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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Devablue on Thursday 30 October 14 16:24 GMT (UK)
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I suspect this this is yet another line of the Peters family in Buckley and, therefore, not directly linked to earlier posts.
I am trying to track Edward Peters born approx 1857 and living in 1871 at Spon Green, Bistre with his parents - John Peters and Ann(e) Peters - formerly Hall. I am pretty sure that Edward had four sisters Esther, Elizabeth, Mary Ellen and Hannah, two brothers Arthur and Joseph and one sister, Esther, who died aged 8.
I am also sure that he is the father of my grandfather, John Edward Peters. John Edward Peters was born approx 1880 and died in 1930. The funeral report lists Edward's brothers and sisters as aunts and uncles attending the funeral. Also John Edward's marriage certificate in 1908 to Elizabeth Evans names Edward Peters, Miner, as his father.
However, I have failed to track Edward Peters other than in the 1871 census. Any help with this would be appreciated ie what happened to Edward. Also no sign, as far as I can see, of a marriage certificate for Edward or a birth certificate for John Edward.
Regards,
DevaBlue
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1881 Census at Lane End Johnsons Row, Hawarden (Flint), Chester, Cheshire, England
John Peters born 1832, Mold, Flintshire, Wales, coal miner
Ann Peters born 1834, Mold, Flintshire, Wales, wife
Edward Peters born 1857, Mold, Flintshire, Wales, coal miner
Elizabeth Peters born 1868
Joseph Peters born 1872
Mary E Peters born 1874
Hannah Peters born 1876
Esther Peters born 1879
All born Mold, Flintshire
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RG11 Piece 3565 Folio 88 Page 21 1881
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Coulsd this be Edward on 1891 Census in Mold, Holywell, Flintshire, Wales, age is out by a couple of years but he does have a son John :-\
Edward Peters born 1862, Buckley, Flintshire, coal miner
Elizabeth Peters born 1861 Merionethshire, Wales
Ann M Peters born 1883 Merionethshire, Wales
John Peters born 1887 Merionethshire, Wales
James Peters born 1888 Merionethshire, Wales
Emma Peters born 1891 Merionethshire, Wales
RG12
Pce no. 4609
Folio 133
Pg 10
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Thanks for the response and suggestions.
1881. There is no doubt about this. The ages and family names match exactly. So he was still in Buckley at or around the date that John Edward was born ie 1880 - based on John Edward's wedding certificate - 28years old in 1908, 1911 census - 31 years old and death certificate - 50 years old in 1930.
1891 census return is more difficult. The birth dates for both Edward and John are some way out and John is fairly consistent later in life that it was 1880. Also again far from conclusive but John Edward gives his place of birth in the 1911 census as Buckley. However, it would be worth my tracking the John Peters is this census to see where he ends up.
The key would be to make a definite link between Edward and John - ie a birth certificate - but Edward is clearly still a single man in 1881. Beyond this I would love to know what happened to them between 1881 and John Edward's wedding in 1908.
Thank you for your help. It is much appreciated.
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Hi,
Just some food for thought....
I was looking at the marriage cert for John Edwards and Ann "Hall" in 1858. Are you sure it is Hall and not Ibell (or Iball, etc)??
There is a baptism for an Edward Iball, mother Ann, single lady, of Bistre, in Jan 1857 ??? ???
John, Ann are in Buckley in 1901 - with son Arthur, daughter Esther Messham and her husband Alfred. RG13, Piece 3378, Folio 18, Page 27
I have this branch of the Peters family on my tree in a peripheral way. (Alfred Messham, Esther's husband, is a distant cousin)
RK
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RunKitty,
Thanks for your e-mail and apologies for the delay in replying.
You are right about Iball. I was thrown by the transcription in the 1841 census where the Iball (I think that it is Iball rather than Ibell?) family are living at Buckley Square but the transcription refers to them as Robert and Ann Hall. Easy enough I suppose with an unusual name, There are obviously close links in that an Edward Iball (aged 16) is living with John and Ann Peters as a boarder in 1861.
The baptism is a very interesting piece of information. Given that I have Edward Peters' birth date as 1857 (a year before the marriage in 1858) it could be that Edward was either John Peters' son but not named on the record of baptism or that John gave him the family name when he married Ann.
Yes, I had spotted the Messham connection. I think that my father (who was born in 1916) used to refer to a school pal called Messham. A longshot but I will see if I can find the name.
Thanks again for your help. I am quite encouraged by the possibility of finding Edward's baptism record. His life post 1881 is still a mystery - as is the birth/baptism of John Edward - but this is a good step forward.
Regards,
DevaBlue
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Hi,
The name Iball/Ibell/Eubal etc etc (lots of variations) isn't particularly unusual in the Buckley area. Neither is Messham/Mesham/Messam (again, lots of spelling variations to check). My Dad was born in Buckley too, so half of my family tree is from that area. :) :)
RK
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This is rather fanciful and a little convoluted,but might be worth considering(including my data,or more specifically lack of data when that is relevant!)
Edward Ibal(sic) is born to Ann as a single parent,as already given.
He is given as Peters while the census data is given by John Peters up to 1881
He reverts to his registered name as a married man by the 1891 and 1901 censuses
1891 RG12 4610 23 40
1901 RG13 5214 141 16
Although these entries have different partners Edward Iball is given as born 1857,Buckley
I cannot find this Edward Iball in 1871,1881,which is why I have proposed the theory.
I had hoped to extend the theory to suggest that it is his son John Edward Iball registered Sept Quarter 1879 who somehow chooses the reverse option and becomes John Edward Peters.
Not being able to positively identify this John Edward Iball in 1881doesn't help,and of course Edward Peters(aka Ibal) is still with main Peters family in 1881.Perhaps this is a step too far.
It is also possible of course that it is all a "red herring barking up the wrong tree"
Regards
Roger
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HA -- Genius!! Despair/Roger, looks like you have barked up the correct tree :)
Marriage of Edward Iball to Hannah Lamb, Dec 27 1890, bistre.... he lists his father as John Peters, collier!!
This fits with the 1891 census record you found. Edward and Hannah are with Hannah's father, Thomas Lamb. Looks like Edward and Hannah have a daughter, Sarah J Iball, 9mos, too.
RK
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Subsequent marriage in Bistre Emmanuel for Edward Iball, widower, collier, father John Peters, collier, to Elizabeth Crofts. Jan 7 1899. Elizabeth Crofts was a spinster when married... father William Crofts, blacksmith.
This fits with the 1901 census you found. Looks like they are living next to Elizabeth's father, William Crofts, retired blacksmith. 2 Crofts stepdaughters. Annie Iball 7 and Elizabeth Iball 2.
William Crofts has a 19 year old boarder with him... John Peters ??? ???
Just going to add all of this to my own tree :) :)
RK
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Free BMD has a death for Edward Iball, age 75, registered in Hawarden in DecQ 1932. ??? ??? Right age...
RK
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Looks like you have a few side branches/"step trees".I'll see if I can make anything further of the John Edward Iball,3rd quarter 1879.
Regards
Roger
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I can't find any confident data,census or BMD,following the birth registration for John Edward Iball,which leaves my original speculation open.Is there a parish register record for this birth in Holywell registration district 3rd Quarter 1879?
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for your help. My head is spinning....
Edwards Peters/Iball. This all looks very plausible and explains why I have failed to track Edward through the 1891 and 1901 census. I have a newspaper report of John Edward's funeral in 1930 and it states that his father - Edward Peters - attended. However, Edward is not at his grandson's funeral in 1936. So he could well have died in 1932 but again under the name Iball.
John Edward. As you say, his father in reverse. Looks as though he was brought up as Iball but certainly reverted to Peters from at least 1908 onwards. My father was vague about the Peters family line (he was much closer to his mother's family - Evans). However, he hinted that there children outside of the main family group.
John Edward injured his back in a mining accident around 1910 and was bed bound for the rest of his life. My father remembers a local man coming to sit with John Edward - possibly his father Edward. He was either being very diplomatic or genuinely did not know his grandfather on the Peters side. Interesting that he is always Edward Peters when there is a connection with John Edward (eg on the marriage certificate and at the funeral). My father also thought that John Edward spent some time abroad in America but this could well be a red herring. Close and it would be great to tie together Edward and John Edward through a birth or baptism record.
Regards and thanks again.
DevaBlue
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Hi,
Just some food for thought....
I was looking at the marriage cert for John Edwards and Ann "Hall" in 1858. Are you sure it is Hall and not Ibell (or Iball, etc)??
RK
Hi. I was rereading this thread and I see that in reply 5, I referred to the marriage of "John Edwards" and Ann Iball - that should, of course, be "John Peters". :P :P
I don't seem to be able to access the "modify" button for my earlier posts, so I am putting the correction here. I can see from the other responses in this thread, that Roger and Devablue have read my mistake as the correct name, but in case anyone else sees this thread later,and is confused, I want to fix my error.
I have looked for a baptism record that would correspond to the birth record for John Edward Iball, 1879. I don't see one. HMMM. Perhaps Devablue will have to order the birth certificate to see what it says?
Also, perhaps you can locate the obituary/death notice for Edward Iball (Peters??) in 1932. It might help to shed a bit more light on the matter?? I don't see it on FindMyPast or on the Welsh Newspapers online, but maybe it can be found in other record collections?
I still wonder about the 19 year old John Peters who is with William Croft in 1901 -- is this a possible sighting of your John Edward Peters?
RK
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I see a burial record, transcribed as "Edward Hall", in Dec 1932. The actual record says "Edward Iball". He was 75 and lived at 142 Mold Road, Bistre. Buried Dec 15, 1932 at Bistre. This must be the Edward Iball I found on the Free BMD - died DecQ of 1932. This burial date could narrow down your search for a death notice/obituary in the local papers
RK
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RunKitty
Funny how you read what you expect to see. I had not noticed the slip in the reference to John and Ann.
Yes I agree that it would be worth checking the birth certificate and I will order a copy.
I found the obituaries for John Edward and his two eldest sons (Edward and Dennis) in the Mold, Deeside and Buckley Leader. However, as far as I am aware, it is only available at the Flintshire Records Office, Hawarden. If so, I will have a look next time I am in N Wales - I live in S Wales.
Using the FindMyPast newspaper database I did find a fair few references to Edward Iball in the 1885-95 period including several drunk and disorderlies (on one occasion while in charge of a horse and cart) and a stabbing (he was found guilty and sentenced to 21 days in prison). While they all relate to Buckley it is difficult to say whether they are the same Edward Iball that we have been tracking. However, at least one fits -the Wrexham Advertiser for 2 July 1892. Mold Petty Sessions, Drunk and Disorderly. Edward Iball, collier, Spon Green. Fined 10s and costs.
Pure speculation but if this was a recurring theme then it may explain why John Edward preferred Peters. Also John Edward's, eldest son, Edward, was very active in one of the temperance movements in Buckley - the Rechabites.
Thanks again to you and Roger for your help.
DevaBlue
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Just had a look on NWales BMD for John Edward Iball 1879 and there are two very similar entries - Mold/35/47 and Mold/35/47a. Anyone know if they are different versions (eg long and short) of the same birth certificate?
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Hi,
I haven't used the North Wales BMD to order any certificates... just the Free BMD numbers and the GRO site... (costs just under 10 pounds I think)
The Free BMD only has one John Edward Iball reference in 1879.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Iball John Edward Holywell 11b 278
Here is the GRO site
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
This is the only way that I have ordered anything in the past. Perhaps other people could give you direction about using the NW BMD numbers to order a certificate.
RK
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The NorthWales BMD references are used for ordering from the local office.Clicking on the reference brings up a summary form,and clicking on the reference again provides an order form with details.
The office for Flintshire is at Llwynegrin Hall Mold Tel 01352 703333
I would ring them to ask about the "dual reference"
http://www.flintshire.gov.uk/en/Resident/Registration-Service/Certificates2.aspx
Regards
Roger
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Thanks both - again.
In the past I have written to the local offices but it is probably time to register with GRO and give it a go. It also appears to be cheaper. I have ordered the certificate today and will post the details when received.
Regards,
DevaBlue
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This is an update for those who have kindly helped in unravelling the life of Edward Peters of Buckley – my great grandfather.
Edwards Peters, funeral report for December 1932. Some progress here. It was suggested that Edward Peters died and was buried on 15th December 1932 at Bistre given that there is a Parish record of a burial of an Edward Hall (actually Iball) of 132, Mold Road aged 75. I have checked the Mold, Deeside and Buckley Leader for December 1932 and in the last week of December there is report of a funeral of an Edward Peters held at Bistre on Thursday (15th December). There are no details of his life other than he lived at Mold Road, was the eldest son of Mr and Mrs John Peters and was 75 years of age. This is almost certainly our man but yet again there is the conundrum of the parish register referring to Edward Iball and the newspaper report Edwards Peters. My impression is that when he had dealings with the family (eg his son’s wedding) he reverted to Peters but otherwise used his mother’s maiden name - Iball. Why, therefore, the Parish register should show a burial for an Edward Iball in December 1932 is difficult to understand.
John Edward Peters. We guessed that my grandfather might have been originally John Edward Iball given that my great grandfather often used his mother’s maiden name, Iball, on leaving the family home. On this basis I have had a look at the birth certificate for a John Edward Iball born on 6 July 1879. However, this looks like a dead end. He is the son of John and Margaret Iball of Daisy Hill, Buckley.
Difficult to know where to go next.
Edward Peters/Iball. The baptism record for Bistre in January 1857 looks right. In addition there is a birth certificate in 1857 for an “Edward Ibal” Holywell 11b 275 – possibly the Edward baptised at Bistre in January.
John Edward Peters. It may well be that, given that he was illegitimate, his birth was registered under his mother’s name. There are a few options in the Bistre parish records for 1879/80 eg a John born to Mary Anne Hughes in October 1880. Worth investigation.
DevaBlue
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Hi,
Very interesting Devablue. You are certainly making progress with this part of your tree.
Good news that you found the 1932 funeral notice in the paper... I agree that this certainly sounds like your Edward.
It looks like Edward Iball Peters uses his registered/legal name of Iball for official/church purposes. He was baptized, married and buried under this last name. The newspaper report of his burial used the name most people would know him by. I guess the important thing was to let the local people know who had died and where/when he was buried ... the "official" legal name wouldn't be necessary. So, Peters was used instead of Iball.
For your records -- the baptism date for Edward Iball, son of Anne Iball, was Jan 24, 1857 (in my previous post, I just gave the month, not the actual date). This could very well fit with the birth registration you found for January 1957.
The John Edward Iball record for 1879 looked really promising. Too bad it is for another man. You are right, he could have been registered and baptized under his mother's maiden name. I also wonder if you need to widen your search to Cheshire and possibly Lancashire. Sometimes, unwed mothers went away to have their children. I have run across this... where someone was actually born in a neighbouring county, but listed Buckley as place of birth on census records, etc.
I still wonder if the John Peters living with William Crofts (next door to Edward Peters and Elizabeth Crofts) in 1901 is your John. He was said to be 19 then, so born about 1881 or 1882??
RK