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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: doverrog on Thursday 06 November 14 18:37 GMT (UK)
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Hello.
I have come across some medals with reference to a Sir W.F. Miller.
The medals have either the young Victoria and old Victoria image. Except for one, which is a copper colour and star shaped, they are circular and silver. The star shaped one has 1914 on it.
All rather vague, but does anyone know of a soldier named Sir W.F. Miller? I imagine he would have been an officer as he was titled.
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Good evening,
Have found this one, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Miller,_1st_Baronet
John915
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Good evening,
Have found this one, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Miller,_1st_Baronet
John915
That was quick! Thanks. Does look possible. Shame nothing about any war record though. I wonder if it was a common name?
I do know that some of his affairs were dealt with by a solicitor in the city of London. Eastcheap, I think.
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Sounds more like his descendent, the 5th Baronet - Sir William Frederick Miller
http://www.mocavo.co.uk/Complete-Baronetage-1707-1800-Volume-5/470347/284
Last entry on page
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What does it say on rear of 1914 star it should have details impressed into it
Ady
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What does it say on rear of 1914 star it should have details impressed into it
Ady
Following up Ady's post, could you post images of the medals (and their ribbons if you have them) - either a digital photo or a scan should work - just line them up and take an image of both sides of the medals.
Sikey68's suggestion for William Frederick Miller (5th baronet) is likely to be correct, but as he served in the Boer War I would expect an "old head" medal, - it is possible that the younger head medal belonged to someone else from an earlier war.
Philip
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These are the 4 on a ribbon bar.
I've shown front and backs.
I also have some others.
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From left to right:
Queen's South Africa Medal with four campaign clasps
1914 Star (issued to soldiers serving in 1914, sometimes called the Mons Star)
British War Medal (issued to people serving between 1914 and 1918)
Victory Medal (issued to people on active service abroad between 1914 and 1918)
The Great War medal trio was nicknamed Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. I have simplified the entitlement rules but they can be found on wiki or other sites.
This collection of four medals on the bar is worth from £300 upwards (probably at least £500 depending on interest) - I envy you!
All the best
Philip
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f1ndmyp@st has a record of:
W F Miller, Lieutenant, Imperial Yeomanry, Invalided home. Late 7th Middx. V.R.C.
The Queen's South Africa (QSA) Medal Clasps: Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal, Rhodesia
(NOTE: The 7th (London Scottish) Middlesex Volunteer Rifle Company formed the First Volunteer Battalion of the Rifle Brigade)
The medal card index in the National Archive has a card for:
Captain F W Miller, The Middlesex Regiment (which could be your man)
The inscription on the reverse of the 1914 Star "B.R.C.S.& O.St.J.J" stands for British Red Cross Society and the Order of St John of Jerusalem.
All the best
Philip
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Thanks ever so much.
I will find the other medals and post some pictures of them as they may be of interest as well.
I was wondering what the letters meant and thought they may have been a title of some kind.
I will do some more research on the two Millers you've found, but as the medal is inscribed W.F., then I'm thinking that the Lieutenant of the Imperial Yeomanry who was invalided home, is the one to look at first. Would I be right in that the term "invalided home" might cover wounds and/or illness?
Does the Imperial Yeomanry mean forces intend for areas outside the European area?
I'd thought that Yeomanry were based around areas where they came from rather than a general term.
Thanks again.
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The Imperial Yeomanry (1899-1908) was set up specifically to fight in the Boer War. It comprised companies drawn from various Yeomanry regiments along with volunteers. After the Boer War ended, the recruits were sent back to their original regiments, the volunteers were posted elsewhere and the Imperial Yeomanry was officially disbanded. (There is a useful article on wiki giving more detail)
You are quite right that "invalided home" covers both wounds and illness (typhoid caused most of the deaths through illness but rheumatic fevers seem to be the major cause of debility)
Capt F W Miller is probably a red herring but I have had a further thought about Great War service. The 1914 Star does not have a rank inscribed on it, so it may be that Sir W F Miller was working for the Red Cross providing medical services (base or field hospitals or transport for example)
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Newspaper clippings which may be of interest:
London Times , 07/04/00 (Saturday)
p12 The Galeka sailed from Southampton last night with 63 officers and 1,019 men and 53 horses for service in Rhodesia. She will call at Teneriffe and then sail directly to Beira. Those named are:
Imperial Yeomanry – Lt.-Cols. R.K. Parke, and St. L. Moore; Major S.J. De Burgh; Captains, R.L. Moore, C. Barton, Sir Savile Crossley, A. Nicholson, W.A. Peake, T.A. Hill, T.A. Martin, M.B.C.W. Warden, and H.C. Carden; Lieutenants, H.I. Fuller, D. Marriott, W.C. Newton, Sir A.H. Armstrong, C.C. Macdowell, C. Langford, H.I. Curley, C.I. Dyke, The Earl of Fingall, R. Lamb, Sir R. Nelson-Rycroft, Harvey Dales, R.B. Muir, ?. A. Belville, Sir F.F.C. Fowke, C.E. Challiner, J.H. Coles, L.E. Pilkington, J.H. Torrance, W.N. Clark, H. Andrew, Sir W.F. Miller, N. Hotchkiss, M.A. Peach, I.W.A. Parr, F.W.J. Jones, H.C. Harvey, J. Browne, J. Corbet Warde, P. Gabbett, O.N. Seagrave, H.C. Ca;dwell, T.S. Mulland, and J.A.G. Hamilton; Vet. Officer F. Gregory; Dr. Whyte.
and a possible (although the Imperial Yeomanry could well have more than one officer named Miller):
London Times 06/11/00 (Tuesday)
p10b The Scot left Cape Town for England on October 31 with the following on passage home:
RA – Maj.-Gen. Downing & Capt. Atlay
Remount Dept. – Capt. Hughes
2/Bedfordshire Regt. – Lt. Stevens
Berkshire Regt. – Maj. McClintock
Staff — Capt. Evelyn Wood
I.Y. – Capt. Miller & Lt. Cazenove
RAMC – Civil Surgeon J.B. Christopherson
London Times 17/11/00 (Saturday)
The Scot arrived at Southampton yesterday with the following on passage home:
RA – Maj.-Gen. Downing & Capt. Atlay
Remount Dept. – Capt. Hughes
2/Bedfordshire Regt. – Lt. Stevens
Berkshire Regt. – Maj. McClintock
Staff — Capt. Evelyn Wood
I.Y. – Capt. Miller & Lt. Cazenove
source: http://www.britishmedals.us/files/sl1900.htm
All the best
Philip
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Thanks again. It interesting that in the newspapers he is shown by his military rank (Capt.) but medical people appear in RAMC.
Did the Red Cross have a separate medical corps and would that mean that he was likely to have been a doctor or surgeon? Did medical staff get an automatic rank according to the type of medic they were?
As he seems to have been a "Sir" would that have meant he would have been awarded the rank anyway?
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If Sir W F Miller is the Captain Miller on board the Scot in November 1900, he would have to have gone out to South Africa again in order to be serving in the campaigns named on the clasps for the Queen's South Africa medal - so I can't guarantee this is him.
I don't know much about the RAMC during the Great War - I believe that the Red Cross worked alongside the RAMC but were separate from the army.
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Thanks. I will press on with searching and will post pictures of the other medals which were with these.
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I think I found the medal card:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/medal-index-cards-ww1.htm
A search for William F Miller in the corps Red Cross came up trumps. The National Archive charges £3.30 to download a pdf file of the card (which won't give much information other than medal entitlement, rank and a date or two)
I'm looking forward to seeing the other medals.
All the best
Philip
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Thanks. I see what you mean.
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Taking a closer look I see -
Top left on card R.A.M.C. Royal Army Medical Corps.
Top Right on card R.A.O.C Royal Army Ordnance Corps.
Middle row left R.A.M.C again
Middle row right R.A.V.C Royal Army Veterinary Corps
Lower row left R.A.O.C again
Lower row right B.R.C. British Red Cross and S.J.J. Is this St.John Jesuit? This also has a different Roll number BRX/101B5 (?) where the others refer to the entry in the Corps box.
On the card shown in the middle row left there is an entry "Dept Suk BW&VM" then a Roll and Page number followed by a remark "Deleted Auth Emc 26* (?)
I also see that his rank is given as Pte (Private) in the top two, Sgt (Sergeant) in the left one middle row then Pte again with the last, bottom right, card not showing a rank. Would this mean he was not ranked when serving in the Red Cross & St John?
It seems strange that someone with a title, Sir, is not an officer.
Any thoughts on about these entries please?
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I've got more medals than I realised so I will post more pictures.
Any help or information about them would be very welcome.
A couple I believe I've identified as you will see in the pictures.
Please bare with me for several posts as I have a few photos to post.
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Some more
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More details from the Star above including inscription.
Some medal ribbons which have become detached from above medals and I don't know which goes with which.
A single case and the medals on the bar in their case.
If you can help with anything about these medals it would great to know about them.
Thanks in advance.
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To start things off:
Your uploaded picture M3 - left image
British War medal (1914-18) with correct ribbon
British War medal (1914-18) with wrong ribbon (ribbon is for the Cape of Good Hope general service medal)
Victory medal (1919) with correct ribbon
Victory medal (1919) with wrong ribbon (ribbon is for the Queen's South Africa medal)
Your uploaded picture M3 - right image
1914 (or 1914-15) Star with correct ribbon
Cape of Good Hope general service medal 1900
Queen's South Africa medal
British War medal (1914-18)
Incidentally, the National Archive copied Medal Index Cards 6 to a page - they have sent you one page containing images of cards for six different people!
All the best
Philip
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Hopefully you should be able to match the loose ribbons to their medals (and correct the mismatches I raised in my previous post:
Cape of Good Hope general service medal 1900 - equal vertical stripes - blue/black, yellow, blue/black
Queen's South Africa medal - unequal vertical stripes - wide orange centre, narrow black, red edge
1914-15 Star - equal vertical stripes - red, white, blue
British War Medal - unequal vertical stripes - wide orange centre, narrow white, narrow black, narrow blue edge
Victory medal - vertical stripes - rainbow effect
The medals should have a name inscribed on the rim which will enable you to sort them into "who got what" groups.
I haven't yet identified the two ribbons on the bar but I am working on it.
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re the 1914-15 Star for Corporal T S A Miller. The abbreviation below the name stands for the 2nd Light Horse regiment of the Australian Imperial Forces. To the best of my knowledge this regiment served in Gallipoli and Palestine fighting against the Ottoman Empire (Turkey).
All the best
Philip
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The two medal ribbons on the bar in your image M9 are for medals issued by the United States of America:
(left) Army good conduct medal - vertical stripes varying widths red and white
(right) European-African-Middle Eastern campaign medal - vertical stripes varying widths red, green, grey, black and white (for 1942-45, issued in 1947)
The two medals on the left in picture M5 are:
Queen's South Africa medal, with Cape Colony clasp (1899-1902)
Cape of Good Hope general service medal with Bechuanaland clasp (1896-97)
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Many thanks for all the information philipsearching. I can now match up the ribbons.
I'm surprised at the variety of where and when they were awarded. For example the American and Australian medals. It seems they may have been awarded to different people. They also cover a large span of years and locations from South Africa to Europe and Asia.
After your initial reply I have been looking into the medical area, but it seems I have a variety of medals awarded for "conventional" soldiering as well.
From what you've been kind enough to tell me so far, I imagine that the "Pip, Squeek and Wilfred" ones are fairly common, but you said you think that the "collection of four medals on the bar is worth from £300 upwards (probably at least £500 depending on interest)". Do you think any of the others would be valuable, especially as I seem to have some cases for some?
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Greetings.
It is difficult to put an accurate value on medals because much depends on the rank or fame of the person to whom they were issued and whether or not that person was killed in a famous action (for example a medal trio for a soldier killed on the first day of the battle of the Somme, or a seaman killed at the battle of Jutland, or an airman shot down by Baron von Richthofen). Medals for Sir W F Miller would, because of the knighthood, be rarer and more valuable than the same medals issued to Corporal Miller. Sets of medals issued to one person are worth more than the combined value of single medals. Original cases also add value. Rarity (of either the medal, the clasp, the set, or the regiment) is also a factor.
To get an idea of medal values I suggest you look at a specialist website (such as http://www.british-medals.co.uk/ or http://www.liverpoolmedals.com/) and an online auction site (such as e-bay).
Very approximately the lowest values are:
Indian mutiny medal (with no clasps) £200
British South Africa Company medal (with no clasps) £450
Queen's South Africa medal (with no clasps) £90
Cape of Good Hope general service medal (with no clasps) £150
1914-15 Star £30
British war medal £18
Victory medal £18
British war medal and Victory medal pair £45
British WW1 medal trio £100
US ribbon pair on bar £5
Bear in mind that these are the lowest values and that the value could be multiplied by 2 or more times depending on historical interest.
Personally, I do hope that the medals remain in the family (I was very upset when I learned that my Dad had pawned his medals so they are lost to the family!), but if they must be sold their value would be increased by having documents to go with them (service records, obituaries, photographs etc.)
All the best
Philip
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Hello Philip,
You are a real help and I'm pursuing several new avenues as a result.
Now I can get the medals into order I can see where I'm going a lot more clearly.
I intend to follow up on the weblinks you sent to check the values out further. As to selling them, I'm unsure at the moment and will be discussing it with family.
Thank for all your help,
Roger
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Hello
I have hopefully matched the correct ribbons to each medal and I'm posting updated photos.
If possible could you confirm I have them both identified correctly and with the correct ribbons?
Reading from left to right on the upper photo of the fronts, are these - The Queens South Africa Medal, The 1914 Star, The British War Medal and the Victory Medal?
I've posted photos of both sides.
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These are the photos of the medals which are not on a bar.
I've shown both sides.
Again reading from left to right, are these The Indian Mutiny Medal, The British South Africa Company Medal, The Queens South Africa Medal, The Cape of Good Hope Medal and the 1914 Star?
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And the third group. Reading from left to right. Are these The British War Medal x3 and The Victory Medal x2?
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Spot on! The medals have the correct ribbons.
One small adjustment - medals with fitted campaign clasps *such as the Cape of Good Hope medal) need to have the ribbon threaded behind the clasp so it can be read.
I am highly envious of your collection!
All the best
Philip
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The ones on the bar would look really good court or swing mounted though it would cost you to get them done (but worth it) :)
Dee
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Spot on! The medals have the correct ribbons.
One small adjustment - medals with fitted campaign clasps *such as the Cape of Good Hope medal) need to have the ribbon threaded behind the clasp so it can be read.
I am highly envious of your collection!
All the best
Philip
Many thanks Philip.
I will rethread the ribbons so they are behind the clasp.
Now for the next step of reading the rims and seeing who got what.
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The ones on the bar would look really good court or swing mounted though it would cost you to get them done (but worth it) :)
Dee
Something I hadn't thought of, but thanks for the idea.