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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: Truebrit on Wednesday 12 November 14 21:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Whilst trying to investigate the ancestors of my James Moulding who married Emma Lee in 1863 in Leicester, although is never at home during the Census' i stumbled across a newspaper report of an incident.
The incident took place in August 1875 in Leicester and the newspaper reports that James Moulding was set upon by his brother Edward Moulding in a house in George Street. The report states that it was his mother's house. A Witness, Clara Brown, is referenced as the house being her father-in-laws house and another witness later refers to it has Brown's house.
I am hoping that the above can help me unravel who James' parents were. I now seem to have details of a brother Edward, a sister is referenced in the report although not by name, and it would now appear that his mother is living in Brown's house - is she Mrs Brown? And could Clara be married to a Brown son or could Brown be a step father (often referenced as father in law).
On his marriage entry no father is listed so i am wondering if he is illegitimate. He would have been born around 1842 according to his age of 21 at marriage, Emma being listed as 19.
Any help appreciated!
Regards
TB
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The article i found covering the fight with Edward was less clear about there being a relationship between the Mouldings and the Browns.
I've found another press report from 1871 referring to a James Moulding as one of a group involved in robberies. he was tracked to a lodging house in Britannia St. Only issue was they were referred to as boys, whereas your James would be nearly 30. however i mention this as in Britannia St in 1881 we find
Edward Moulding 38 - b Leicestershire; Labourer
Mary Moulding 36
Elizabeth Ann Moulding 16
George Moulding 13
Edward Moulding 10
Mary Ann Moulding 8
Emily Ann Moulding 4
Sarah Ann Moulding 1
Cartherine Moulding
David Cox 40 - lodger
RG11, 3169, 44, 19
sadly he's not easy to trace back. I suspect the boys are somewhere under a different surname
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Thank-you for that.
Interestingly James Moulding and Emma Lee's abode on their marriage certificate in 1863 is Britannia Street.....
Perhaps someone can look up Edward Mouldings marriage to Mary Richardson in Leicester in 1866 to see who Edward lists his father as?
Regards
TB
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Who are the witnesses for James and Emma's marriage? they may give clues
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Witnesses are given as James Bell and Elizabeth Wade - so no help really!
TB
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There's a report in the Leic Chronicle 27 March 1869 of a James Moulding of Leic stealing (with Robert Blair) a tame fowl from somewhere in Little Dalby. This was heard at the petty sessions at Melton Mowbray; James's occ was given as shoe finisher.
Might this be your James? Does the occupation fit? If so, is there any connection with the north side of the county that you know of?
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Leic Chronicle, 7 Oct 1871 -- James up to no good again -- charged with robbing a till and stealing a pipe. The Britannia St lodging house is again mentioned as the place where James was apprehended.
April 1874 - James Moulding charge with assaulting his wife; she was living in Royal East St at the time; he left town soon afterwards.
17 May 1878 - " A violent fellow James Moulding alias Brown" in court again, living in Birstall St
That last looks v hopeful as an extra clue!
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Some burials that may well be linked to the family (either Emma and James and/or Edward and Mary)
Welford Rd, plot uA 342
MOULDING CAROLINE 1864 MAY 19 8MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING JAMES 1873 MAR 19 8MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
I don't know how this grave "worked" as there were 3 other tinies buried there on the same day as Caroline, suggesting a communal grave; but then little James was buried in the same grave 9 years later. Then there were 3 further burials; altogether, names of Harrison; Clements; Beck; Merrall; Yeomans.
PLot uS 1820C is Edward's family
MOULDING ADA 1883 SEP 14 7WKS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING KATE 1886 OCT 6 6MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING MARY ANN 1888 MAR 8 3MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING THOMAS 1875 AUG 19 8MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING EDWARD 1881 AUG 13 38 LEICESTER INFIRMARY SAINT MARY
(plus others)
so that (and the census) gives a dob for Edward around 1843
In plot uS1335C
MOULDING ADA MEE 1890 JUL 31 3MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
years after Edward's death and I suspect James and Emma weren't having babies by then either - I include Ada as she's from the same road (though I think Britannia St was a rather overcrowded place!)
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MOULDING ADA 1883 SEP 14 7WKS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING KATE 1886 OCT 6 6MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING MARY ANN 1888 MAR 8 3MTHS BRITANNIA STREET SAINT MARGARET
not sure these are directly Edward's as they would have been born after his death, but they could be grandchildren?
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Yes - or his widow could have had more children out of wedlock
(I did say "family" rather than trying to guess relationships!)
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Now I presume that Emma Moulding was back with her parents (Edward and Elizabeth Lee) in teh 1871 census; there's one Moulding child, Maria age 1.
Interestingly though the same Emma is with the same parents in 1881; she still describes herself as married, but she has 3 more Moulding children - Mary A, Ellen and Arthur, aged 5,3 and 1. So was James the father of these children too?
Emma then married William Dixon in Nuneaton area in 1882. Was she widowed by then? (I can't see any death for James Moulding).
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I did find these but nothing for Edward's children
St Margaret
MOULDING ELIZABETH EMMA 1876 28-Feb
St Peter Leic
MOULDING ELLEN 1874 JAMES & EMMA 06-May
Edward marrying 1866 is register office
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Thank-you for your help.
Yes Emma is with her parents in 1871 and 1881. By then i have identified the following children to the couple who are born in Leicester - Caroline 1863, Elizabeth 1865 (baptised in 1873 in Leicester), Clara 1866 (baptised in 1873 in Leicester), Maria 1870 (baptised in 1873 in Leicester), James (1872-1873).
It then appears that Emma moves back to Hinckley, which would tie up with the article that you found about James beating his wife up (did it say his wifes name?). In Hinckley more children are born - Mary Ann 1876 (baptised in Hinckley in 1889); Ellen 1878 (baptised in Hinckley in 1889) and Arthur 1880-1881.
Ellen is the ancestor i am researching. Her birth certificate lists James Moulding a Bricklayers Labourer as the father.
As you say Ellen marries Willliam Dixon in 1882 at the Zion Chapel in Nuneaton - she lists herself as Widow although i think that she wasni't as i can find no death for James. A more likely death for James is the one in 1910 - at the Poor Law Infirmary.
James seems a bit of a one - fortunately he is my wifes ancestor!
I havent found him on any census - although i have a James Moulding (a bricklayers labourer) with a wife Elizabeth and daughter Florence living in St Margaret in 1881. James' age is described as 49 though. I cannot find a marriage reference for this couple of a birth reference for the daughter - so perhaps James has just shacked up with her. That may have prompted Emma's marriage to William a year later....
The interesting thing is the connection to Brown. If James was illegitimate as per his statement on his marriage to Emma then perhaps his mother married a Brown. But where are the Brown's on the census and can we start to work out more about James' whereabouts in 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871, 1891 and 1901. And who is his mother....
Thanks again as i feel like progress is being made.
Regards
TB
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Willsy
Thanks for those. Are they baptisms? The first for Elizabeth in 1876 seems to list Emma as a single woman... could this be the Elizabeth born in 1865, although i also have a baptism for her in 1873.
The second is interesting as it appears that James and Emma may have had a second earlier daughter called Ellen in 1874. Is that a baptism at St Peter, Leicester?
Ellen is the ancestor i am researching although she was born in 1878 from her birth certificate and therefore this first Emma must have died between 1874 and 1878. I can see a death in All SAints, Leicester and burial on 16/05/1874 at Welford Road that seems to tie in with this.
This is getting interesting.
TB
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Leic Chronicle, Sat 2 Nov 1878 - a bricklayer named James Moulding, of Short Street (reporting an ankle injury)
(just from the bricklaying pov!)
The James Moulding who died in the Poor Law infirmary in 1910 is buried in Gilroes, plot Kk121
MOULDING James 69 Poor Law Infirmary Leicester 09-Feb 1910
other occupants of this plot are
LEAVESLEY Caroline 64 Poor Law Infirmary Leicester 13-Oct 1910
SIMONS Thomas 59 106 Mere Road / City Mental Hospital Leicester 19-Dec 1934
JAMES James 75 11 Denmark Street Leicester 05-Feb 1946
JAMES Mary Ann 77 11 Denmark Street / Hillcrest Leicester 06-Feb 1947
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I've just checked the pre-1837 baptisms to see if there was a James Moulding bapt in leic then but the only one I see was in 1825, so definitely too old.
The school register CD doesn't have as much info as would be really helpful, but it does list an Emma Moulding dob 14.12.1877 - is that her? She is actually listed as Emma (Smart) Moulding ---
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Yes St Peter Leics is that baptism, but have found James's sister I think, have just been looking at the article and
Sarah Cart is mentioned in the article
Register office Sarah Moulding marries Charles Cart
1871 Q4 7a 521
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Thank-you
So thats three children - Edward, James and Sarah. Another article about the same incident infers that James has sisters so there must be more. But where are the family on the census!
Regards
TB
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The only Charles Cart I can find in the area of marriageable age in that period was one b c1826, who dies in 1875. he was single on 1871, so a possible. Then there's a Sarah Moulding b Leicestershire c1826-8. She's in the infirmary in 1871 (single, charwoman), not on 1861 as yet, in the workhouse in 1851 and here in 1841 (in St Margaret With Bishops Fee)
John Moulding 55
Sarah Moulding 55
Elizabeth Moulding 20
Matha Moulding 20
Sarah Moulding 14
Mary Moulding 2
HO107, 604, 19, 31
I wonder if she is the boy's aunt rather than sister?
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Ok here's a thought
1861 Wade family RG 9; Piece: 3489; Folio: 54; Page: 13
Benjiman Wade 43
Elizabeth Wade 44
James Wade 19
Edward Wade 15
Caroline Wade 12
Mary Wade 10
Sera Wade 8
Clara Wade 2
They are all from Leicester except Clara
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I suspect this is Sarah's grave
Welford Rd R1 2822
CART SARAH 1895 NOV 9 60 LEICESTER UNION HOUSE SAINT GEORGE
I presume this was Charles, from the George St address;
Welford Rd I 639
CART JONATHAN 1852 JUL 4 62 73 BEDFORD STREET SAINT MARGARET
CART EMMA 1852 JUL 4 18 73 BEDFORD STREET SAINT MARGARET
CART ISABELLA 1871 JAN 10 73 BEDFORD STREET SAINT MARGARET
CART CHARLES 1875 MAR 4 51 GEORGE STREET SAINT MARGARET
THACKER MABEL ELIZABETH 1905 JUN 24 2MTHS 62 WINDERMERE STREET LEICESTER
THACKER WILLIAM 1907 MAY 1 73 77 CLARENDON STREET LEICESTER
THACKER SOPHIA 1923 MAR 26 84 18 WALNUT STREET LEICESTER
so that would give a yob of 1824 for Charles, so a yob of 1835 for Sarah (as per top listing) would be perfectly feasible.
OTOH I can't see a Sarah Cart in Leic in the 1881 census --
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1871 Elizabeth and Benjamin Brown with Clara
RG10; Piece: 3277; Folio: 26; Page: 8
Birstall Street !!!
just dipping into 1851
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I have them in 1851!!!
Class: HO107; Piece: 2088; Folio: 696; Page: 24; GSU roll: 87716.
Benjamin Brown, Elizabeth, James, Edward and Caroline - living in George Street!!!
So now for the marriage!!!
TB
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Got sidetracked in 1881
RG11; Piece: 3169; Folio: 10; Page: 15
Benjamin a bricklayer's lab.
As there are Pawley's in the house...wait for it
Samuel Pawley and Mary Wade Register office Q3 Leicester 7a/337
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Glad you found that :)
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I can't see any marriage for Benjamin Brown and Elizabeth (no surprise there with this family!)
but I have found an Elizabeth Moulding in 1841 in St Margaret's (?SImpson St? It's difficult to read)
John Moulding 55 Stocking maker
Sarah 55
Elizabeth 20
Martha 20
Sarah 14
Mary 2
all born in county
(sorry, just realised this is the same family as is mentioned above)
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Have a marriage Register Office
1845 Q2 MOULDING Elizabeth Leicester 15 139
to James Wade
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My head is spinning! How does all this tie together?
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So I was on the right track! I also got to the 1841 family
How it works is Elizabeth Moulding has James and Edward, then marries James Wade. By 1851 she appears to be with a Benjamin Brown, and the boys are called Brown but in 1861 they are using the Wade surname again! She has more children, including a Clara.
Note Elizabeth Wade, witness to James Moulding’s marriage.
Elizabeth's sister Sarah marries Charles Cart
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Yep, mine was spinning!
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so why is Benjamin's surname given as Wade in 1861?
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And are James Wade and Benjamin Brown the same person??!
TB
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Spinning madly again!!!
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I think those Moulding girls were economical with their ages too.
Baptisms at St Mary's:
MOULDING JOHN & SARAH 1815 25-Jun ST MARY'S THOMAS
MOULDING JOHN & SARAH 1817 29-Jul ST MARY'S ELIZABETH
MOULDING JOHN & SARAH 1819 01-Sep ST MARY'S MARTHA
MOULDING JOHN & SARAH 1823 25-Aug ST MARY'S WILLIAM
MOULDING JOHN & SARAH 1825 19-Dec ST MARY'S SARAH
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Don't forget ages are rounded down in 1841. Elizabeth's age fits in later years
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James and Elizabeth
St Margaret's bap.
WADE CAROLINE JAMES & ELIZABETH 1847 02-Sep
WADE GEORGE JAMES & ELIZABETH 1849 23-Dec
St Mary
WADE EDWARD MOULDING 1846 JAMES & ELIZABETH 7 Oct
WADE JAMES MOULDING 1846 JAMES & ELIZABETH 7 Oct
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Elizabeth's grave?
Welford Rd, uQ 1479
BROWN ELIZABETH 1887 SEP 17 71 GEORGE STREET SAINT MARGARET
no other Browns/Wades/Mouldings or other familiar names in the grave
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Looking for James Wade, i am attracted to one on 1841 b c1821. He's in the Leicester House of Correction!
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And James' sister Clara marries Frederick Price - the other perpitrator of the original enquiry.
Thanks for all your help - all this from a few clues in an article!
But are James Wade and Benjamin Brown different people?
TB
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Mabel, I hope you're not impugning the good name of the Wade/Moulding/Brown/etc families! ::)
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There's that James Wade in 1841, then a James Wade b 1815 in 1881 who lives alone but declares himself married. I can't see him at all inbetween these dates. He seems to have died in 1890 in the infirmary, and is buried in a common grave in Welford Rd.
If this is indeed him, we know he can't be AKA Benjamin, as Benjamin also appears with Elizabeth in 1881.
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I would say James Moulding is buried with his sister
1864 3 LEAVSLEY Frederick Leicester 7a 347
to Caroline Wade. They are all Register office....Frederick Price too
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I am wondering if Benjamin and James are the same as the person in 1861 in Sheffield has a mixture of the two names - Benjamin Wade.
TB
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Willsy, where do you think James is buried?
ignore that! That makes him the person in the 1910 burial in Gilroes
and makes Emma's marriage to William Dixon bigamous ::)
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Is there a marriage place/date for James Wade and Elizabeth Moulding in 1845?
TB
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Leicester, q2 on freeBMD - but maybe Willsy has more details
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It's a register office one 1845, this is the only marriage that matches
Leicester, All Saints 31-Oct 1807 Banns
John Moulding OTP
Sarah Cook OTP
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Can I try to summarise for my own clarification?
Elizabeth Moulding bapt 1816 to John and Sarah
has children James and Edward before marrying James Wade in 1845 (and we'll never know who the father was for those children, I suppose)
Then with James Wade has another daughter, Caroline in 1847
by 1851 she is with Benjamin Brown and they hace more children - Mary, Sarah, Clara; they move temporarily to Sheffield then back to Leicester.
Elizabeth's sister Sarah m Charles Cart.
Elizabeth's son James has a variety of names - Moulding, Mouldinig aka Brown, Wade, James Moulding Wade ---- He marries Emma Lee in 1864. They have some children - how many? not known for sure.
By 1871, Emma is living with her parents again
and by 1881 she's still living with her parents but has had 3 more children; she acknowledges she's still married but atm we don't really know whose children they are.
James may possibly be living with another woman by 1881.
Emma m William Dixon bigamously in 1882 and has more children with him.
James's sisters Caroline m Frederick Leavesley, Clara m Frederick Price and Mary m Samuel Pawley. His brother Edward m Mary "Someone" (and died in a cart accident - inquest reported in paper)
James dies in 1910.
Have I got all that right?
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Their boys birth are as Wade and added Moulding in the baptism so I don't know, I think Edward marries as Moulding to Mary A Richardson, again Register office and I agree you have it right.
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That all looks about right to me - although it looks like James and Edward may be James Wade's children as there are GRO references for a James Wade in Dec 1841 and for an Edward Wade in 1845.
Thank-you for the tremedous help on this - real forensic research!
It looks like James Moulding turned out to be a bad egg like his father!
Does the newspaper state the date of death for Edward Moulding?
Also, which do we think is the fathers death/burial - James Wade 16/07/1890 aged 74 or Benjamin Brown 13/09/1890 aged 67?
Regards
TB
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Didn't we do well! ;D
Edward:
Leic Chronicle Sat 31 August 1881
FATAL ACCIDENT On Thursday an inquest was held at the Swan and Rushes Inn on the body of Edward Moulding, aged 38, labourer, Britannia St. Deceased was employed by the Borough Corporation to drive a sanitary cart. He had been out all night driving the cart on the 3rd of August, in company of Thomas Payne, to whom he had complained of feeling ill. Payne left him just before 6am, and he was soon afterwards seen by some workman on the Welford-Rd lying across the front of the cart. The men ran to stop the horse, but before they could do so the deceased had fallen and his head was crushed against the wheel. He was taken to the Infirmary in an unconscious state and died there on Wednesday from fracture of the skull. He had had nothing to rink all night, and was quite sober. Verdict, "Accidental Death"
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Thanks
As his father James Wade/Benjamin Brown was clearly also a bit dodgy is there anything in the papers about him. I mean he started out in a House of Correction in 1841.....
TB
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Also, which do we think is the fathers death/burial - James Wade 16/07/1890 aged 74 or Benjamin Brown 13/09/1890 aged 67?
Depends on which you think is the father ;)
Seriously -- Benjamin Brown died in the infirmary and is buried in a common grave.James Wade died in the Union House and again is buried in a common grave.
I suspect that even if you got the death certs, it might not get you much further as in my experience, deaths from either of these places simply gave the superintendent's name as the informant.
The Leic RO was working hard to get admission details to the workhouse digitised; I don't know how far they've got with that but if you want to find out if this is the correct Benjamin, it might be worth contacting them to look at the workhouse records.
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We can't be sure that it's the right James in the house of correction, can we?
I did have a look at the papers for both of these men. The only item that i could confidently identify was when Benjamin was called as witness when his son in law Samuel Pawley was assaulted. I saw nothing else for either name that I could confidently pin on either individual.
Edited to add - There are lots of mentions of James Wade "a well known character" appearing in court on several charges of theft in the late 1830s, but how would we know if this is the right person?
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I am sure that Benjamin and James must be the same person. In 1841 he appears to be James Wade, in 1851 he is Benjamin Brown, in 1861 he is Benjamin Wade and in 1871 and 1881 he is back as Benjamin Brown.
The hybrid in 1861 has got to be key there - surely.
The records office seems a good bet. The Workhouse records might be interesting!
Regards
TB
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For the sake of completeness, this might be Elizabeth Moulding's brother Thomas's grave
Welford Rd R 2860
MOULDING WILLIAM 1868 SEP 30 43 BEDFORD STREET SAINT MARGARET
MOULDING THOMAS 1876 JUL 5 59 LEICESTER UNION HOUSE SAINT MARGARET
NORTH SAMUEL 1890 FEB 4 5MTHS ALL SAINTS ROAD SAINT NICHOLAS
MEBBERSON JOSEPH 1915 APR 9 72 THE WORKHOUSE LEICESTER
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One qualm ---
If James Moulding was the son of James Wade, and James Wade became Benjamin Brown, and the family lived together until the 1861 census --
--wouldn't James have put his father's name down on his wedding certificate?
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Yes I agree - James Moulding not including a fathers name on his marriage to Emma Lee is a little perculiar although the facts, whilst circumstantial appear to add up to James Wade being the father - James being his first name (as father's?), there being a GRO reference for a birth of a James Wade in Dec Q 1841 and there being a baptism in 1846 of a James Moulding Wade.
I will look to get some certificates to see if that will sort it out...
In the meantime, it looks like i am still missing census returns for James Moulding from 1871, 1891 and 1901 (assuming the 1910 death is correct). Clearly he could be listed under a number of alias' - James Moulding (or variants such as Molding), James Wade and James Brown. I would like to find those if possible for completion.
Also in the potential 1881 census, James Moulding is living with a 'wife' Elizabeth and a daughter Florence. Is there a marriage associated with this (Moulding/Brown or Wade) and a registration for the daughters birth, or have they just shacked up? This may have finally pushed Emma over the edge to her subsequent bigamous marriage to William Dixon. From all the newspaper reports James was not a very nice person and the attack on Emma in 1873 was a particularly nasty case of domestic violence and she was probably pregnant at the time with the first Ellen Moulding.
Many thanks for your continuing help.
TB
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How about this one in 1891
James Brown, age 46, married, boarder, bricklayer, from Leicester, lodging with the Harvey family in Harrow, Middlesex
RG12; Piece 1040; Folio 39; Page 36
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That looks possible - but anything is plausible with this family.
Thanks
TB
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By the way, there are a couple of possible baptisms for our friend James Wade:
WADE JOSEPH & JANE 1821 25-Dec ST MARGARET'S JAMES
WADE WILLIAM & SARAH 1820 19-Jan ST MARY'S JAMES
I can't see any possible baptisms for Benjamin Brown but the censuses do suggest he was born in Wigston so I wouldn't expect him to be baptised in the city centre (my CD just covers the Leicester churches, not the suburban or county churches).
Perhaps someone else with have Wigston records to hand.