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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Bellevue on Tuesday 04 November 14 21:01 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am researching my great grandfather who we believe was either in the RIC or Old IRA. We are more inclined towards IRA or the like. I have attached an image of a wooden chest which is believed to have some connection to whatever organisation he was a member off. Does the attached chest have any familiarities about it that maybe someone recognises? Perhaps it is just an old wooden chest that he bought and put his name on. However the story is is that this chest was at the end of his bed wherever he was .........based / training......... who knows.
I have searched RIC and Old IRA records and nothing comes up for him.
Did people ever change there names when joining these organisations back in the day?
Hopefully someone will see this picture and say "that is an old RIC chest or IRA chest"..............
Fingers crossed!
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Hi There
Do you want or have you already had help trying to find his background ?
Tara
Hi,
Apart from his obituary I do not know anything about his background apart from life events. He was apparently a very private man and did not give away details of his past.
If you think you can help filling in any blanks we have I would be grateful of the help.
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I would love to be able to help if I can !
So, shall we start with ~
His name, approx year of birth and place of birth ?
Tara
Patrick Cleary born 1881, Powerstown, Clonmel, Tipperary
This is him in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Inishlounaght/Chancellorstown_Upper/908625/
And 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Clonmel_Rural/Ardgeeha_Lower/1709975/
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Yes I know. I'm 99% sure he was not a member of the RIC, I was jut giving it as an option really..
From his obituary
"led the volunteer branch in Clerihan and was responsible for the training of several hundred men. His residence was subjected to a number of raids by Black and Tan forces and his house had been the venue for sittings of the Republican courts"
He was supposed to have gone to Dublin for a time also (verified by his daughter) and was in Dublin for the visit of King George V in July 1911, this is what he said.
There's not much else really!
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Would defo appear to have an allegiance to the Old IRA based on this !
Whether he was more involved or just assisted though is still to be seen !
http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1116.pdf
Tara
Yes, I have seen that. When they came out I was hoping he would be in it but alais that's all.
I have contacted the IRA pension board and he did not claim a pension. No record of him.
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I'm confused ;D
Is this you where the RIC is defo mentioned ?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68930636
Tara
! Wow, 2011. That's how long I have dipped in and out re. This man. I must ask my uncle about the wallet I mentioned in that post.
The archives searched the pension records I believe. They were very nice, even ringing me.
'as Gaeilge' - perhaps, never thought of that.
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Maybe I'm wrong But would an Old IRA man go all way (and it's a LONG way :o) from Tipperary to Dublin to see the King ???
No, not for the King. He went to Dublin for a few years. This is what his daughter says. She is still alive but knows nothing really of his young life.
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Would republicans/IRA have had an involvement that day in Dublin in 1911?
I'm afraid I have nothing else but old memorises to work with!
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When I used the word 'guard'. I do not mean literally (I think!). The way it was told to me was that he was there somewhere on the road as the King passed. In what capacity I do not know, but it was inferred that he was on 'duty' of some sort. Would an IRA man be on duty in Dublin along the streets the King passed.......I have no idea.
The wooden chest, which HE said was kept at the end of his bed.... he didn't go to college or anything like that so I can only presume it was given to him in this place he was staying.... in Dublin maybe.
If someone was able to confirm something about the chest, it may answer a whole lots of question.
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You can search the pension records just by county and there is no variation there that could be Patrick BUT as far as I'm aware the pension records mainly refer to those who were involved in the Easter Rising ( I might need to be corrected there though).
Tara
Anyone who took part in the War of Independence could apply for a pension, if you went on to be part of the National Army you could apply when they first began, if you were anti treaty you couldn't apply until some time in the 40s I think it was.
The pension records online aren't compleat yet and are more focused on Easter 1916 but you will see lots of people who were never near Dublin during the War appearing there soon enough.
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Have you considered he was both.
A lot of RIC men were sympathisers.
Or if he was training men he may have been stationed in an abandoned RIC barracks (my grandfather was) from around 1922, he could have picked up the wallet or chest there. Although I'd expect some sort of crest or such like if it was RIC.
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Have you considered he was both.
But then no record of him being in the RIC exists. Hence why I queried if people ever changed their names on entry. Or he could have trained but never finished and switched sides.....
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Yes I know. I'm 99% sure he was not a member of the RIC, I was jut giving it as an option really..
From his obituary
"led the volunteer branch in Clerihan and was responsible for the training of several hundred men. His residence was subjected to a number of raids by Black and Tan forces and his house had been the venue for sittings of the Republican courts"
He was supposed to have gone to Dublin for a time also (verified by his daughter) and was in Dublin for the visit of King George V in July 1911, this is what he said.
There's not much else really!
Even if he didn't apply for a pension, if he 'led the volunteer branch' than he should get a mention in someone's application, may not be online yet though.
The other names in that Dalton Witnesses Statement might be worth searching for.
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Could the Commemorative Committee help ?
I will try and make contact. Thanks for the hint.
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Even if he didn't apply for a pension, if he 'led the volunteer branch' than he should get a mention in someone's application, may not be online yet though.
The other names in that Dalton Witnesses Statement might be worth searching for.
Yes, the obit reads very well, you would image that some evidence exists about his involvement.
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Would this be the organisation he was involved with? I presume this is different to the IRA and the activities around the turn of the 1920's. He would have been 40 in 1921, possibly a bit old.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Volunteers
I have added a further line from this obituary. How does it read to you? Does it mean he stopped any activities from 1913 and just farmed?
From his obituary
"At the heart of Mr. Cle ary was a young farmer but as a young man ventured into other occupations, returning to the land in the early years of the national movement for independence, 1912-13. He led the volunteer branch in Clerihan and was responsible for the training of several hundred men. His residence was subjected to a number of raids by Black and Tan forces and his house had been the venue for sittings of the Republican courts"
I have searched through most files relating to the Clonmel area for memberships during 1921-22 and his name appears no where. This leads me to believe he was not involved in the front line during this period. BUT from his obit he was still targeted by the Black & Tans (and they didn't arrive until 1920.
http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/brief.aspx
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Would this be the organisation he was involved with? I presume this is different to the IRA and the activities around the turn of the 1920's. He would have been 40 in 1921, possibly a bit old.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Volunteers
It's not different from the Old IRA it's part of the old IRA.
This begs the question are you sure that is Patrick's obit?
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This begs the question are you sure that is Patrick's obit?
Yes, it is my great grandfathers obit. There is no uncertainly about this!
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Just having a look at my Grand father's application.
It doesn't look for anything before 1916.
If he wasn't 'officially' active after that time it's likely he won't feature unless someone says he was trained by him before that date, but as they don't ask for anything that early it doesn't look good.
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I wonder should we be looking at the IRB.
Irish Republican Brotherhood
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Just having a look at my Grand father's application.
It doesn't look for anything before 1916.
If he wasn't 'officially' active after that time it's likely he won't feature unless someone says he was trained by him before that date, but as they don't ask for anything that early it doesn't look good.
Are these 'applications' online. I have no trouble trawling through all/any Clonmel area applicants.
"Irish Republican Brotherhood "
I don't know. Is there a big difference? Where would I be looking for records for IRB membership or involvement?
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What year did he die BTW ?
Tara
1974. he was an impressive 94.
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What a great man !
Sorry, just to ask again, do you know who wrote the obit ?
Tara
No, but I plan to ask his daughter who is 91. But I'd say its unlikely she knows.
Correction he was aged 94.
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I think the problem that you are coming up against is that the vast majority of what you are going on is family stories ~ while they are lovely to have, we can't take them as gospel.
So, I'm trying put a timeline to him.
1901 sees him on the family farm and single.
1911 sees him on his uncles farm and single.
Is that right so far ?
Tara
Yes.
He married in 1919 (I think) and first child in 1920
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His obit then says that by 1912 / 1913 he was back on the land ?
Was that back on the family farm ?
Yes on the family farm. Through marriage and farm income, money did not seam to have been a problem for the family back then.
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A Rody Cleary was a 'judge' in one of the courts his home was later raided by the Black and Tans.
Page 15
http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1553.pdf#page=15
I wonder could a relatives story have got mixed in.
As Tara said do you know who wrote the obit.
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I can't agree, if he did the things the obit claims someone will have named him at some point. May not be online yet.
These, while illegal, were all military organisations, run along the conventional rules of the time. If he was training men he had a rank, if courts were held in him home he was well know in the area and respected, that can't have gone unremarked. Raided by the Tans, there had to be a reason.
His wife turned the arms away, why? It doesn't say, perhaps she knew a raid would happen, but he was trused by the men who called with the arms, why?
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5 minutes past curfew is a reason.
I know I know their conduct was even raised in the House of Lords, but they did raid the man's house, their attention was drawn to the house for a reason, maybe not a good reason or even correctly but for something.
My Grand father gets one mention and he was a Captain, so I know it's possible but I'm guessing if I looked he might get a mention in someone's application, they are not on line yet to look.
My Gran gets nothing although according to her she deserved the pension more that her husband. :D
The started the online records with the one's connected with Easter 1916 but a lot of lads didn't join until after that, than fell away and joined up again when conscription was expected during WWI, so lots more to go online yet.
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WOW
I am honestly stunned that you think that 5 minutes past curfew was 'a reason' to give a sick woman a beating.
I shall say no more on the matter and wish you well !
Tara
You said that was the reason.
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WOW
I am honestly stunned that you think that 5 minutes past curfew was 'a reason' to give a sick woman a beating.
I shall say no more on the matter and wish you well !
Tara
You said that was the reason.
I'm just reading what you said again.
Are you trying to imply I think that was a reasonable reason.
If you are you are very much mistaken.
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I am also very upset
What do you think I am.
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5 minutes past curfew is a reason.
This is what you said Sinann ???
Tara
Yes, that what is what I said, clearly that was the reason they gave, or you wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.
I didn't say it was a good reason, I didn't say it was reasonable, I didn't say it was a moral reason, I didn't say it was a gentlemanly reason.
It WAS their reason therefore it WAS a reason.
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WOW
I am honestly stunned that you think that 5 minutes past curfew was 'a reason' to give a sick woman a beating.
I shall say no more on the matter and wish you well !
Tara
This is what you said.
Implying that I agreed with their reason.
How dare you.
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Hi Sinann
Can I clear the air please ?
We are both here to help people with a hobby that we both love and it's a shame that this thread has gone sour.
Sorry Bellevue.
It's always tricky when you read the written form.
To me, yes it did read that you thought it was ok as it was 'their' reason.
Thank You for clarfiying.
I shall delete all my posts here if that helps.
I'm Sorry !
Tara
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I can't agree, if he did the things the obit claims someone will have named him at some point. May not be online yet.
These, while illegal, were all military organisations, run along the conventional rules of the time. If he was training men he had a rank, if courts were held in him home he was well know in the area and respected, that can't have gone unremarked. Raided by the Tans, there had to be a reason.
His wife turned the arms away, why? It doesn't say, perhaps she knew a raid would happen, but he was trused by the men who called with the arms, why?
Hopefully then at some point in the near future some record will go online listing his name. It does not look like I can do much more at this point except make contact with some local Old IRA committees and the like.
Do you know if there is a list of records due to be released?
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I shall delete all my posts here if that helps.
Did you mean to delete all of your posts in this thread because they are all gone!
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FYI
I have discovered what the chest is.
It was used by my g.grandfather when he was a member of the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) in 1903. I cannot pass comment on if all members had the same chest or each member had their own individual chest.
Thank you.