:18 GMT (UK)
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Good morning from New Zealand
I'm looking for any details about James A Meddings who married Stuart (sometimes spelt Stewart, Stewert) Easton Morgan in Gateshead in 1916. Other than this marriage entry, i can find no other information about James.
Stuart married again in 1917 so it is possible that James died shortly after the marriage except that the man she married the second time became a serial bigamist and she herself married a third time at the end of 1917 in New Zealand so she wasn't averse to a little bigamy herself.
Any info on James would be much appreciated.
Cheers
DebNZ
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Who does James name as his father when he marries? What age is he, what occupation? Address? In fact all the clues from the marriage cert would help.
If you havent got a copy, then if this marriage is as you say your only lead, then first step I guess must be to get a copy of the cert.
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I think you need to buy the marriage certificate as although there are a few trees around that claim to have him on they actually don't and have made a wrong connection, therefore the information from the marriage certificate would seem to be vital (could be Meddings is a corruption of the real name)
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Well I have discovered that James Alexander Meddings was born in Australia in 1883, that he and Stuart Easton Morgan were still married for the next two of her marriages. Ooops!
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Good evening all
I'm looking for any details about James Alexander Meddings who married Stuart (sometimes spelt Stewart, Stewert) Easton Morgan in Gateshead, Durham in 1916. James was born in Victoria in 1883 and went to war in 1915 and was sent home again in 1918 according to his war record.
Stuart married again in 1917 so I thought it possible that James died shortly after the marriage until I discovered he was definitely still alive in 1918. The man she married the second time became a serial bigamist and she herself married a third time at the end of 1917 in New Zealand so she wasn't averse to a little bigamy herself.
Any info on James would be much appreciated.
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There is a death in NSW that looks like him:
MEDDINGS James age 48yrs d. 1929 WILCANNIA #5661
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
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What was your evidence for him still living in 1918?
Sue
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Sue, it's on his service records ;)
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=205807
http://dhistory.org/archives/naa/items/8006751/
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Newspaper report on his death states he was a returned soldier born Echuca:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article46066921
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Birth:
James Alexander MEDDINGS b. 1883 WHAR #8815
Father: George
Mother: Margaret NICHOLSON
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Hi there,
Perhaps I am missing something here, But I can see the 1916 marriage was the third quarter of 1916, but I can also see from his AIF papers that he only arrived in England 14 June 1916, and that was because he required hospitalisation for a Gun Shot Wound –arm. At that time he was meant to be under Field Punishment No. 2 for 56 days from about 5 May 1916. So, he was not meant to receive leave to “go gallivanting” until say early July, 1916 (add, 3rd Quarter commences July, and includes August and September)
He was marched out FROM No 2 CD Weymouth 28 Oct 1916 TO No. 3 CD (Com Depot) at Wool (likely as in Woolwich,)
I think this is the marriage registration :
James A MEDDINGS
Stewart E MORGAN
and it was registered in the 3rd Quarter of 1916 AT Gateshead, Durham 10A/1325.
In the AIF papers his wife is noted as Mrs J A Meddings (not as Stewart or variations) and an address at Gateshead with the date noted as 31 Oct 1918 (4th Quarter 1916) . Also again from those papers, James changed his Next of Kin paperwork 28 November 1916.
So have you carefully checked the GRO marriage certificate signature with the AIF papers that include James’ signature just to double check re the apparent bigamous matters.
Also, have you checked to see if the marriage was negatived in any way ..... any notes on that GRO record? In NSW, Australia, when a marriage was terminated by any NSW Supreme Court action, a note of that action was made on the registration, perhaps more towards the left hand margin. I am not sure of the GRO practices.
Cheers, JM
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Related thread on the Durham Board
topics merged
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Also posted on the Australia board
topics merged
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Stuart married again in 1917 ...... The man she married the second time became a serial bigamist and she herself married a third time at the end of 1917 in New Zealand so she wasn't averse to a little bigamy herself.
So are you saying she married in the 3rd Quarter of 1916, and then in 1917 she married someone else, and then she went to New Zealand and at the end of 1917 she married a third time?
May I ask how she travelled to New Zealand at a time of war? Passports were required by British Subjects to allow them to leave the UK basically from the commencement of WWI. What name did she travel under to New Zealand? Husband No 1 or Husband No 2 or another name ?
Cheers, JM
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I think this is the marriage registration :
James A MEDDINGS
Stewart E MORGAN
and it was registered in the 3rd Quarter of 1916 AT Gateshead, Durham 10A/1325.
In the AIF papers his wife is noted as Mrs J A Meddings (not as Stewart or variations) and an address at Gateshead with the date noted as 31 Oct 1918 (4th Quarter 1916) . Also again from those papers, James changed his Next of Kin paperwork 28 November 1916.
It was the common practice in the UK, until fairly recent times, to address a wife as "Mrs" followed by her husbands initials/name?! ::)
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"....Stuart married again in 1917........... The man she married the second time became a serial bigamist .....
....she herself married a third time at the end of 1917 in New Zealand
Can you identify these two marriages please...when, where and who.
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Yes, I understand that, same in Australia, and I am old enough to have received snail mail in that form, but the AIF papers by referring to James wife as Mrs J A MEDDINGS do not help join the dots for the bride that our OP is naming.
It was the common practice in the UK, until fairly recent times, to address a wife as "Mrs" followed by her husbands initials/name?! ::)
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"....Stuart married again in 1917........... The man she married the second time became a serial bigamist .....
....she herself married a third time at the end of 1917 in New Zealand
Can you identify these two marriages please...when, where and who.
THis question is also being asked on the Australia Board.
I think these two threads should be merged - or one of them locked.
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Something is still wrong....
What was the surname of Husband No. 2 ..... was it also MEDDINGS .... as here is a possible NZ marriage but with the surname MEDDINGS. Alas, it was not at the end of 1917, as it was 3 October 1917, and likely there would be an ITM (Intention to Marry) record noting their status/es and how long each were resident prior to that marriage.
Marriage registration at NZ BDM online
Stewart Easton MEDDINGS and Vernon George COLLINS was 3 October 1917. What does the NZ BDM Printout show for that marriage?
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
Cheers, JM
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Can you identify the "second" and "third" marriages that you have found please?
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I can see a Stewart E MORGAN marriage to Claude MILNE, registered 2nd quarter 1917,(April, May June) registration at Warminster, Wiltshire. 5a/273
So if this is the same 'bride' each time, then she could not have left for NZ until after that marriage.
How would the AIF chap have travelled from Weymouth 28 Oct 1916 to marry at Gateshead and be back at Woolwich without any apparent furlough being noted on his AIF papers? Perhaps I have missed the furlough?
Cheers, JM
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Stuart married again in 1917........... The man she married the second time became a serial bigamist ....she herself married a third time at the end of 1917 in New Zealand
Can you identify these two marriages please...when, where and who.
Possible marriages in the UK:
1. http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=136318547:9835&d=bmd_1412239200
2. http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=137673023:0786&d=bmd_1412239200
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Can you identify the "second" and "third" marriages that you have found please?
Possible marriages in the UK:
1. http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=136318547:9835&d=bmd_1412239200
2. http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=137673023:0786&d=bmd_1412239200
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Hi
Stuart Easton Morgan's parents would appear to have been James Llewellyn Morgan and Elizabeth Carmichael. Suggest you find the 1911 census for James Morgan in Gateshead and look at address and compare with the address given for Mrs J A Meddings on James Meddings service record.
There is a birth for Stuart Easton Morgan in West Calder, Midlothian, Scotland in 1893. You can download the birth cert(credits only site) which will confirm names of parents. Do you have the names of her parents from NZ records? If so this would help to confirm it is the same person.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
William
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National Probate Calendar has -
death 3 Aug 1935 James Llewellyn MORGAN, 8 Mafeking St, widow Elizabeth Steele MORGAN
death 16 Jun 1946 Elizabeth Steele MORGAN, 8 Mafeking St.
same address on WW1 record.
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BDM NZ death
1979 / 39183 COLLINS Molly Stuart Easton 3 April 1896
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Wow - got up this morning and such a lot to reply to!
Firstly - Molly Stuart Easton Collins is nothing to do with this family.
Yes, the sequence of Marriages is Meddings, Milne, Collins. Collins is my family and family story was that she came home "ön the boat"with Vernon George Collins having had a marriage with an ölder man"named Meddings who had died before she met Vernon. This would be why she married Vernon under the name Meddings I guess. That was the story as it lay until last weekend when someone contacted me via my website to tell me that her uncle Claude Milne had also married Stuart in England.
Looking at Meddings war records you can see he was not exactly a model soldier and I don't find it odd that he was married during all the things that took place in 1916. I do find it odd that somehow Stuart married Claude Milne while she was still married to him though and THEN that she sailed off to NZ and married Vernon.
All the details that you wonderful people have found are the correct person/people. I know Stuart's background well and had taken at face value the family tale of being swept up by a New Zealand soldier as she grieved the death of her elderly husband and taken back to New Zealand to be his bride.
The reason that I posted on the Durham board originally was because I didn't know that Meddings was Australian until last Wednesday (again going along with the family story.....)
The reason that I don't have all three marriage certificates is because (a) I only found out about this anomaly on Sunday (b) I only found the marriage record to Milne on Monday and (c) she is not my direct ancestor being the wife of my 2x gt uncle's grandson.
It's a great story and I just wanted to get my facts straight. So many thanks for your help which is greatly appreciated especially the newspaper report of James'death.
DebNZ
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So may I assume that at the moment you don't actually have any of these three marriage certificates? and are basically joining dots based on what you can see listed at the online indexes? Perhaps your assumptions re those dots is correct, but perhaps you should consider validating by obtaining the actual records rather than just looking at the index entries.
Looking at Meddings war records you can see he was not exactly a model soldier and I don't find it odd that he was married during all the things that took place in 1916. I do find it odd that somehow Stuart married Claude Milne while she was still married to him though and THEN that she sailed off to NZ and married Vernon.
When did the MEDDINGS marriage take place? It was registered in the 3rd Quarter of 1916 (July, August, Sept). He was not in England until mid June 1916, and even then he was still serving out his Field Punishment No. 2 (56 days from 5 May or from 17 May takes that into July 1916). This hospital where he was sent for his Gun Shot Wound to his arm was NOT anywhere near Gateshead, Durham.
His AIF records show he was Marched out 28 October 1916 (4th Quarter) , and he notified the change of kin in November 1916. PERHAPS the marriage was 31 Oct 1916 (4th Quarter !) as the AIF records show the nok changes effective date as 31 Oct 1916. If so, how did he get from Weymouth to Gateshead and back to Woolwich, without furlough being logged on his AIF papers .....
Perhaps James MEDDINGS was only in England from mid June 1916 until end of Oct 1916.
It is my understanding that among the many difficulties facing anyone in England in the 1916 was the great reduction in the numbers of local horses, as so many were required at the Western Front.
So what method/s of transport got James Meddings to Gateshead and back ?
What was Stewart's occupation as per that 1916 marriage cert ?
James Meddings AIF digitised papers are 60 pages, so it is possible I have missed the furlough break that would point to opportunity for marriage, or perhaps it was not recorded.
BUT that aside, his signature is available at those papers, and his and Stewart's signatures would be on the marriage record too, so may I suggest you start there and compare the signatures to commence to confirm or otherwise that James Alexander MEDDINGS married your person of interest.
Cheers, JM
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Outgoing British Passenger Lists have a Stewart Morgan - female- Born 1893 age 17 travelling from London to Brisbane on the Oswestry Grange - departure 4.8.1910. Occupation domestic servant. Not enough to say if it is the same Stewart Morgan.
William
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And if that is her in 1910 going to Brisbane, Queensland Australia, then she needs to be back at Gatehead, Durham, England to marry in the 3rd Quarter of 1916.
Cheers, JM
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Just to add that the actual image shows that she was single and Scottish. Have you considered that she may have been a nurse or similar in WW 1?
William
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I would expect her occupation to be noted on the marriage certificates. :)
Cheers, JM
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Electoral Roll 1913 DARLING DOWNS, (an electorate in Queensland)
Stewart MORGAN, Montrose, Warwick, domestic servant F (F = female)
Cheers, JM
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An online researcher has sighted the NZ marriage cert.
Marriage to Vernon George Collins 1917 16 Oct Age: 22 Auckland, New Zealand. Stuart was described as a widow on her marriage certificate - her previous husband had died on 16 May 1917 aged 27
Vernon George COLLINS WW1 service
http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/Cenotaph/62504.detail?keywords=Collins%20Vernon%20George%20World%20War%20I,%201914-1918
Cando
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Hi All
Lots of things to answer. Firstly, I am the "online researcher" Cando.
I did see the passenger list with a Stuart Morgan on it - it was 2 years out with her birth date but it is still one I am considering.
According to Meddings' war record (yep, 60 pages!!!) he was returned to Australia in 1918.
I have certainly considered that Stuart may have been a nurse, possibly a VAD or maybe even a "good time girl" who liked soldiers...........
I truly truly truly realise that I need the marriage certificates to be sure of all these things. As I have pointed out, it is difficult to justify the money for a "non relative". I'm interested in investing time to get the story and just maybe money later down the track. But I'm only 6 days into this story and there may be things that emerge which will push me down the money track - we will see.
Many thanks
DebNZ
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So, Deb, as you have the NZ cert, ..... have you got to the ITM for that NZ marriage? It may well give you details about residency in NZ and other info too. The RChatters on the NZ board are usually very helpful re ITMs and how to access the info they hold. The NZ RChatters also regularly comment that there's more info on the NZ BDM printouts than on the NZ BDM certs.
So far, I cannot see the dots being joined without obtaining all three marriage certificates. To me, and I may be old fashioned, you will need to strive to obtain Stewart's signature and compare it on each certificate, and then if there's a fair match, then look for the three bridegrooms signatures to be matched up too. RChat has a fantastic board to help out there too.
Cheers, JM
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The surname MEDDINGS is not unknown in NZ.
You can view or download NZ service records for WWI service for that surname at Archway (and of course many other NZ archival documents mentioning MEDDINGS . http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
James Alexander MEDDINGS 60 page AIF file is not at all unusually long, some can go over 100 pages.
Cheers, JM
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Firstly, I am the "online researcher" Cando.
You are not alone :)
Cando
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It is my understanding that among the many difficulties facing anyone in England in the 1916 was the great reduction in the numbers of local horses, as so many were required at the Western Front.
So what method/s of transport got James Meddings to Gateshead and back ?
Umm, Train ?
Who would ride a horse from Weymouth to Durham, in 1916 ?
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Perhaps this woman ( it is a woman, right ? Are we sure of that ? ) had already met Meddings in Australia, and had kept in touch with him after her apparent return to England before 1916.
That would make the notion of this whirlwind marriage more plausible.
In the early 20th century, the railway system in the UK was the most advanced in the world. If he was supposed to travel by train from Weymouth to Woolwich, it would be entirely possible to detour to Gateshead and back, and turn up at Woolwich 12 hours late, and say he stopped at the pub on the way. Or that he could not get a horse-drawn taxi from the station, because of the shortage of horses. The files of hundreds of soldiers are full of such incidents. I think the problem of, how did he get to Gateshead, is am non-problem.
Actually, I'd be more concerned that a 27-year-old is considered an elderly husband.
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Googling James Meddings turns up this page
http://www.mytrees.com/newanc/Australia/Born-1883/Me/Meddings-family/James-Meddings-st000490-13.html
which appears to have details about his parents, siblings and grandparents and where they lived.
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I'm looking for any details about James A Meddings who married Stuart (sometimes spelt Stewart, Stewert) Easton Morgan in Gateshead in 1916. Other than this marriage entry, i can find no other information about James.
Deb
Birth:
James Alexander MEDDINGS b. 1883 WHAR #8815
Father: George
Mother: Margaret NICHOLSON
Merlin
WHAR = Wharparilla is a rural area between Echuca and Torrumbarry.
Australian Electoral Roll - with mistranscribed surname for James and incorrect spelling for Torrumbarry.
1909 Echuca/Echuca
MEDDINGS George Turrumberry Farmer
MEDDINGS Mary Turrumberry Home duties
MEDDLINGS James Alexander Turrumberry Labourer
To explain the above - James, his father George and step-mother Mary.
James enlisted in the army in Melbourne, Vic in 1915 and wasn't truthful about his age. Stated he was 28 years ie born c1887 when in fact he was born 1883.
Trawling my resources....
James mother, Margaret [NICHOLSON] died in 1890. George MEDDINGS and Mary WILLIAMS had a son at Turrumbarry in 1896 and married in 1900. George according to his 1900 marriage registration was born England.
George died at Echuca in 1933 and there is probate file at the Public Records Office of Victoria.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Deb you seem to have a good 'handle' on your research :). Pity a passenger record couldn't be found for Stewart between England and NZ.
Cando
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Oh well done Cando!
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Hi
I had some credits left for Scotlands People and downloaded the birth cert of Stuart Easton Morgan. She was born in 1893 not 1895 in the village of West Calder. The date was 3 April 1893 at 2.45pm, address East End, Main Street, West Calder. Her parents were James Morgan, a cooper and Elizabeth Steel Morgan (maiden surname Carmichael ). James and Elizabeth were married 1 May 1891 in West Calder. The informant was her mother Elizabeth.
West Calder lies to the west of Edinburgh. It is now in West Lothian but historically was in Midlothian (sometimes called Edinburghshire). It was an important centre of oil shale mining at the time of Stuart's birth.
The Morgans must have moved to Tyneside in the late 1890s looking at the birthplaces of their children, In the 1901 census Stuart is recorded as Stewart and a son age 7! Presumably an enumerator's error.
William
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Did Stuart Easton MORGAN have any children?
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Stewart CARMICHAEL, aged 77, mother in law to the head of the household (James MORGAN), was living with the family by 1911.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCK-FVF
I presume Stewart Easton MORGAN was named Stewart after her maternal Grandmother. :)
Here's Stewart's Gran, Stewart in 1891
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KS6T-8NB
And in 1871
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB5D-M5H
Cheers, JM
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This could be the birth of Elizabeth Carmichael
Eliza Carmichael 29 June 1867 West Calder Parents Robert Carmichael and Stewart Easton. It was common for children to be given their grandmother's maiden names in Scotland.
The birth of Stuart Easton's older brother John is also on family search 29 Aug 1891 (parents married 1 May!)
There is also a baptism for James Llewellyn Morgan in Edinburgh Parish 23 March 1866. Parents John Morgan and Lilias McPherson. Other children for this couple are on Family Search - Edinburgh Parish between 1862 and 1868 and Lilias, Robert and David in West Calder between 1870 and 1874.
William
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She was his nurse and they married. As far as I know the marriage was still valid when she re-married in NZ. He never married again. I didn't know she married twice after James. He certainly was a good looking man.
Meg.
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Thank you so much Meg. I have sent you a private message. I would love to hear from you.
DebNZ
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This is his death detail. It is the "back of Bourke" Teryawynie Station is on the Talyawalka Creek off the Darling. I had a quick look on Ancestry and his date of death is given as 29 Oct 1916. The marriage to Vernon is listed as 16.10.1917 Auckland NZ. He was my grandfather's brother.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46066921
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Yes, I have this.
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I just put it up for others. I was looking on Ancestry for Hannah's branch and saw the notice and the death date. Trove was re-done awhile back and that is why I added the link. Great Aunt told me about his death so the family knew about it. They gave him a proper burial etc. I have still to look for photos. Have mainly been working on the Westbrook family from Blackwall (London area) to see if I can find the mother while the 87, 84 and David (Andrew Charles) are still with us. They are all interested.