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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: mossimo on Tuesday 04 November 14 06:26 GMT (UK)
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hi
Any info please,Shes the mother of my grandmum
Have her birth cert-born St Just Cornwall on 24 may 1855
mother jane Legge born approx 1817, father Charles james George, Seaman ,born approx 1833
married Henry King, have his birth cert, he was born 1 july 1855,Tiverton, Devon
Regards
Peter
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This appears to be Augusta on 1861
Margaret George 66 - widow, farmer, b Mylor
William George 25 - son, unmarried, mariner, b st Just
Caroline H Bowman 22 - daughter, married b St Just
Elizabeth C Bowman 1/12 - grand-daughter, b St Mawes
Henry Merritt George 20, son, unmarried, farmer b St Just
Augusta George 6 - grand daughter b St Mawes
RG 9, 1553, 37, 1
1871 in Trewithian with uncle and aunt William and M M Chapman and their children
Going backwards Margaret George is at the Chapmans in 1851, and in St Just with husband George George [yes, really] and 10 children aged from 20 to 6 months, including a Charles aged 8, so it all fits
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Found marriage for Augusta's parents
Jane Legge married Charles James George in Lambeth district in 3rd quarter 1851.
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Ancestry has the parish record for the marriage
It took place at St John the Evangelist, Lambeth on 20 Sept 1851. Charles father was George George as we know, Jane's father was Michael Legge. Charles was a Police Officer, his father was a Relieving Officer. Michael Legge was a solicitor. Both bride and groom could sign their names. Both of full age - over 21.
Witnesses were Mary Magrath (made mark) and what loks like S Cleaver (signed)
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Added: both gave address as William Street. There is one in Lambeth so assume that was the William street they meant.
If Charles's year of birth is correct at 1833 or maybe 1832, he wasn't quite of full age in 1851!. Can't find either Jane or Charles in 1851 census which would be a few months before they married.
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Found baptism of Charles James George to George George and Margaret on 21 Oct 1833 at St Just in Roseland. (Familysearch)
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1851 - Westminster St John the Evangelist, 2 Moreton St [?]
Stephen Ferrel 35 - police constable b Gerrard [?] Cornwall
Phillippa Ferrel 31
John Ferrel 2
Stephen Ferrel 1
Mary H Crigoe 13
Charles J George 17 - lodger, candidate for the police, b St Just, Cornwall
William H Webb 25
James Maple 48
Ref HO107, 1479, 790, 38
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There's a Jane Legge aged 20 in Stoke Newington in 1851, a nursemaid with the Thane family. She's listed as b Grane, Ireland. Ancestry also has, in its Irish Tithe Applotment Books, a Michael Legge of Garanne, Kilbarron, Tipperary in 1824 and Ballingarry, Ballinahinch, Tipperary in 1833
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1861 has a Jane George, widow, b Ireland c1833 as a nurse in Hampstead
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found 1861/71 census
Can't find 1881 census
1891 census-Clapham/London has Caroline george -visiter aged 36 dressmaker with henry King unmarried,assistant baker aged 35.with children Florence 6,Charles 4, and Laura 3mths.
Have another 1891 census for Tiverton devon -Caroline King aged 52 ,sister to Martha Oxenham aged 60,says born Tiverton so this one probably a different Caroline.
1901 census-Wandsworth/London-now married- has Henry aged 40,Baker--Caroline aged 40 with children Florence 17,charles 14,Laura 12,mable 6,Rosie 4.
1911-census-unknown place -Henry aged 53 pastry cook, Caroline aged 53 with Mabel 16 and Rosey aged 13
So bit of hankipanki going on -illegitemate children maybe unless from previous relationship and lying about ages
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1891 census-Clapham/London has Caroline george -visiter aged 36 dressmaker with henry King unmarried,assistant baker aged 35.with children Florence 6,Charles 4, and Laura 3mths.
Looking at 1891 census image Laura looks more like Lena K, and there's a birth reg for Lena King George in Wandsworth district Q1 1891, so that matches, so the youngest at least seems to be acknowledged as Henry's child.
Also as to Henry's status, it looks like the enumerator is consistently putting "S" for single / unmarried, so what could be a "U" or an "M" is actually an "M" indicating he is married. So we should be looking for a death of a Mrs King between 1891 and whenever Augusta / Caroline married Henry.
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Yes sorry ,my mistake
Lena George king birth certificate born Wandsworth 29 dec 1890, mother Caroline George-father missing so they were not married.
As his wife isn't there perhaps she's in an institution or they may be separated,being that he's now had a child with his 'visitor' while wife is alive.
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Despite what 1911 says, they marry in Q2 1909 (Lambeth Vol 1d, p748)
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Just sourced from family two birth certifficates
Florence Bertha Cottle born 15 april 1884 Hammersmith -father Charles Cottle born approx 1858 Somerset and mother Caroline Cottle formerly George--
also
Charles Merrit George born 29 dec 1886 Wandsworth-father Charles Cottle, mother Augusta Caroline minnie Cottle formerly George
So Augusta was married before,would love to get 1881 census and marriage certs of both Charles Cottle and Henry King
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Florence Bertha's baptism on 14 Nov 1884 was at Hammersmith St Peters. Address St Peter's Lodge, St Peters Square. Father's occupation "travelling restaurant" ??
Charles Merrit George's baptism - parish of St Mary Balham, 20 Feb 1887, address 5 Sherwood terrace, Larch Rd. Father an accountant
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I have accountant on both birth cetificates
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found augusta's mother Jane George( nee Legge) in 1861 census Redruth-churchtown (rd ,st or area)
Jane George 43 husband abroad
James george 18 black smith
Elizabeth Ann george 15 scholar
Mary Jane George 12 scholar
Samual Henry George 9 Scholar
Charles George 6
all born Redruth Cornwall
Augusta was with her grandmother Margaret George in st Just
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I wonder if this is Charles on 1881 - 9 North Audley St, parish of St Georges Hanover Square
Henry Watson 30
Harriet Watson 23
Elizabeth Smith 26
Charles Cottle 55 - lodger, accountant b Radstock somerset. Married
RG11, 92, 61, 2
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I have Charles Cottle born approx 1858 Radstock Somerset, it is entirely possible it is his father born approx 1826 in the 1881(age 55) census being they have same name and birthplace ??
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Where have you found the Charles Cottle 1858 was born in Radstock? On 1861 census the only Charles Cottles born Radstock are the one born 1828 already mentioned and three others:
b 1789 residing Wellow Somerset
b 1808 residing Radstock, Somerset
b1835 residing Wellow
The 1828 Charles was a boarder in Abingdon occ grocer's warehouseman. The person he is boarding with is a grocer. Charles is listed as married
If you track him back to 1851, he's with his family in Somerset, his father is a grocer and he's unmarried. So somewhere between the two censuses he got married but no sign of wife as yet.
I can't find a marriage between Charles Cottle and Augusta / Caroline around the time the first two children were born.
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Charles Cottle (1826) is the son of John and Judith. In 1861, in Farrington Gurney Somerset (same place the family was in 1851), there is a Bithia Cottle - married (occ postmistress) with two children. John and Judith are her lodgers and John is described as her father in law. There is a marriage in Q1 1852 Chipping Sodbury district for a Charles Cottle and one of the two possible brides is Bithia Parker. So looks like missing wife is found.
Charles is back living with Bithia in Bristol in 1871, the only children are the same two daughters that were with Bithia in 1861 (Georgiana 18 and Eliza 14). Charles is a Commercial traveller. So it looks like he and his wife were apart for long periods.
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I have Charles Cottle 1858-oct nov dec-Bath-somerset vol 5c pg 671,
I also have Charles Cottle 1856-oct nov dec-somerset vol 5c pg 563
perhaps I should have said approx 1857,doesn't matter, age is about right, and going by what i have been told by now deceased relatives.Still not definite of course but this part of the family is difficult especially jane legge and her father Michael
I haven't found a marriage cert for charles and Augusta
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When Charles Merrit Cottle was baptised on 20 feb 1887 they(Charles and Augusta) were married and lived at 5 She***(unreadable) Terrace, Lands rd,St Mary, Balham,Surrey(Charles Merrit Cootle born in Wandsworth,Streatham,Surrey.
Apparently he lived in Genow illinois USA(again, source deceased)
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I have Charles Cottle 1858-oct nov dec-Bath-somerset vol 5c pg 671,
I also have Charles Cottle 1856-oct nov dec-somerset vol 5c pg 563
If Charles Cottle (b approx 1857) was born in Radstock, his birth would be registered in Clutton district.
The Charles born Q4 1856 was registered in Shepton Mallet district. The Charles born Q4 1858 in Bath appears on 1861 and 1871 censuses as son of John and Jane Cottle living in Bath.
Just sourced from family two birth certifficates
Florence Bertha Cottle born 15 april 1884 Hammersmith -father Charles Cottle born approx 1858 Somerset and mother Caroline Cottle formerly George--
This doesn't say the father was born in Radstock, only in Somerset. I've never seen a birth certificate that gives the year and place of birth of father of the baby. All the ones I have for my ancestors only give name, occupation and residence of father and name and maiden name of mother.
ADDED: Have found a copy of the birth certificate posted on line. Nowhere does it say where or when the father was born. It only gives his name and occupation. The addresses given are those where the birth took place and the address of the informant who was not either parent. She was Elizabeth Polding of Hogarth Place Chiswick (present at birth). She registered the birth on 27 May 1884, the birth having taken place about 6 weeks earlier. A little unusual I would think.
When Charles Merrit Cottle was baptised on 20 feb 1887 they(Charles and Augusta) were married and lived at 5 She***(unreadable) Terrace, Lands rd,St Mary, Balham,Surrey
What evidence have you that they were actually married, when no registration of their marriage has yet been found? An earlier post mentioned this baptism with the unreadable address as Sherwood Terrace.
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Florence Bertha's baptism on 14 Nov 1884 was at Hammersmith St Peters. Address St Peter's Lodge, St Peters Square. Father's occupation "travelling restaurant" ??
Just found this baptism on Ancestry. Although a travelling restaurant sounds possible - I have a (possible) relative who was a baker and confectioner and travelled around fairs and similar places setting up a stall to sell his wares - the predecessor of the sandwich van. But looking closely the "R" looks like A and c run together, so I think it is also accountant.
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Have found Elizabeth Polding in 1881 and 1891, she is living at 2 Hogarth Terrace / Place, Chiswick. In 1881 she is wife of a bricklayer with no occupation listed and in 1891 she has been widowed and her occupation is charwoman. She is about 4 years older than Augusta / Caroline. Unless she did some unofficial midwifery, I would suspect she is just a friend of Caroline's. As registration is exacly 42 days after birth date, I would be suspicious about the birth date recorded, I wouldn't be surprised if the real birthdate was a bit earlier.
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Again-Sorry if I h've gotten ahead of myself re Charles Cottle's birth and birthplace-have absolutely no evidence of either except for family stories.Only hint that Charles and Augusta were in fact married is on the son Charles Merrit Cottle and Florence Cottles birth certificates where it is stated that mother is Augusta Caroline minnie Cottle nee George.So it appears that maybe they were married but not proven as yet either way.
Just to confuse us -Lena George moss nee King born 29 dec 1890 in Claphan London ( Augusta's daughter) when she died on 12 aug 1973 in Auckland New Zealand listed her mother as Caroline Augusta Minnie King nee Cochran. This has to be an error,she was my grandmother and all our photos and records says maiden name is George
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Only hint that Charles and Augusta were in fact married is on the son Charles Merrit Cottle and Florence Cottles birth certificates where it is stated that mother is Augusta Caroline minnie Cottle nee George.So it appears that maybe they were married but not proven as yet either way.
Just to confuse us -Lena George moss nee King born 29 dec 1890 in Claphan London ( Augusta's daughter) when she died on 12 aug 1973 in Auckland New Zealand listed her mother as Caroline Augusta Minnie King nee Cochran. This has to be an error,she was my grandmother and all our photos and records says maiden name is George
Experience shows that many people claim to be married when not on official documents, for the sake of appearances.
I wonder if Cochran is a misremembering of the Cottle name that appeared in the family history at one point
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Only hint that Charles and Augusta were in fact married is on the son Charles Merrit Cottle and Florence Cottles birth certificates where it is stated that mother is Augusta Caroline minnie Cottle nee George.
The birth certificate only says what the informant has told the registrar. In the case of Florence the informant was not one of the parents. Neither the informant or her husband were born anywhere near St Mawes, Cornwall or Tiverton, so I do not think they were relatives. The informant would either believe what she was told about the parents and their status and about the child's birthdate or collude with the misinformation. A birth must be registered within 42 days of the event. It is normally registered by one or both of the parents. If they are unable to do so (usually only medical reasons or absent father would prevent this), then there are certain other people permitted to register the birth, one being someone present at the birth. This birth was apparently registered on the last day allowable by someone who was not the parent, but claimed to be present at the birth. I would be very very suspicious of anything it said.
As for death cert, Lena wouldn't have said what her mother's maiden name was, she had died. It would be next of kin, someone present at death etc. I wouldn't expect an informant on a death cert to deliberately give false information (unlike birth and marriage cert), but they might easily give incorrect information due to ignorance of the truth.
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thank u for the heads up-just a newbe, but love the mystery,the detective work so to speak.Starting to realise from the other posts that you have to read all of the certificate, a lot of info is there if you can see it.Will get better with advise from veterans such as yourself.
Thank you
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Caroline Maria August King was my paternal great grandmother, born on May 24, 1855. She died on August 12, 1935 and is buried in London, England at Islington Cemetery, East Finchley, Church Ground, Grave No. 22617, Section M, according to a death card I have a Xeroxed copy of. My paternal grandfather was originally named Charles George Merritt Cottle. He had a sister named Florence who I believe married a man with the last name of Moss. I believe he also had a sister named Edna and another sister named Lena. His birth father was Charles Cottle, born around 1826, I think. I was told that Charles Cottle died and when Charles G. M. King was about 7 or 9 years old, his mother Caroline married her second husband and his name was Henry King. Henry adopted Charles G. M. Cottle and his name was changed to Charles George Merritt King. Charles King married Ruth Warnock in Chicago, IL in 1916 or 1917. Charles died in Geneva, Illinois, USA on June 6, 1958. They had two sons, Merritt Austin King (born 12/2/1918) and Wesley Robert King. Merritt King was my father. He died at age 93 in Geneva, Illinois on 1/25/2012. His brother Wesley King died in Tucson, Arizona, USA on 6/21/2014 at age 93.
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Hi Arkvision
Thank you so much for that info.My Paternal grandmother was Lena George Moss (nee King) 1890-1973, the daughter of Henry King and Augusta.
I have a birth certificate for Augusta and Charles G M Cottle, also Henry King.I also have the marriage certificate for Augusta's Mother and father-Jane Legge and Charles james George.
I would like a copy any certificates you may have on this line,and of course can provide what i have.
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Hi Arkvision
certs attached
click on image and rt click choose save as
Documents removed to prevent breaches of copyright
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Bethia Parker/Cottle was calling herself a widow in 1881 despite the fact that her husband Charles appears to have been living as a lodger in London and indicating he was married. She was still alive in 1901.
Isobel
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Hi Isobelw
Was Bethia Parker the wife of Charles Cottle,father to Charles G. M. Cottle??.Wasn't clear in post.
Peter
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My answer followed on from posts 17 and 20 and yes all the evidence points to Charles Cottle, accountant, born 1826, being the husband of Bethia nee Parker.
I also had a look for the wife of Henry King who is shown as married in the 1891 census entry in which he appears with Caroline George. In 1881 there is a Henry King, Baker, age 24 born Tiverton Devon with wife Kate age 33 born Eastfield Peterborough,Northants living in Battersea.In 1891 Kate ( now declaring her correct age of 47) is on her own with three children in Lambeth but says she is married. Her place of birth is Eastfield, Northants. The children are Kate E age 10 born Battersea, Henry F age 9 born Balham and John age 4 born Lambeth. Ancestry has the baptisms of two of the children on 29 August 1883 - Henry Freear King and Kate Elizabeth King. Father Henry was a Baker and they were living at 73 Zennon Road. By 1901 Kate age 57 was living in Lambeth with the children and claiming to be a widow. They all disappear after that. I believe Kate is the Kate Frear born in Peterborough in 1843 ( from Henry's middle name). Her Dec 1843 baptism on Ancestry says she was the daughter of Henry Freear,farmer, Eastfield and Elizabeth. Can't find any marriage for her.
Isobel
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Thank you
Could you post the 1881 cencus ?
Henry's marriage to augusta was in 1909 in lambeth vol 1d 748
Henry's father was John King born 1812 in Tiverton Devonshire,died 1894 in Kingsbridge Dev (cert 5b 198).he married Augusta Sophia Chick in Axminster Dev 1839,she was born 1817 in Axminster and died 1881 in Tiverton