RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: davidlstern on Tuesday 11 November 14 23:16 GMT (UK)
-
Trying to trace the family of Patrick McCall - I know he was born in Ireland, and that his son Patrick John McCall was born in Glasgow (mother listed as Juda) on Jun 20 1857, that in the census of 1871 the family (including another son David) was living at Glasgow Calton, and that Patrick had died by 1888. Searching for any mention of them in the 1851 or 1861 census, any marriage record for Patrick and Juda, any birth record for David, or any leads that would tell me where in Ireland Patrick was from.
-
What was their address on the census record?
-
All I have is a reference to Glasgow Calton - have not seen the actual page. In 1857 the family was at 16 Dixon Square, Finniston Street according to the birth certificate of his son Patrick John. Patrick is listed as a labourer on the certificate.
-
The 1871 census in Calton refers to 14yr old Patrick McCall who lives with his Irish grandparents, Joseph and Ellen Currie.
Have you looked at the 1857 birth?
Is the mother's name Juda or is this a mistranscription?
The 1857 birth that you give is the only birth that I can find giving a mother's name of Juda.
However, FS does have an 1853 marriage between Patrick McCall and Margaret Currie.
Therefore 14 yr Old Patrick on this 1871 census is the child of this couple.
( There is no David in the household at ! Millroad, Calton)
Joseph Currie 71
Ellen Currie 73
Barney Currie 29
Joseph Logan 8
Patrick Mccall 14 Grandson B Glasgow
Joseph McLean 27
Barney Douglas 26
Could Juda be Margaret Currie?
EDIT:
As a 4yr old ,Patrick also lives with these grandparents.
It's the same address as 1871
-
I have been looking at that birth certificate since 2001 and I still cannot answer that question - Juda has never made any sense but that is what it looks like, and then there is the added complication of her maiden name being listed as McCall as well. But I think what makes the most sense is what you are suggesting, which also explains why there are no further records of Patrick senior in Scotland after that birth - he probably went home and died there.
I will start looking at that path and see what other records emerge - many, many thanks!!
-
David,
The man I posted about is not your Patrick John McCall.
His name was Patrick McCall, born 3 May 1856 in Glasgow.
Someone with a tree on Anc has all the info and documentation for him, his marriages , death etc.
I suspect that his man can be excluded from your research unless he married twice in Glasgow and died in Glasgow 1933.
Who/where did your relative marry or how did you ascertain that his father's name was Patrick?
Is he the man who married a widow in London in 1888?
If so, this seems to be the ONLY time he uses Patrick in his name.
Other records simply show JOHN McCall.
-
Hmmmm. All I really have is that birth certificate for Patrick john McCall from Jun 20 1857 listing his parents names and the fact that his father was an Irish laborer. My wife's mother had a good deal of information about her grandfather's life after he went to Rhodesia as a teacher around 1880, but nothing beforehand other than that that birthdate and the fact that the family was scots-Irish catholic.
Not much to go on I am afraid!
-
And yes, he is the man who married Catherine Knox in London in 1888, took a teaching post in Blackburn the following year, and by 1901 is in Hamilton teaching.
My wife's uncle knew him and told me his name was Patrick.
-
Does the birth certificate actually give his name as Patrick John McCall?
-
I know he married Catherine, but do you have a copy of the marriage that actually says his father was Patrick?
This man bears the hallmarks of John McCall b 23 Dec 1855 son of William McCall and Margaret Balfour.
This John McCall was a school-teacher and can be tracked on census returns from birth to 1881.
He certainly looks like the same man from the 1891 census after marrying Catherine
If you have a copy of the 1888 marriage, and it says thae father's name was Patrick, then of course, this John McCall can also be discounted from your research.
-
I believe I do have that certificate, but will have to check tonight. I had the birth certificate out last night and he is listed as Patrick John Mcall, son of Patrick and Juda.
-
David,
On your OP you stated that father Patrick ( labourer) was deceased at 1888.
The only document where this information could be found, is on the marrige of Patrick John McCall to Catherine Vignole in 1888.
Without it, there is nothing to connect the 1857 birth certificate to the bridegrrom on the 1888 marriage.
-
There are no 1857 births registered for a Patrick John McCall/McColl on the SP birth index
-
I agree Sancti,
The 1857 birth shows simply Patrick McCall.
My concern is that the OP has selected this birth record at random, but he also gives other info that must have come from somewhere?
This is the man that I am lookung at
1871
4 Dumbarton Rd Glasgow
William Mccall 61
Margaret Mccall 56
Sarah Mccall 32
John Mccall 15 b Glasgow. PUPIL TEACHER
Robert Belfow 68
1881 Melvick Inn, Reay Caithness
John McCall 25 b Glasgow Public School Teacher
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
!888. Patrick John McColl marries Catherine Vignole in London
1891 Blackburn Lancs
John Mc Call 33 B Glasgow. Elementary Head Teacher
Catherine Mc Call 33 Wife Born London
Thomas Mc Call 1
Andrew Vignole 16
Mary Vignole 15
Thomas Ratcliffe 12
1901 Tuphall Rd, Hamilton
Name Age
Patrick John Mccall 43 B Glasgow. Elementary School Master
Cathrine Mccall 45 Wfe Born London
Thomas Vincent Mccall 11 son B Blackburn Lancs
-
First, of all, thank you again.
I apologize for not having the file with me - it is 9:00 in New York and I will not be with it again until tonight.
That said, I was looking at Patrick John's birth certificate last night (which I acquired in 2001 from the records office), and it most definitely has his name as Patrick John McCall, born Jun 20 at the address cited above, with parents Patrick McCall and Juda McCall (and that is also listed as her maiden name.
I am 99% certain that I also have the marriage certificate of Patrick and Catherine Knox from 1888, and that this is how I learned that Patrick's father was dead and that Catherine had a previous marriage and children - I will confirm that tonight. It has been a decade since I looked at it, and have only started relooking at it now due to the recent passing of both of Patrick's grandchildren. I am also pretty sure that it says Patrick John McCall.
With all that said, I can also confirm that you have the right census listings for 1891 and 1901 - so the John McCall theory is certainly a new wrinkle proven by the 1891 census. Thomas was born in July of 1889 in Blackburn, and Andrew and Mary Vignole were Catherine's children from her first marriage.
-
I can't work this out....
Patrick McCall and MARY Hughes married in Glasgow in 1851
In 1861 they lived at:
Dixons Square,182 Finnieston St, Glasgow[/i
All children found for this couple were born between 1856 and 1866 and appear on Family Search
As their daughter Margaret was born in Jun 1857 and appears on this return they cannot be the parents on the 1857 birth cert for Patrick John.
The address however, does seem to tie in with the OP???
-
When and where did Patrick John die?
-
There is a possible death
Patrick John McCall b 1857, Died in 1927.
Death is found on Minor Records under Consular Returns.
Therefore this man must have died overseas.
If this is the correct death,his wife/widow and his parents names should be listed.
-
Patrick John did in fact die on Jan 10 1927 while on a pilgrimage to Lourdes. I think I have that certificate as well and will check it tonight.
-
David, this must be the entry/cert you have https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F79Z-LNL
Monica
PS: Can you add a snippet of image with mother's name? Likely an issue with writing and indexing for her?
-
It is the one. I have the certificate and can post tonight - it sure looks like Juda....
-
Catherine his wife died on 30 Jun 1905 in Hamilton. Patrick John then remarried Elizabeth Lankton.
-
It is also indexed as Juda too ;D Likely writing is hard to decipher for sure.
Stage at a time with this all....
Let's see the snippets from the birth. Also, I think you mentioned you also have details of the 1888 marriage to connect to this too? The death in Lourdes will also help, with any details it holds if you have this.
Couldn't see Patrick/John's birth on the Roman Catholic database (leaving out mother's name) on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk so will leave that for now until we have further info.
Monica
-
Catherine his wife died on 30 Jun 1905 in Hamilton. Patrick John then remarried Elizabeth Lankton.
Have you got this second marriage cert to let you reconfirm his parents' details?
Monica
-
Okay, links to the documents in question:
Birth Certificate of Patrick John McCall
http://sternhome.net/home/genealogy/Documents/BMD%20Certificates/patrick_john_mccallB.htm
Marriage certificate of Patrick John mccl and Catherine Knox Vignole:
http://sternhome.net/home/genealogy/Documents/BMD%20Certificates/patrick_mccall_and_catherine_vignoleM.htm
Death Certificate of Patrick John McCall
http://sternhome.net/home/genealogy/Documents/BMD%20Certificates/patrick_john_mccallD.htm
-
As you (hopefully) can see, a consistent story of name and birth...
-
One more clue which may or may not help. My wife's uncle, the grandson of our Patrick John, told me once that he thought his grandfather had a brother named David who moved to Glasgow and became a coach builder. He thought this brother was older, and that their father had emigrated to Scotland around 1850. I have not verification of any of that, but it is in my notes.
-
Hi David,
I can see now that Patrick John McCall was the son of Patrick McCall and Juda McCall.
I also note that "John" does not appear on his birth cert
I am stumped!
I can find no trace of him between his birth and 1888 marriage.
I have looked at every Juda (all surnames) and Patrick/Peter McCall ( all variant possibles) at 1861 and 1871 and no one seems to fit their profiles.
As he seems to have added John to his name, I wonder if he was raised by another family or if the RC church was involved?
He is a mystery
-
He is indeed, but thank you again for trying! I have never been able to crack this one...
I guess one explanation is that he and Juda were married in Ireland, went to Scotland as laborers, and then returned to Ireland before 1861. The family were originally Scottish and presumably part of the Cromwell relocation program, so perhaps there were still distant relatives in Glasgow. I wonder if the mythical brother David the coach builder is a potential clue.
Thanks again!
-
Have you checked for death records of his father in Glasgow prior to 1861?
-
I had looked at one time, and could find nothing for either Patrick or Juda McCall between 1857 and 1861.
-
Hi,
Been reading through the thread. :)
Finding it a bit of a co-incidence that Patrick McCall was born in 1857 at 16 Dixons Square , Finnieston Street Glasgow and that there is a family with head of household Patrick McCall at that address on 1861 Census.
Looby :)
-
Thought this was quite interesting :-\
1851 Census - 157 Main Street Finnieston Glasgow.
John McColl Head age 28 married Foundry Labourer born Ireland
Mary McColl Wife age 23 married born Ireland
Patrick McColl Brother age 24 unmarried Foundry Labourer born Ireland remark Lodger
Michael Hughes Brother age 20 unmarried Foundry Labourer born Ireland Lodger
The couple on the 1861 Census at Dixons Square are Patrick McCall and Mary McCall m/s Hughes.
Looby
-
RC baptisms have this record
Bapt.01/03/1856 MCCALL PATRICK son of PATRICK MCCALL & MARY HUGHES at GLASGOW, ST PATRICK'S
-
RC baptisms have this record
Bapt.01/03/1856 MCCALL PATRICK son of PATRICK MCCALL & MARY HUGHES at GLASGOW, ST PATRICK'S
Think there's a separate Statutory Birth Record for that one ???
david has a birth cert for Patrick Mcall born June 1857....
-
I have also looked at this info for a bit today...and got nowhere :-\
Juda is not a name really. So very unique...and however it ended up there as Juda, sadly that, and the same surname of McCall is all we have for now. Which for me has not helped.
I saw there was a death in Anderston, Glasgow in 1859 (from general searches on SP), where Patrick John was born, for a Patrick McColl. There is no age showing on the index although likely the age shows on the image of the death registration.
David, as mentioned earlier, where did Patrick John remarry for a second time? You mentioned a remarriage after the death of first wife, Catherine, in 1905 in Hamilton. From the name of second wife you gave, Elizabeth Lankton, where did this marriage take place. Couldn't see it on Scotlands People. If it happened in England, the cert won't help further as again only fathers' name will be showing.
Tried to find a David McC*ll, coach builder (or something related!) 1881-1901, but again got nowhere with that.
Monica :-\
-
Could Juda be Judith? Or Judy?
I still find the co-incidence of the Patrick and Mary (Hughes) McCall having children and living at Dixons Square Finnieston Street intriguing.
Added - this address is the place of birth for the Patrick born to Patrick and Juda McCall
I wonder if Juda and Patrick were not married??
Could little Patrick be somwhere on 1861 with his mother or grandparentS ??
Looby :)
-
OK, this is a snip from that death in 1859. The address is 16 Dixon Square, where Patrick was showing as born in June 1857.
However, this is for a 3yr old Patrick, son of Patrick McColl and Mary Hughes. Died of worm fever (sound awful, won't google) and buried at the RC cemetery of Dalbeth.
-
Aww the wee soul ! :(
The couple John and Mary McCall (m.s. Hughes ) I found on the 1851 are also having McCall children throughout the 1850s and 60s including a Patrick in 1863 ::).
Wonder if the brother Patrick aged 24 Foundry worker is the Patrick married to another Mary Hughes?
Looby :)
-
Thank you all again! It has been a long mystery for me, and additional sleuths are most appreciated
Unfortunately Patrick John's second marriage was in Sheffield in 1908, so the certificate will not help much.
Juda is a name that appears in Ireland, but I think the odds of both her first name and her maiden name (McCall) being correct are small. I am intrigued by the idea that they may not have been married, and the McCall as her maiden name could have been a cover....
-
Hi david ,
Patrick and Juda not being married is a possibility and you are right McCall could have been given as her maiden name when it wasn't.
Maybe I've watched too many soap operas in my youth (hate them all now!), but I'm wondering if Patrick McCall married to Mary Hughes and living at Dixon Court strayed from home :-X . It's just strange that the address for the birth of Patrick and Mary matches young Patrick's birth address.
Then again maybe there were 2 Patrick McCall's , labourers in the area....not impossible.
Looby
-
On the issue of the address of 16 Dixon Square, I would think this housed many households. I say that because on the 1861 census I cannot see 16 Dixon Square coming up as an address but at 'Dixons Square,182 Finnieston St, Glasgow' which Annep mentioned earlier, in 1861, there are over 200+ entries showing (I stopped counting!). As we know with Scottish addresses in the big cities at that time, you need to undestand the naming and the sense of the numbering to make any sense of them.
Monica
-
Oops sorry, I think I misunderstood , I thought the address for the 1861 McCall family was 16 Dixon Square :-[
So what we know is:
Patrick born to Patrick and Juda (m/s McCall) McCall is born in Jun 1857 at 16 Dixon Court.
Patrick born to Patrick and Mary (m/s Hughes) McCall dies in 1859 at 16 Dixon Court.
But 16 Dixon Court could cover a whole tenement block.
Patrick McCall born 1857 cannot be found on 1861 Census.
It's a bit of a mystery.
Looby
-
I am going to throw this in there, otherwise I will loose it all.
I have never come across a Juda at all in Scottish research...so big stand out for me at least on that name. My bible on first names and variants, www.whatsinaname.net, shows nothing at all :-\
We have Juda McCall showing as Patrick's mother in Anderston in June 1857.
I have found this entry for a birth of an Elizabeth Murray in Anderston in 1859 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQWG-NB8 father a William Murray and mother a Judan McCabe.
For 1861, I think this might be Judan McCabe: Criminal prisoner, occupation in a Cotton Mill. Aged 20 and born in Glasgow. Entry shows at North Prison, Glasgow Inner High.
This entry showing also in 1861:
William Murray 21 General Lab b. Glasgow
Elizabeth Murray 1 Lodger's daughter b. Glasgow
Address: 125 Main St Back Land, Anderston, Glasgow
Daughter Elizabeth Knox reported her mother's death in 1912:
-
National Records of Scotland http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/welcome.aspx show:
1861: Precognition against Margaret Russell, Jude Ann McCabe for the crime of theft at Main Street, Anderston, Glasgow.
Accused: Margaret Russell, wife of Hugh Russell, boatyard worker, m.s. Martin, Age: 21, Address: Stobcross Street, Anderston, Glasgow
Jude Ann McCabe, Address: Stobcross Street, Anderston, Glasgow
And further documents:
Accused Jude Ann McCabe, Verdict: Not proven, Sentence: Assoilzied simpliciter and dismissed. Note: The Advocate Depute withdrew the fourth and fifth charges.
Guessing she must have been in prison awaiting trial whilst the 1861 census was taken given the dates around April 1861 (7th of April for 1861).
No idea if this is the Juda McCall we have for Patrick's birth a couple of years earlier in 1857 in the same area of Anderston...but the closest I have seen so far to a name so destinctive.
Monica
-
That's interesting Monica.
I've been perplexed by Juda too! There is a few Juda's/Judah's on the 1851 according to Freecen.
Wonder if it's how registrar's picked up an Irish accent saying Judy?? As in the last letter being a as in acorn - Jud-a??
Been trying to find Patricks with Jud*** on 1861. No joy yet.
Looby :)
-
Judan becomes Joanna (which I am so much happier with as a name) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTT4-6JD
No idea if this Judan (and variants) McCabe may be connected to Patrick John in 1857...but it is maybe a chink of a possibility ;)
Monica
-
Here's another Juda ::)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB46-FDY
Juda McCANN
-
...Don't know/can't see yet how to connect any of these dots back to Patick John b. June 1857 :-\
Monica :)
-
I think finding Patrick (John) on the 1861 has to be the answer.
By the way found another Juda - they are crawling out the wood work now ::) -
a Juda Hughes who marries a Michael Joyce in 1862 at Bridgeton ??
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTYM-KZP
Added - this should be Judah
-
Just dotting i's and crossing t's here.
There is an RC marriage at St. Patrick's Church (right slap bang in Finnieston/Anderston area) on 22nd Aug 1851 of a Patrick McColl and Mary Hughes.
More excitingly there is an RC birth/baptism on 1 st June 1857 at St Patrick's for
a Patrick McCaul to a Patrick and Judith.
And I've no credits left to look!!
Spent this months quota already :(
David, I'd have a look at the RC Birth/Baptism.
Looby :)
-
I am sitting next to my wife on a plane between New York and Los Angeles marvelling at what you have uncovered!!! The convict theory makes complete sense to me, less so to my wife as it is her family.
The baptism on Jun 1 1857 cannot be our Patrick John, as we know he was born three weeks later.
-
Not sure where to begin with the rest of this!
First of all, can we tell on the 1861 census for William and Elizabeth Murray whether William is the LODGER or the HEAD? Would be very strange if Elizabeth is the daughter of him and Judan that she would be listed as the Lodger's daughter if William is not the lodger - would make me think that he is not the real father.
I too think it possible that Juda was a Scotch interpretation of an Irish Judy, and highly likely that McCall was not her real maiden name - leading me to believe that it is something close like McCann or McCabe, or to believe that they were not married at the time.
It is perhaps telling how little the descendents know of these people - my wife's uncle, who was a very intelligent man interested in his family history, was only 4 when his grandfather Patrick John died but remembered the events and knew the entire history of his life - but when I asked him about Patrick's parents, he said that his father had not known anything other than the fact that his grandfather was Irish. So perhaps there was a reason they did not speak of it.
There are also a large number of coincidences here. Elizabeth Knox reported the death of Judan the criminal - Patrick John married a Catherine Knox. Judan later married a Thomas Hughes - and we have the link to a Patrick living as a lodger with a Hughes in 1851. There was a Patrick McCall who married a Catherine McCabe in 1851, and I looked hard at that union as a possibility but they had children throughout the 1850's. I know that these are common names in the area at the time, but still interesting to see the names come up again and again.
The answer would have to lie in the 1851, 1861, or 1871 census data - by 1881 Patrick John was likely in Rhodesia, which is why he does not appear, and in 1891 and 1901 he is in Blackburn.
I have no idea what to do with all of these theories!! You are much better detectives than I am!
-
Actually, it looks like William Murray and Juda McCabe - often listed as Judith Ann (could Juda be an amalgamation of the two names) - had a long relationship and several more children once she returned from gaol, so that shoots that theory...
-
Please do not discount that baptism record David,
It may not be your Patrick McCall ...but
the date of the 20th June may actually not be his date of birth....
The birth was registered on the 20th June 1857...it had become compulsory to register births two years earlier in 1855....but some people slipped through the net...and some were a bit tardy in attending to it!
We only know that the birthdate of June 20th was given to the registrar by the person registering the birth...in this case Patrick snr (who can't read or write).
Patrick jnr, later known as Patrick John might always have considered his d.o.b to be June 20th but it might not have been the right date.
The couple as RC could have had the baby baptised pretty smartly after birth as was common but dragged their heels on registering him.
We haven't found much trace of the family. I think a baptism of a Patrick McCaul with a father Patrick and mother Judith around June 1857 at a church a stones throw from where they lived is worth looking at. :)
We haven't found any other births of a Patrick McCall/McColl/McCaul to a Patrick and Juda/Judith. So who is this wee baby being baptised??
Looby :)
-
Just as a post note to my previous post David -
I have a friend whose father was born in the 1920's in a very rural location in Scotland in the dead of winter during heavy snow weather. His birthday was celebrated on 23rd Dec, the same day it was registered....he only discovered as a grown man from one of his older siblings that he had actually been born prior to that date...but no-one could remember when?!
When he questioned his, by this time, elderly mother , she told him that with all the work on their farm, older children, lack of transport and the terrible weather they hadn't got round to registering his birth very quickly. And when they did , they couldn't remember exactly which the day his birth was. Time and dates weren't that important to them...so they just gave him the birthdate of 23rd Dec.
-
Fair points and thanks for raising!
How do we get a look at that baptism record and what info May it contain? The English records are pretty simple....
-
Great find Looby ;)
And so it is, the correct one ;D
-
From this, Patrick and wife Judith were Catholic and married. The word 'lawful' after child's name confirms this. The baptism took place at St Patrick's in Glasgow.
I can see where the confusion over dates arises from the image and the indexing of it. Two dates given; date of birth and date of baptism. Unfortunately, each column is on either side of the spine of the ledger. As can be seen above, the image has a shadow and angle too at this point. I am thinking birth was written as 20 June as you have on the statutory register and the baptism maybe 21 (can't be 31st!) of June.
Witnesses names were a William Murphy and a Sarah Curran (think it is Curran).
No other children showing on the RC baptism registers to a couple with these names. Searching for parents as:
P*t*r* M*c*l and mother only as J*d*
So what happened to them after this is still a puzzle....but at least confirmation that Patrick and his parents show elsewhere on record apart from the statutory registers and confirmation from the RC entry that Patrick's parents were married indeed.
Monica
-
Hurrah! At least we've turned something else up!
Had wondered if perhaps Patrick when he registered birth had just said child was born that same day. But it turns out to be a indexing error caused by the spine of ledger disguising correct date.
David www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - you will need to buy 30 credits for £7. Look for Catholic birth and baptism register option. Search for McCaul Patrick parents Patrick and Judith date 1st June 1857. This will give 2 results (both the same - one relates to birth/one baptism I think) . 6 credits will allow you to view original register page.
So I wonder what happened and where Patrick Jnr was 4 years later at 1861 Census.
Just throwing this in to the mix -Could Patrick have died and Judith remarried - new surname and Patrick under step fathers name ?? Wouldn't be the first time that's happened ....and he reverted to proper surname later in life. Just a suggestion to consider David :)
Looby :)
-
Been studying an enlarged screen of the snapshot of the baptism record.
What a pity Judith's maiden name is not recorded ???
Yet the one above and below are!
Do you think that's because her maiden name was the same as the married name Monica?
-
Sorry Looby...just back.
That could be the reason. I know with SP when you search the death statutory registers, if you are searching for a married woman with the same married and maiden surnames, they only index it once and leave the other surname box on the screen blank. This also means that you cannot use both surnames to search either to try to narrow down results, which is a pain. You have no way of knowing if the search page results are for a married or unmarried woman with that surname (when you are researching MacDonalds in the Highlands, as I did, this is a pain :'().
Not sure if the Catholic records did the same. If they did, may be less uniformly by parish perhaps? Some would, some would not perhaps.
The problem we have here is that searching now for deaths, for example, for a Jud* M*c*l (with just one surname) only brings up one death entry and this is in 1902 and she is too young to have been Patrick's mother as she shows under the age of 50.
Monica
Added: Looking up and down the page, 30+ entries at least, only Judith's maiden surname is not included. For all the other married couples, the mother's maiden surname is given.
-
Added: Looking up and down the page, 30+ entries at least, only Judith's maiden surname is not included. For all the other married couples, the mother's maiden surname is given.
Also just noticed that Judith is the only wife where the words ' his wife ' are written. Maybe because of this issue with the surname being the same in this case?
-
Sorry, got waylaid with cooking ;D
Yes I wondered about his wife and not a surname.
I'm no authority on RC marriages /births etc. But would a couple have to prove they were married or would the priest take their word that they were at face value. Not casting aspersions at Patrick and Juda/Judith - just wondering for future research. (Just discovered one line of my own were RC in Wigtownshire /also Irish origins)
Looby :)
-
I would say that the Catholic Church are likely to have been much more vigilant than perhaps some Clerks and Registrars given the nature of the RC Admin...but as always, there are margins for the unexpected ;D
Cannot find any of them...before or after 1857 and Patrick's birth. Searched England and Scotland. Also looked a little at Ireland (statutory registration for RC events began in 1864 I believe)...but I am stuck again!
You mentioned, David, that Patrick John headed off to Rhodesia around 1880 to teach?
Monica
-
Wow! It is wonderful to see some real confirmation of these two people!
The idea that Judith's maiden name was McCall is confirmed by the registered birth certificate, so in my mind this curiosity on the RC register is a second data point for that.
The Rhodesia tidbit came from my wife's uncle - have never had any idea how to confirm that. Any ideas?
-
Do you think he could have gone through involvement with a Church ?
-
No idea. He was clearly deeply religious, dying in Lourdes.
-
Ah, so he did (die at Lourdes, I mean) . So he obviously was very religious.
He could have gone through a church to Rhodesia. How you could find that out for definite I have no idea. Sorry :-\
-
You may have this already... Do not know whether Patrick John's will would throw any light on possible family members for him?
In the National Probate Calender (Index of Wills and Administrations), there is this entry:
Partrick John McCall of 1 Alwyne Road Canonbury Middlesex died 10 June 1927 at Hotel Heins Rue de la Grotte, Lourdes France. Administration 22 July London to Elizabeth McCall, widow. Effects £352 7s. 9d.
I do not have experience on how to go about obtaining hard copies of these documents, but many here on RC will be able to advice.
Monica
-
There was nothing of interest in the will - he had only the one son, the second wife, and not a lot else.
Is there anything of interest in these witnesses from the RC baptism?
-
Hello All,
On the index for Patrick Mccaul's, birth the mother name is Judith Mccaul.
Regards,
Jonn.
-
This one is a real puzzle, Jonn. Good to have you onboard too :)
Monica
-
Hello Monica,
The index clearly shows two entries exactly the same both under Baptism's, mothers surname are both Judith Mccaul, which in normal circumstances would mean that is her maiden name. I have hundreds of RC. records from my own family and that has always been the case.
So i would say all evidence seems to point to the Statuatory Record for the 1857 birth and the one for the RC. birth are the same person.
Regards,
Jonn.
-
Just an update for those of you who have been helping me so much. I have found a birth for a Judith McCall in 1833 to a Peter and Margaret McCall in Killshandra, county Cavan Ireland - pretty much exactly where you would expect to find McCalls and when you would expect Judith to have been born. The only other records for a Judith McCall in the area are a Judith McCall and Francis Carran just over the border in county Monaghan, who start producing children in the 1860's - I have not found a marriage record. So I am wondering if we were right earlier, that Patrick senior may have died and Judith remarried, bringing young Patrick John with her back to Ireland. There are a lot of Patrick McCalls in the area at the time, but of interest there is a probate record from 1858. Have not been able to find any of these primary records and may never do so, but at least it is a solid lead!
-
David, just adding link to the Irish/Cavan post for more background (you never know who will see what!) www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=705458.0
Not sure about finding any probate/wills necessarily for Patrick Snr given he showed as a labourer didn't he in the records we have for him...but maybe life improved over the following years.
Frustrating always on the Irish side (as many of us know :-\). We stay hopeful though always ;D
Monica
PS: the Francis you mention, Callan rather than Carran likely, as you have on the other post.
-
Thanks Monica! Yes it is Callan not Carran..
I know - expectations are low. Would be great to find an 1871 census entry from Ireland that has 14 year old Patrick John McCall living with this Callan family in Ireland, but I know that won't happen. There do seem to be a far number of RC parish records from the area though, including Ballybay, so perhaps there will be a marriage record that tells us Judith was a widow. That would be at least something.
Otherwise this mystery I fear will never be solved.
-
Not sure if anyone checks back after years have passed, but I felt I should provide an update to all of those who helped!
I came across a new piece of information about our missing Patrick McCall. There is a record from the Chelsea Pensioners hospital from 1859 which lists a Patrick McCall from Drumgoon, Cavan who is in the military. I have also returned to look at the Currie family of Glasgow, in which a grandson named Patrick John McCall who fits the timeline of the confirmed birth of this Patrick Jr. in 1857 and lives with his grandparents in both 1861 and 1871. Of further interest, the witnesses at Patrick Jr.'s baptism are a William Murphy and what looks like a Sarah Currie.
Putting this all together, the most likely answer to my McCall problem is that Patrick Sr. had a child with Judith Currie in 1857 and then went into the military, leaving his son with his grandparents to be raised. There are no death records for anyone in this Currie family, so presumably sometime after 1871 the grandparents returned to Ireland. And I have no idea what happened to Judith.
This fits all the facts except one - the listing of "Juda McCaul" as the mother's maiden name on the birth and baptism documents. Juda fits with Judith. I cannot explain the McCaul, but I am tempted to chalk that up to the unknown under the weight of the rest of the evidence,
-
Hi David,
Interesting find with Patrick McCall at Chelsea Pensioners hospital - how sure are you he is the father of Patrick John McCall?
I contributed to this thread back in 2014 - and I've skimmed back through it to refresh my memory.
I'm sorry to throw a spanner in your works but I don't think your Patrick John McCall is the child with the Curries in 1861 & 71. There is a Patrick McCall born to Patrick McCall and Margaret Currie at Calton on 3rd May 1856 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQRM-LTT
I think this is the child with the Curries.
I still feel the Patrick McCall married to Mary Hughes at Dixons Square on the 1861 Census is a possible father from Patrick John. I'm not convinced Juda/Judith was married to her child's father.
Looby :)
-
So much for my theory! Thanks for the extra information - I will go back to the drawing board!