RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: Sharpshooter on Friday 31 October 14 08:08 GMT (UK)
-
Hi all,
I'm currently tracing my ancestry back to my great-great-grandparents in Aughnacloy. As you can see here in the 1901 census Patrick & Sarah Slavin have a child who not only has a different surname, but a different religion. The whole entire family is RC (Joseph Slavin, the eldest son, is my great granddad) but Jane Campbell, who is only 15 and single, is reportedly Church of Ireland.
1901 - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Aughancloy_Urban_Aughancloy_Town_in_17_files/Mill_Street/1724189/
1901 transcript - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001182229/
1911 - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Aughnacloy_Urban/Mill_Street/854156/
1911 transcript - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003412197/
Both Patrick and Sarah are 40 and 36 respectively in 1901, but dramatically have aged 56 and 57 respectively in just 10 years in the 1911 census (pensions act came into effect in 1908, possibly causing them to lie). in 1911 they've stated also they've been married for 24 years. However I have found only one document matching a Patrick Slavin and Sarah across a 30 year span, that was in 1897 in Aghaloo (the RC parish next to Aughnacloy) meaning they were married 14 years by 1911, not 24 (again they've lied to tie the whole thing in I assume).
I have a printscreen of the marriage certificate from rootsireland.ie:
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2mec1o6.jpg (if you open it up the first time there are adds, close it and open it up again there are none and its clearer)
What is interesting from that is Sarah's maiden name is also Campbell, the same surname as Jane. So we can assume that's her daughter from a previous relationship. Now I did some research on this and found a birth certificate for a Jane Campbell in Clogher in 1886 (matching her age), with mother Sarah Campbell and an unknown/not stated father. The child was therefore illegitimate.
http://oi60.tinypic.com/dxh6xd.jpg
But what I am most confused about and I would like to resolve if possible is that Jane Campbell is protestant and her mother in both 1901 and 1911 is stated as catholic. I have absolutely no idea why this is? I'm curious to know about what my great-great-grandmother's religion is and is it possible this was a mixed marriage? I'm stuck on this and would appreciate some help!
-
Perhaps when Sarah had the illegitimate daughter she could not bring it up herself, and so farmed it out to someone who brought it up Church of Ireland? (Perhaps Sarah herself was originally Church of Ireland, and converted when she married? There was often pressure to do so).
-
..."Both Patrick and Sarah are 40 and 36 respectively in 1901, but dramatically have aged 56 and 57 respectively in just 10 years in the 1911 census (pensions act came into effect in 1908, possibly causing them to lie)..."
So what's on their Pension Application?
-
I would agree with Elwyn that Sarah campbell was probably church of Ireland and when she married Patrick converted to catholicism, which would have been common practice at the time, as marriage took place in catholic church. Her daughter then 15 would not have been under the same pressure to convert so would have remained CoI.
Unfortunately I cannot find civil record of Sarah's marriage which would have given her fathers name, as you can see from catholic marriage record parents were not included so hard to find birth record for Sarah, there are several possibilities but without fathers name they would be speculation.
Update: Sorry my mistake re. Sarah's daughter, must learn to read posts fully before reply :-[
-
Her daughter Jane would only have been 1 or 2 when mother married as next daughter Sarah is only 3 years younger than Jane.
-
Her daughter Jane would only have been 1 or 2 when mother married as next daughter Sarah is only 3 years younger than Jane.
Yes, I had that in mind when I suggested that Jane might have been farmed out for some years, till she grew up, otherwise you’d expect her to be the same denomination as her siblings.
-
it does say on the census that pages are missing, also if you were not in the house when the census people came your name was not put on the census. A lot of RC would not conform to the English rule that's why a lot of names and ages are wrong.
It says that Jane Campbell is a General Servant domestic
-
Her daughter Jane would only have been 1 or 2 when mother married as next daughter Sarah is only 3 years younger than Jane.
Yes, I had that in mind when I suggested that Jane might have been farmed out for some years, till she grew up, otherwise you’d expect her to be the same denomination as her siblings.
Certainly possible, but if they only married in 1897 and they have kids 15, 12, 10, 7 etc in 1901 Census, after 4 years of marriage then they had those kids before they married too.
BUT... as these Roots records are notoriously inaccurate, put together but unemployed people as part of an unemployment scheme it is VERY possible that the date of 1897 could be entered incorrectly, and actually be 1887!!
If one reads this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=670189.0 then one can decide on their reliability and make up their own mind.
-
it does say on the census that pages are missing, also if you were not in the house when the census people came your name was not put on the census. A lot of RC would not conform to the English rule that's why a lot of names and ages are wrong.
It says that Jane Campbell is a General Servant domestic
Yes I can read and observe there are Pages missing, and as it says Form A is missing, which wouldn't have given and other data on the family. These were removed to make room for the new Census data added recently on the site.
-
Living nearby in 1901, there's a Lucenda Campbell aged 18, also CoI (a servant in a house):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Aughancloy_Urban_Aughancloy_Town_in_17_files/Moore_Street/1724246/
Might be worth checking if she's a daughter to Sarah/sister to Jane.
Some information on the Clogher workhouse (where the Jane Campbell you found was born), including where records are held, is here:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Clogher/
-
Thanks for all the responses so far guys, much appreciated. The rootsireland thread you've put up there Hallmark doesn't appear to be coming up for me, but I'll read into more about the site if I can as up until now I was taking the records on that site as gospel! So indeed if mistakes do occur regularly on those sites, I would need to know that.
Just going from that site for now though I can find 18 Sarah Campbell's born between 1860 and 1870 (she was 36 on the 1901 census so assuming she was born in 1864/65), the vast majority of them are catholic and there is indeed a Sarah Campbell born in Aghaloo (Roman Catholic) in 1868 (which I have attached). Its states here she was born on Mill Street, the street they are living on in the census.
All of the other Sarah Campbell's are in Cookstown/Coalisland/Castlederg, so this might be her. Although she's 3/4 years younger than stated on the census (she knows her own kids ages pretty well as their ages fit their birth certificates exactly, but not her own?) and most importantly according the RootsIreland website, she's catholic. However Sarah Campbell is a pretty common name and she might not be the only Sarah Campbell to be born in Aghaloo within those years.
Nevertheless I'm getting conflicting information here and its what I hate. I live in Omagh currently, do you I think I should visit the church to see if I can obtain any records and to check if Roots Ireland have made mistakes on this?
Regarding Lucenda Campbell I have found a birth certificate for her in 1880 in Ballymagran (parish next to Carnteel/Aghaloo) but her mother's called Eliza Thomson, so no direct relation.
-
It is Topic: RootsIreland mistranscriptions and errors on the "Ireland-General" Board Page 4 at present
-
Yeah I read the thread Hallmark, certainly is quite revealing, I think I'll be heading off to PRONI to verify anything I find on there in future.
So what do you guys think of the Sarah Campbell baptism record I found there, do you think its likely to be her, born also on Mill Street only a few years after? Of course it conflicts with her daughters religion which is frustrating so i'm going to have to go to PRONI to check but if it does confirm she's catholic, then that's going to leave me stumped on the issue. I'll also check the Clogher workhouse records to see if any information is given about Jane Campbell.
-
Well first of all you'll either need to accept the marriage record you posted as either being correct or not...then that makes some of her kids illegitimate too BUT have you searched familysearch for her kids??
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01e3s/ for example shows 2 recorded at Clogher but you have to leave the search loose..just Surname, Ireland and Year Range as they are not searchable by County. Then look through results!
If you are in Omagh, you can go to nearest Reg Office in Republic and get those Cert photocopies there and then €4 each... if you talk to staff just say you're not sure of which one you want but that "it is the child of..." you need! Often they will look and advise you which is the one, so you don't need to get them unless parents are correct!!
-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01e3t/ is just a "loose" search...
-
IF you take the likes https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYWL-8PX as being a possible then as far as I know, it shows the date of Reg, not date of Marriage, but don't quote me!
Note: I haven't gone through the FS search results!