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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Ruskie on Tuesday 04 November 14 12:17 GMT (UK)
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I would appreciate some help tracking down Samuel Hendrie born about 1838 (place unknown).
His occupation is Blacksmith/Hammerman on his d/c and son's marriage certificate.
Samuel died in 1898 in Coatbridge, Lanarkshire.
I know Scottish census transcriptions leave a lot to be desired but I am hoping to locate Samuel in at least a couple of censuses, hopefully with parents and siblings. From his d/c his father is Samuel Hendrie, farmer, and his mother is Peggy (presumably short for Margaret) McCook (I believe but writing is a bit unclear).
I have not been able to find his birth either, so any help finding that would be an added bonus.
Thank you for any help.
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Hi Ruskie ,
Do you have his wife and children's names ?
It may help find his birthplace on the Census.
ev
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Hi ev,
Thanks for the reply.
Samuel married twice:
First wife is Mary Campbell. Mary died in 1869. The line I am tracing is from their son John Hendrie b 1855.
Second wife is Elizabeth Rilson (I think this surname is correct). I don't have a date for their marriage (as this is not the line I am tracing).
I'm afraid I don't have any other children for Samuel with either wife. :-\
Samuel had a sister in Gartsherrie in 1898, mentioned in newspaper article related to his death, but I don't know her name.
Sorry not much help I'm afraid ....
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Possible children -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQBZ-JWR
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQH2-2Y8
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQPY-MR6
ev
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Where was John born in 1855?
There is a Samuel Henry, blacksmith, b abt 1822-3 Ireland in Coatbridge/Old Monkland from 1871 with a wife Elizabeth and children include a son John bc1854 Ireland.
Samuel's birthdate not what you're expecting, I know - but an 1838 birth would make him a very young father for John.
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Hi Ruskie -
Perhaps worth looking at his second marriage registration to find out Samuel's parents names.
Found 2 potentials on 1851 Census
Samuel Hendry age 11 born Irvine Ayrshire in Irvine
Samuel Hendry age 14 born co. Londonderry in Houston & Killellan (occ. Calico printer)
Looby :)
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There is a Samuel Henry, blacksmith, b abt 1822-3 Ireland in Coatbridge/Old Monkland from 1871 with a wife Elizabeth and children include a son John bc1854 Ireland.
The tracing back we find in 1861 Saml Hendry 35 b Ireland, hammerman, in Coatbridge/Old Monkland with wife Mary and children Elizth 11, John 8, Margt 6, Jane 2.
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2nd marriage ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT1Z-9XV
ev
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Hi
1891 census has a Samuel Henry age 69 with wife Elizabeth 50 and son Samuel 20 at 65 Alexander St., Airdrie. Samuel senior is a retired smith and Samuel junior a coachbuilder. 1901 census perhaps has Samuel Jun transcribed as Samuel Henric in Bells St, Airdrie, a coachbuilder and with wife Mary. Samuel senior born Ireland
Note that there is a birth for Samuel Hendry with parents Samuel Hendry and Elizabeth Wilson 15 Feb 1871 in New Monkland.
William
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The plot thickens ...
1881 census, in Airdrie. Samuel Hendrie, blacksmith lab, 53, born Ireland. (so DoB 1827/8). Wife Elizabeth, 42, born Ireland. Three sons: John McLaveny, 16; James McLaveney, 13; Samuel McLaveney, 10, all born Coatbridge.
These look like the family of John McSeveney and Elizabeth Wilson: Alexander b 1863; John b 1864; James b 1867, plus Samuel Hendrie, born 15 February 1871 to Samuel Hendrie and Elizabeth Wilson.
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:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I just typed up a reply and accidentally lost it! :'(
And on top of discovering that these wretched Hendries come from IRELAND!!! :'( I am actually feeling quite upset about that because it means the end of this research, and the third Irish line in this family I am tracing. With not even a clue as to whereabouts in Ireland they are from, I have no hope of finding them. Very sad.
Anyway what I said before I lost my previous reply was thank you to ev, avm and looby, and now also to William. I suspect you have all got the right family. Sad though I am that they are from Ireland, I am happy that they are found. :-\
I have a faint glimmer of hope with my Mary Campbell - surely that family has to keep me in Scotland. I will start a new thread about her later. ::)
Thank you all - I am very grateful. :'(
Was just about to post and got the red warning .... thank you Forfarian. (more Irish :()
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I have a faint glimmer of hope with my Mary Campbell - surely that family has to keep me in Scotland. I will start a new thread about her later. ::)
If I may be so bold, there are two reasons for not starting a new thread.
First, if you start a new thread, then people who have not read this thread may not realise that all this information has already been found, and they may duplicate what has already been done.
Second, if you start a new thread, then those who have contributed to it will not be notified of your futher enquiries about this family.
I venture to suggest that you should just carry on this thead, but I've altered the title to 'Samuel Hendrie and Mary Campbell'.
Have you got Mary's death certificate?
1861 census index has in
District 639 (Dalziel), ED3, page 4 Samuel Henry, 24, born Ireland; Mary Henry, 26, born Ireland: John Henry, 2, born Ireland.
District 652.2 (Old Monkland), ED 13, page 13 Samuel Hendry, 35, born Ireland; Mary Hendry, 31, born Ireland; Elizabeth, 11, born Ireland; John, 8, born Ireland, Margaret, 6, born Old Kilpatrick; Jane, 2, born Ireland.
Neither of these matches your Samuel and Mary's family, however, who were Mary, 1857; Samuel, 1857; and William, 1867. Unless it's the second family, and their daughter Mary had died, and they'd been back in Ireland for long enough for Jane to be born there in 1858/9.
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Good points Forfarian (although I would have provided a link to this thread had I started another :)).
I shall continue here.
Yes, I have Mary's death certificate.
She died May 3rd 1869, aged 40 years.
Where died: Jamieson's Land, New Dundyvan
Father: John Campbell ::) Land Steward, deceased
Mother: Jane Chalmers deceased
Husband Samuel Hendrie was the informant
I think we have a problem due to the common names. I have trawled through censuses in the hope of stumbling across a John Campbell, Jane and Mary but have not found a good fit and of course they may not have been alive to be included in any census.
I also checked Scotland's People for a marriage between John and Jane but got no results.
Sadly I do have to sign off now - many thanks for any help with this. :)
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Hate to be a killjoy - but is Mary not born in Ireland too? And first son John? (According to Census finds)
Looby :(
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1861 census index has in
District 639 (Dalziel), ED3, page 4 Samuel Henry, 24, born Ireland; Mary Henry, 26, born Ireland: John Henry, 2, born Ireland.
District 652.2 (Old Monkland), ED 13, page 13 Samuel Hendry, 35, born Ireland; Mary Hendry, 31, born Ireland; Elizabeth, 11, born Ireland; John, 8, born Ireland, Margaret, 6, born Old Kilpatrick; Jane, 2, born Ireland.
Neither of these matches your Samuel and Mary's family, however, who were Mary, 1857; Samuel, 1857; and William, 1867. Unless it's the second family, and their daughter Mary had died, and they'd been back in Ireland for long enough for Jane to be born there in 1858/9.
Avm found this family earlier - Samuel was a hammerman which fits with the occupation of my Samuel. It does seem a bit odd though ...
Yes looby, according to this census Mary is born in Ireland too. :'( I've just got back to this so will go through the finds carefully. Campbell! Surely she must be Scottish! Saying she is Irish has to be a mistake. :-\
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Hi Ruskie
Might be an idea to keep an open mind about the 1861 census entry. There is,for example, a census entry for Margaret Hendrie born Old Kirkpatrick 1854 in the 1871 census working as a domestic servant in Glasgow.
William
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Hi Ruskie
Might be an idea to keep an open mind about the 1861 census entry. There is,for example, a census entry for Margaret Hendrie born Old Kirkpatrick 1854 in the 1871 census working as a domestic servant in Glasgow.
William
Shall do thank you William, but in what way do you mean to keep an open mind?
I see that the dom servt Margaret in Glasgow fits with the Margaret from the 1861 census. :)
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Hi Ruskie
I was responding to your comment about it being a bit odd! My gut feeling, for what its worth, is that there is a good probability of it being the same Samuel in 1861 and 1871 but think you would probably have to find evidence of what happened to the various children to firm things up e.g there is the question of Samuel born 1861 and another Samuel born 1871 to explain.
William
Ps There are a couple of other articles I have now found about the drowning of Samuel Hendry in 1898 - one in the Edinburgh Evening News and another in the Southern Reporter. They don't contain any extra information but I thought I would draw your attention to them.
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Thanks for the clarification William.
I should have not been so vague with my comment about the 1861 census. I meant it odd that the family appears to have been in Ireland up until 1853 for the birth of John, then in Scotland for the birth of Margaret in 1855, and then back in Ireland for the birth of Jane in 1859. But I do understand that all may not be as it seems, but Margaret's birthplace of Old Kilpatrick is fairly specific.
And yes, the two Samuel's - it seems as though Samuel 1861 is the child of Samuel and Mary Campbell, and Samuel 1871 is the son of Samuel and Elizabeth Wilson, but I need to go back over it all as I think I might be missing something.
Thanks for the help and the additional information about Samuel's drowning. :)
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I have just noticed an error in my interpretation of Samuel Hendrie's second wife's name on his d/c. The image is very poor and I read her surname as Rilson. Of course now I realise that it is Wilson. ::)
So the marriage and children for Samuel Hendrie and Elizabeth Wilson look to be correct. :)
Thank you all again.
Added: I purchased the Hendry/Wilson m/c to confirm his parent's names and they are the same as on the Samuel's d/c -: Samuel Hendry and Peggy McCook.
I am wondering if it is worth looking for Samuel snr and Peggy in Scotland as perhaps the whole family emigrated from Ireland to Scotland ... :-\
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Hi Ruskie,
Were Samuel's parents recorded as deceased on his marriage reg to Elizabeth Wilson?
Regarding the Samuel born 1861 to Mary and the Samuel born 1871 to Elizabeth, I would suspect first Samuel has died. However :-\ I can't yet find a death on SP.
Looby
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There is a death of a Samuel Hendry with no age recorded in 1862 at Hoytown, Lanarshire which is not far from Coatbridge.
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Regarding the Samuel born 1861 to Mary and the Samuel born 1871 to Elizabeth, I would suspect first Samuel has died. However :-\ I can't yet find a death on SP.
Maybe he died in Ireland?
What about this, from GRONI online marriage index
M/1848/K1/1070/1/98 Samuel Henry Campbell 21st July 1848 Coleraine
M/1848/K1/1070/1/98 Mary Campbell Henry 21st July 1848 Coleraine
If you go there https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/ and buy some credits, you will be able to get an image of the marriage certificate. It won't be as informative as a Scottish one, but it will tell you the names of their fathers.
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That looks a possibility Forfarian . and thanks for the link to the GRONI site .
This must be a fairly new site - I took a summer break from Family History (to concentrate on my real family) and I'm ashamed to say I didn't know that site exsisted :-[
Looby :)
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This must be a fairly new site
Yes, it's only been up and running for a few months.
Marriages start in 1845, births and deaths not until 1864, and there are the usual sort of restrictions on more recent records.
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Were Samuel's parents recorded as deceased on his marriage reg to Elizabeth Wilson?
Yes Looby - Samuel's parents were dead when he married Elizabeth in 1869.
Thanks for looking Looby. Like Forfarian I did wonder if some of the events took place in Ireland which may be why we can't find them in Scotland. :-\
Thank you Forfarian, I will look at buying some Groni credits. It has been a long while since I looked at any Irish records but I dipped into a couple (unsuccessfully) today. That marriage certainly looks promising. :)
I also entered the surnames Hendrie/Hendry/Henry into the Irish 1910 census just to get a feel for where the family may have originated and the majority seem to come from Antrim, which fits in with the Coleraine marriage I think. So, I'm feeling quite positive and very grateful - thank you Forfarian. :)
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What about this, from GRONI online marriage index
M/1848/K1/1070/1/98 Samuel Henry Campbell 21st July 1848 Coleraine
M/1848/K1/1070/1/98 Mary Campbell Henry 21st July 1848 Coleraine
Are you able to offer any hints or tips please Forfarian?
I have registered with Groni.
How were you able to search (presumably without using any credits?) and get the results you did?
It is not very clear how many credits are required to view a record. A credit costs 40p but what can I see for 40p? How many credits would I need to view that marriage certificate for example? Help please .... :P
Added: I think I have worked out that you must have had some credits Forfarian which is why you were able to do this search? I did not find the information I needed on the GRONI site, but elsewhere on the internet ... Still can't see anywhere that tells me how many credits I will need to view a certificate. I will just spend 40p in order to do some searching and buy more credits later. :)
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I have managed to view the "enhanced" view of the marriage which tells me very little more except that they were both of 'full' age and they married in the Coleraine Registrars Office. :-\
Forfarian, do you know if the "full index view" contains further information?
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Ruskie just a thought... Looking like Samuel and Mary were probably both Irish born... Hope the marriage entry in 1848 is correct, only thing is you were looking for a Samuel born c. 1838 originally?
If Samuel and Mary did go back and forth until they settled in Scotland, wondering whether the 1867 birth for William https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQPY-MRD would let you confirm date and place of parents' marriage?
Monica
Added: Ahh, makes more sense, see AMV included:
...a Samuel Henry, blacksmith, b abt 1822-3 Ireland in Coatbridge/Old Monkland from 1871 with a wife Elizabeth and children include a son John bc1854 Ireland.
Birth year would make more sense, especially for a potential 1848 marriage.
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Hi Ruskie
I don't have any experience of using Irish resources but Chris Paton's blog "British Genes" is very good at flagging up Irish records and how to use them.
William
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Hi Ruskie
I don't have any experience of using Irish resources but Chris Paton's blog "British Genes" is very good at flagging up Irish records and how to use them.
William
Thanks William - a google search for how to find records on Groni led me to one of those last night. I will look again if there are more blogs on the subject.
The website told me nothing, but the blog helped a lot.
I am still a bit in the dark though, as I can't see any specific instructions. I still don't have any idea how many credits it will cost me to view an image - unless it is 40p for everything which is why they didn't even bother explaining further. :-\
Oh well, I shall stumble along and no doubt work it out eventually.
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Hello Monica, our paths haven't crossed for a while. Good to see you again. :)
Sadly yes, I think Samuel and Mary were Irish. I have been reading a little about Irish emigration to Scotland and there was a lot of tooing and froing, so all hope is not lost that Mary might be Scottish further back. :-\
When I saw the surname Campbell I felt sure she must have been Scottish. When I could not find either of the Samuels or John's birth place on SP, and noticed several Hendrie/ys were Irish, I suspected this family may have been Irish.
There is a little hope with Forfarian's find on Groni though. I already know Samuel and Mary's parents from their Scottish d/cs so if their father's names are given on their marriage that will be confirmation. With Groni records quite limited date wise though, I think it won't be long before I hit a dead end again in Ireland. And I am not confident with attempting to delve into Irish catholic parish records.
I will look at the birth of William 1867. I hadn't thought to look at this one so thanks for pointing it out! :)
[PS Monica I have several other questions/problems/brick walls with other branches of this family I am tracing, all except one of which are leading to Ireland - I will post separately about themin a day or so, as they are not related to this search, but would appreciate your insight if you are able to help .... ;D)
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Are you able to offer any hints or tips please Forfarian?
How were you able to search (presumably without using any credits?) and get the results you did?
You have to have at least 1 credit in your account, but if you do you can search the indexes and view the index results for free. I think (IIRC) that it costs 5 credits to view a certificate.
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Forfarian, do you know if the "full index view" contains further information?
You get a digital image of the original certificate, which includes the names of the couple's fathers.
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Thank you Forfarian - much appreciated. :)
At Monica's suggestion I have purchased the 1867 New Monkland b/c of William 'Henry'. This has indeed given the date and place of marriage of Samuel 'Henry' and Mary Campbell as 1850 D---(indecipherable place name) County Antrim, Ireland. As is often the case the image is not very clear, but the marriage year is definitely 185- not 1848. Not quite sure what to make of that except that maybe Samuel's memory was not the best - or the 1845 marriage is not the correct couple? :-\ I will still purchase the marriage from Groni though.
I am going to do a bit of detective work to try to see if I can come up with a likely place of marriage beginning with D.
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I am attempting to attach a snip of the certificate: It's a miracle! It has worked! :o
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Genuki does not have any place names which fit with this. Does anyone have any ideas? I was wondering if it may be abbreviated?
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Searching on Groni, I have noticed two marriages for Samuel Henry and Mary Campbell.
All details on the index are the same apart from the dates:
21st July 1848
27 Oct 1848
Might this be two couples or was the marriage registered/performed twice? Might there be any difference in the results if it is the same couple?
Any suggestions/advice most welcome.
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Hi Ruskie,
Irish place names not my forte but it looks to start with the same letter as the location of the birth which is also not clear ???
Jamieson's Land New D ????
So an Antrim location starting with D ?
Looby :)
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Is it a place name or is it Dec for December??
How are the other marriage dates written on the page?
i.e. complete date or year and month?
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More expense for you :-\ but maybe your going to have yo look at Samuel Hendrie born 1861's birth to see if dates and location of marriage are clearer. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQBZ-JW5
Scottish birth regs held a lot of info in 1855 , the year registration began. Some things like parent's wedding details were removed from the regs in 1856. They began recording them again in 1861. So I'd like to think Samuel's will have the info.
Looby :)
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Hi Ruskie,
Irish place names not my forte but it looks to start with the same letter as the location of the birth which is also not clear ???
Jamieson's Land New D ????
So an Antrim location starting with D ?
Looby :)
Yes, it's Jamieson's Land, New Dundyvan Looby. :)
Yes, purchasing Samuel's 1861 b/c might be the easiest solution to this ...
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From Samuel's 1861 b/c
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It is the correct family. They were living at 81 Merryston Sqr in the 1861 census ...
Looking at how Samuel's b/c is filled in, I think you might be correct Looby - it looks like William's b/c says his parents married in 1850 Decr . At least it looks like Samuel (dad) had a better guess about his marriage date this time. ::)
Does that say "County Londonderry"? :-\
[added: yes, looks like another name for County Derry - and apparently the capital is Coleraine :)]
I am especially unknowledgable about Northern Ireland. :-[
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Information from the Oct 27 1848 marriage of Samuel Henry and Mary Campbell:
Ballywillan Presbyterian (Manse?)
He is 27, she is 26
Both residents of Claypin/Cloyfin?
His father John Henry, labourer
Her father Hugh Campbell, farmer
Wits: Thomas B--th?, Joseph Campbell
married by licence.
So. Both fathers are wrong.
Samuel's father was Samuel according to Samuel's 1898 d/c and his m/c to Elizabeth Wilson. His mother was Peggy McCook on both.
According to Mary's 1869 d/c her parents are John Campbell (land steward deceased) and Jane Chalmers (deceased).
It looks like this is not the correct marriage certificate for my Samuel and Mary. Would you all agree?
Is t worth viewing the 21 July 1848 m/c? Or is that the same couple entered twice for some reason? :-\
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Good morning Ruskie (at least it's morning here on the very dreich (miserably wet) West of Scotland,
So the Oct 1848 marriage is discounted.
I have no idea if the July marriage record will be worth looking at. I know in Scottish records there can be 2 Old Parish Records for a couple - 1 in the groom's parish and 1 in the bride's. They also tend to be much closer in date (maybe a week or so apart). The Samuel and Mary on the record you've viewed are of the same parish.
The banns for the marrriage are recorded sometimes too in Scottish OPR's and that can be weeks/months prior to the actual event. I don't know if the same applied in Ireland.
It certainly looks like the birth of William Hendrie has 1850 Dec and Samuel 1847 Oct.
It's a bit strange ??? because not only has Samuel or Mary given two different dates 3 years apart! but the wedding has taken place in 2 different locations- County Antrim amd County Londonderry ??
So 1847 Oct County Londonderry
1850 Dec County Antrim
I'm sure the births are to the same couple. Not that many Samuel Hendries in Scotland!
Looby :)
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Good (my) evening Looby. Please send some of your lovely rain my way - we are in desperate need of it in my part of the world.
Yes definitely the same Samuel Hendrie and Mary Campbell in Scotland - addresses, occupations - everything fits.
I will see if Forfarian can offer any advice regarding the possible contents of the 21 July 1848 m/c - and whether or not it might be worth using a few credits on.
If one of the father's of the marriage was different I may have been able to accept it as an error, or a fib to cover illegitimacy or something, but for both fathers and both occupations to be wrong, and the date in question (though tantalizingly similar) does not tally either, I don't feel happy accepting that this 1848 marriage is for my Samuel and Mary. :(
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Well. Quite a lot of information then. And I suspect some disinformation.
First, both the index listings I copied from the GRONI web site have the identical date (21 July 1848), place (Coleraine) and reference number (M/1848/K1/1070/1/98). So this is clearly a marriage of a Samuel Hen(d)rie/y to a Mary Campbell. As is the one on 27 October 1848. I find it rather stretches my credulity that two Samuel Henrys should have married two Mary Campbells in Coleraine within just about three months of one another, but it's not impossible. You need to get the image of the other certificate and compare what they say. If both sets of residence and fathers' names are the same, I would incline to the view that these are two records of the same marriage, but if there is a difference, then they must presumably be two different couples.
I am not too bothered about the variations in the dates quoted in the children's birth certificates, because it's quite common for people to get this wrong, especially if they could not read and write and therefore could not check that what was written down was correct. Also, it is not unheard of for people's death certificates to have incorrect information, because obviously the person registering the death could only supply the information they knew, or thought they knew. It even happens that wrong infomation gets on to marriage certificates, especially if the people involved could not read or write.
So although the information is conflicting, I think that it is still possible that it is the same couple, and that more evidence is needed to be sure one way or the other.
Is t worth viewing the 21 July 1848 m/c? Or is that the same couple entered twice for some reason?
I think it is essential to view it and see what it says. Whether it is worth it is something you will only know after you have got it.
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Excellent advice and information, thank you very much Forfarian.
I have not yet found any conflicting information on my previous (limited) dealings with Scottish certificates, however of course it is logical that this must happen.
And ... it is timely that you should mention that as I have precisely that conundrum with another branch of the family (another Scottish/Irish family) though I am unsure if it is the correct certificate for the correct person .... :)
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Wrong couple again, but not the same couple who married in October.
Married 21 Jul 1848, The Registrars Office Coleraine
Samuel Henry, full age, labourer, father: Archibald farmer
Mary Ann Campbell, full age, father: Thomas farmer
Residence of both: Carnalbridge(?) Parish, Ballywillen, c Londonderry
So I think that might be the end of that. If I want to pursue this I might have to go over to the Irish boards though I still don't hold out much hope.
I suppose as two different dates were given for their marriage it is possible that they didn't actually marry and made up dates just for the children's birth certificates. :-\
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Astonishing! That means that there must have been three separate couples with the same names marrying at about the same time.
My apologies for sending you off on what now seems to have been a wild goose chase.
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What a shame :(
3 Samuel Hen(d)ry/ie 's marrying a Mary Campbell in roughly the same area at roughly time. ::)
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My apologies for sending you off on what now seems to have been a wild goose chase.
No apologies required. :) I am grateful for all of your help, and happy that you have made me aware of the Groni site. It is (almost) as useful to eliminate incorrect marriages as it is to find the correct one. :)
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What a hard search isn't it :-\
Have found Samuel Henry's sister though in Gartsherrie. She died in 1901, confirming again parents as you have from Samuel's certificates: Samuel Henry and Margaret McCook.
Also, the 1891 census for Hannah is great as it gives her birth place in Ireland, unusual as you know that this shows:
John Black 63 Weighman b. Derry, Ireland
Hannah Black 66 b. Derry, Ireland
Address: 112 Long Raw, Old Monkland
Snippet below from Hannah's DC:
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Hannah is easy enough to find on censuses as her name was consistently Hannah (not a variant). Also the family seemed to have lived at 106 or 112 Long Row for a number of decades.
The family look to have likely been in Scotland from the early 1860s. Can only see one child born in Scotland to them, as showing below in 1871. Everyone else showing as born in Ireland:
John Black 46 labourer
Hannah Black 50
John Black 19
Daniel Black 17
Margt Black 15
Mary Black 11
Matilda Black 7 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ7T-SJM
Address: 106 Long Row, Coatbridge
1881, at 112 Long Row, and only daughter Mary living with parents.
Monica
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Surprisingly for Family Search and Ireland....think I found their marriage back in Derry:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJV-65V
Monica
Added: Someone else researching this line here http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.black/4671/mb.ashx
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Hi Monica, Thanks so much for all the excellent information. I didn't even think to chase up Samuel's sister. Hannah must have been the sister in Gartsherrie that he was on his way to visit when he met his end in the canal.
The marriage of Hannah and John seems strangely similar to the 27th October 1848 marriage between Samuel Henry and Mary Campbell - that too took place in the Presbyterian Manse (I think the word was Manse) at Ballywillan.
Of course I am going to have to get some more credits at Groni to view the Hannah/John marriage certificate. :)
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Hannah's details seem to confirm you are at least getting warm in Ireland ;) That post on a/try that I added above gave a witness name for Hannah marriage as being a Thomas Henry, so maybe another sibling?
Monica
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I don't believe it!
There are NO father's names on that Coleraine m/c. :-\
(I will see if I can trace Thomas Henry ...)
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One other marriage showing on FS also at the Presbyterian Meeting House in Ballywillan Parish here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNT-7X1
Monica
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Thanks Mon, I will have a look at that one too.
I am in two minds as to the name of the witness Thomas Henry (allegedly):
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No wonder you are in two minds...He is Thomas Black rather than Henry isn't he!
Monica
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It initially looks like Henry but I am unsure about the H - looks more like a P to me (Thomas Percy? :-\) Is that the original signature? Or was the form filled out in the same hand? I have included a bit of the surname Henry on the left for comparison ...
Monica, I don't really know. I suppose the surname could be Black. But there looks to be a y with a long tail at the end unless that is a fancy k.
:-\
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I think I am going cross eyed now and seeing things that my brain wants to see! Def. not Black, nor Henry :P Agree with you on the possible last letter being 'y.
Monica
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Hi guys,
Been keeping tabs on this thread and have to concur. I don't know what Thomas the witness surname is ??? but I think last initial is a Y.
Looby :)
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Sorry ::) that should be last letter is a Y!
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Could it be Thomas Hanery? Another variant of Henry?
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Agree with Ruskie. It is the first letter which is hard. The rest does look like ..endry to me.
Also note that John and Hannah Black are on 1861 census. Their eldest son is called Samuel age 11.
William
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::)
Purchased the Ellen Henry Daniel Watton m/c. Her father is Archd. So the wrong Henry family.
It is looking like there were a number of Henry families in the area. The father of Samuel in the Samuel Henry/Mary Campbell marriage (21st Jul 1848) was Archibald too.
I think I will have to give up on this branch for the time being.
Thank you to everyone for all of your help.
I have just started working on another poser which is also sending me slowly mad. :(
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Ballywillan Prsebyterian Church is just outside Port Rush (my mum used to go on her hoildays there in the 1950s ;) ). It now comes under County Antrim.
http://www.ballywillanpci.org/
Looby :)
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the Presbyterian Manse (I think the word was Manse)
Yes. The Manse is the home of the minister of a presbyterian church, though originally it could have been the residence of any clergyman.
In Scotland, the normal place for a wedding ceremony was in the bride's home. However if the bride's parents were dead, or she was marrying a long way from her home, she might get married in her employer's house, or in the manse. Weddings in the actual church didn't become the norm until the late 19th or early 20th century. I imagine that something similar applied in presbyterian families in Ireland.
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Thanks for the clarification Forfarian. In other families I have researched I have seen couples marrying at home or in the Manse. I just found the writing difficult to understand in this example. :)
I need to do some research into Presbyterians in Ireland. My knowledge on the subject is non existent.
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A bit late to this thread, but I was up at ScotlandsPeople today and found this line for my brother-in-law. Might help?
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Thanks very much for your reply MarsKy. I’m afraid that I’m no longer researching this family - it is the family of a friend of my daughter. I’m very rusty on the details as so many years have passed since I worked on the family. Presumably this means that your brother in law is related to my daughter’s friend and her family. :)