RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: dathai on Monday 03 November 14 09:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
having noticed over the years but taken for granted some of the Latin terms written on Baptism's and Marriage's on Irish Genealogy i came across this excellent site this morning which explain's some of them.
See Our Wicklow Heritage,County Wicklow Parish Records.
explain's Degrees and relationship's etc ie first cousins and second cousins and if people were previously related by marriage.
All little clues in helping us understand our ancestors.
Dathai
Link
http://www.countywicklowheritage.org/page_id__23_path__0p4p10p.aspx
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Thanks for posting Dathai !
Tara
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I wonder whether either of you could help me decipher a birth entry in the Rathkeale, Co. Limerick register for my wife's gt grandfather. I think I will probably need to send you the image as my problem is both with the handwriting and the Latin. The entry is at the bottom of the left page for 21 February 1874 in the Rathkeale registers. Here's my attempt:
"Johan (John) baptizavi Joannen (James) ? Iaesto Frawley, do Chapel Lane & Anna Dineen di XX nature; Sponsors: Joanne (John) O'Neill & Alicia Finn."
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks and best wishes
John
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Link to register
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635009#page/84/mode/1up
His birth cert in case it helps
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03155/2157448.pdf
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Many thanks, Sinann. You have the correct parish register entry but a) do the names correspond to the civil registration names? and b) what is the complete translation? "Iaesto"? "di XX nature"? What does this mean, please?
Any help with the translation appreciated.
Many thanks
Best
John
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I looked up the birth cert to see if they were married, I thought the XXnature might indicate that they weren't, the birth cert looks like they were but I don't see the marriage. Do you know if they were married?
Just noticed it written on the one above as well and the one after top of next page all with the same date.
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The wording starts with the priests name
? baptised John of James Frawley etc.
the die XX could be a date, die seem to mean day and XX could be 20, the one above it says XXI which could be 21.
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I think it means that the child was born on the 20th.
It is not 'nature' but 'natum' which means born.
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I couldn't see where you had 'laesto' but now realise you mean Jacobi - of James. (Jacobus - James).
Although it looks as though it could be written 'Jacobo' ???
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The wording starts with the priests name
The first word after the date is Idem, meaning ‘the same’, i.e. James O’Shea, the same cleric named in the previous entry.
21st Idem baptizavi Joannem ex Jacobo Frawley de
Chapel Lane & Anna Duncan(?) die XX. natum; spons(oribus)
Joanne O’Neill & Alicia Finn
21st I, the same, baptized John, of James Frawley of Chapel Lane and Ann Duncan(?), born on the 20th day; sponsored by John O’Neill and Alice Finn
ADDED - I believe the parish register looks more like Duncan than Dineen, despite what is recorded on the birth certificate.
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This would appear to be the marriage, in 1869 at Rathkeale. Ancestry's transcription of the civil registration index has Anne's surname as Drenneen, which looks even less likely.
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635009#page/109/mode/1up
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I looked up the birth cert to see if they were married, I thought the XXnature might indicate that they weren't, the birth cert looks like they were but I don't see the marriage. Do you know if they were married?
Just noticed it written on the one above as well and the one after top of next page all with the same date.
Yes, the birth cert indicates they were married - in fact, at Rathkeale 6 August 1869. I have found Anne's maiden name variously written as Dineen, Denen, Deneen and so forth, so that's not a surprise.
The more I look at this I'm thinking this is a two-for-one baptism for sons John and James. So:
"???? baptizavi Iohannes or Joannes (John) e Jacabo (James) Frawley, do Chapel Lane & Anna Dineen di XX natem; Sponsors: Iohannes or Joannes (John) O'Neill & Alicia Finn."
So, although the syntax in a literal translation does not work, what about: "??? baptised John and James Frawley of Chapel Lane of Anna Dineen born the 20th (February). Sponsors: Joanne (John) O'Neill & Alicia Finn."
But what do you think the first word is?
If James was baptised at the same time as John, it would be several years after he was a born (in 1871) - and, I think there is a sister Mary who was baptised 6 August 1871. So, why was James not baptised in 1871? He may have died in 1871 - but would a priest have baptised a deceased child? However, may be one James died in 1871 and James and Anne had another James, who may have been the twin of John, both born 20 Feb 1871, and baptised the day after.
I would appreciate your thoughts.
Many thanks
Best
John
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Have you read all the replies, only one child is baptised.
The wording starts with the priests name
The first word after the date is Idem, meaning ‘the same’, i.e. James O’Shea, the same cleric named in the previous entry.
21st Idem baptizavi Joannem ex Jacobo Frawley de
Chapel Lane & Anna Duncan(?) die XX. natum; spons(oribus)
Joanne O’Neill & Alicia Finn
21st I, the same, baptized John, of James Frawley of Chapel Lane and Ann Duncan(?), born on the 20th day; sponsored by John O’Neill and Alice Finn
ADDED - I believe the parish register looks more like Duncan than Dineen, despite what is recorded on the birth certificate.
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Brilliant, Sinann. We will have to disagree on Duncan/Dineen. I cannot magnify the image enough but I thinking I'm seeing two "e"s before an "n" at the end of the name. I also think there is a flying dot on the "i", which is difficult to see. (Just returned from Rathkeale. I should have popped into the church!) The Chapel Lane abode also ties with James and Anne's 1869 marriage entry.
Many thanks.
Still, the mystery about James' birth date remains. Any thoughts on my competing theories?
Best
John
The wording starts with the priests name
The first word after the date is Idem, meaning ‘the same’, i.e. James O’Shea, the same cleric named in the previous entry.
21st Idem baptizavi Joannem ex Jacobo Frawley de
Chapel Lane & Anna Duncan(?) die XX. natum; spons(oribus)
Joanne O’Neill & Alicia Finn
21st I, the same, baptized John, of James Frawley of Chapel Lane and Ann Duncan(?), born on the 20th day; sponsored by John O’Neill and Alice Finn
ADDED - I believe the parish register looks more like Duncan than Dineen, despite what is recorded on the birth certificate.
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Still, the mystery about James' birth date remains. Any thoughts on my competing theories?
I'm afraid you have misread the Latin. It is not et Jacobo ('and James') but ex Jacobo (literally, 'out of James').
As Sinann has said, only one child is baptised. His name is John. The father is called James.
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Oops. Yes, of course, Many thanks for pointing this out.
Best
John
Still, the mystery about James' birth date remains. Any thoughts on my competing theories?
I'm afraid you have misread the Latin. It is not et Jacobo ('and James') but ex Jacobo (literally, 'out of James').
As Sinann has said, only one child is baptised. His name is John. The father is called James.
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The first word in the entry is "Idem", Latin for the same, i.e. same date, same priest as in previous entry. The priest is named in the previous entry (first line). Oops, see Boombox already got there...!