RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Elaine Flynn on Thursday 13 November 14 16:57 GMT (UK)
-
A year or so ago, on one of the many Gen boards I frequent, a generous soul provided me with a wealth of info from the 1841 Wales census (and perhaps others). Of course Fate then crashed my computer and failed my backup discs, and I cannot locate where I'd been or who I've talked to . . . I'm back to banging my head against the same brick wall, ISO two different William Williams from Wales.
1st....... William Williams was married to a Maria Thomas b. 1809. Their children were: William b. 1832, Thomas b. 1836, Elizabeth b. 1837, Mary "Polly" b. 1840, Martha b. 1842, Maria b. 1845, James b. 1847, and John b. 1849. Young Martha later married John Fry b. 1825 in Wales, the son of Samuel Fry b. 1796 d. 1870 and a Mary b. 1798. I believe they're listed alongside the Williams family in the census for 1841 in Monmouthshire. Parish of Llanvihangel, Llantarnam.
2nd....... William Williams b. abt. 1804 in Wales. Married an unknown, father to John Williams b. Jan 1845 in Wales. I do have a notation that leads me to believe this branch was found in the 1851 census for Carmarthenshire. John married an Annie b. 1850 in Germany and it's possible they married and had a child in Wales before moving to America, Thomas H. b. 31 Jan 1869 (possibly on 1871 Wales census?). The family is listed on US census for Highland, Clay, Kansas by 1880.
I have to wonder if the two William Williams connect back to each other, or perhaps are even one in the same? I recall that in the 1841 census only, ages were rounded to the nearest 5th year. Any help here would be appreciated greatly - and written in ink by hand from now on, haha! Thanks!
-
Welcome to Rootschat! ;D
I can see the Fry family in 1841 & 1851, but there isn't a Williams family next door
1841 Garnwen, Llanvihangel Llantarnam HO107/749/15 folio 10 pg 11
Samuel Fry 35 butcher
Mary 30
George 13
John 10
Elizabeth 8
Thomas 6
Samuel & Mary not born in county, others born in county
1851 Mountain House, Lantarnam HO107/2453 folio 251 pg 22
Samuel Fry head mar 55 farmer of 10 acres b. Summersetshire
Mary wife 53 b. Summersetshire
John son 25 miner b. Monmouthshire
Elizabeth dau 23 b. Monmouthshire
Thomas son 19 miner b. Monmouthshire
William Tuvy lodger 21 miner b. Glostershire
Possible for John son of William in 1851
Pentwyn, Myddfai, Carmarthenshire HO107/2470 folio 266 pg 9
William Williams head mar 47 farmer 55 acres b. Cayo
Margaret wife 36
Eleanor dau 10
David son 8
John son 6
Mary dau 3
Morgun son 3 m
all born Myddfai except William.
There are 2 Johns born Myddfai on the census so not possible to know if this one is your man without a marriage certificate for the one still in Wales in later years to check father's name.
I haven't spotted the other Williams family as yet.
:-\
-
I'm wondering if your Williams family for Martha, wife of john Fry is correct, as she's shown on later censuses consistently b c1837 (in Cirencester)
indeed, why do you think he married a Martha Williams? John Fry and wife are in Aberdare on 1871, with oldest child aged 8. There is a marriage in Merthyr Tydfil district (which covers Aberdare) in 1862 (Q1, vol 11a p357) involving a John and a Martha Hall. I can see a Martha Hall who fits the bill perefectly for age and place of birth on earlier censuses
-
Also John who marries Martha is b c1841 - so not the one in Llantarnam. Martha's husband was b Cossington, Somerset (appears to be son of William and Hannah) and is in Aberdare in 1861.
I think we need to go back to basics - is it this John and Martha you are interested in, or a Martha Williams?
-
Welcome to Rootschat! ;D
I can see the Fry family in 1841 & 1851, but there isn't a Williams family next door
1841 Garnwen, Llanvihangel Llantarnam HO107/749/15 folio 10 pg 11
Samuel Fry 35 butcher
Mary 30
George 13
John 10
Elizabeth 8
Thomas 6
Samuel & Mary not born in county, others born in county
1851 Mountain House, Lantarnam HO107/2453 folio 251 pg 22
Samuel Fry head mar 55 farmer of 10 acres b. Summersetshire
Mary wife 53 b. Summersetshire
John son 25 miner b. Monmouthshire
Elizabeth dau 23 b. Monmouthshire
Thomas son 19 miner b. Monmouthshire
William Tuvy lodger 21 miner b. Glostershire
Thank you!!! Yes, this is them! By 1860 the family is listed as FRYE in the US census for Reilly, Schuylkill, PA. By 1870 Samuel was living with his granddaughter Elizabeth and her husband William Toney (Torrey) in Branch Dale, Schuylkill County, PA. John Fry(e) is listed on the 1870 census for Williams, Dauphin County, PA and died a year later, 12 Nov 1871. Huzzah! ;D
-
I'm wondering if your Williams family for Martha, wife of john Fry is correct, as she's shown on later censuses consistently b c1837 (in Cirencester)
indeed, why do you think he married a Martha Williams? John Fry and wife are in Aberdare on 1871, with oldest child aged 8. There is a marriage in Merthyr Tydfil district (which covers Aberdare) in 1862 (Q1, vol 11a p357) involving a John and a Martha Hall. I can see a Martha Hall who fits the bill perefectly for age and place of birth on earlier censuses
By 1860 my Fry family had come to America and were living in Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania. Martha lived until 1931. Her parents were William Williams b. 2 Dec 1803 Wales d. 2 Dec 1883 Williamstown PA. and his wife Maria Thomas b. 1809 Wales d. 28 Dec 1857 Lewellyn PA. In the 1850 & 1870 censuses for Schuylkill, PA, this William Williams is listed as having been born in Cayo, Carmarthenshire, Wales.
-
Also John who marries Martha is b c1841 - so not the one in Llantarnam. Martha's husband was b Cossington, Somerset (appears to be son of William and Hannah) and is in Aberdare in 1861.
I think we need to go back to basics - is it this John and Martha you are interested in, or a Martha Williams?
Perhaps it's another branch of the Fry(e) family that also married into a Williams family . . . they're everywhere! Finding their locations in Wales to begin was a HUGE break for me . . . thank you both so much for helping me recover my lost treasure! Now to continue on backwards down the line . . . Samuel & Mary "not born in county, others born in county" - one wall falls another goes up!
I found a notation that the other William Williams b. 1804 Wales was married to an Annie b 1810, their son being John Williams b. Jan 1845 in Wales (according to 1880 US census) who also married an Annie b. Jan 1850 in Germany. They had a tassel of children, the first being born in 1869, John, and the last being my great-grandfather Fred William Williams b Nov 1893. In 1880 the family is in Highland, Clay Kansas and the father William Williams is also listed with them as a laborer, he was 76 at the time. By 1920 the elderly John & Annie Williams were living with their daughter Olive and her husband William Boone in Porter, Schuylkill PA.
-
the 1851 census I gave you gives the place of birth for Samuel & Mary as Somerset.
;)
-
Chalk me up as blind too, I read that as countRy... not county. Lol! Now it all makes sense. ;D
-
Just on the off chance in your 2nd post you state that the 1870 census for PA shows Samuel Fry was living with his granddaughter Elizabeth and her husband William Toney (Torrey). If you had meant living with his daughter Elizabeth and her husband it just struck me that the 21 year old William Tuvy who was a lodger (miner) in 1851 would be a very good candidate for a mistranscribed William Toney (Torrey) if the 1870 census shows his birthplace as England?
The similarity just struck me as I was reading through the thread.
Pheno
-
Just on the off chance in your 2nd post you state that the 1870 census for PA shows Samuel Fry was living with his granddaughter Elizabeth and her husband William Toney (Torrey). If you had meant living with his daughter Elizabeth and her husband it just struck me that the 21 year old William Tuvy who was a lodger (miner) in 1851 would be a very good candidate for a mistranscribed William Toney (Torrey) if the 1870 census shows his birthplace as England?
The similarity just struck me as I was reading through the thread.
Pheno
As it turns out I did mean daughter... bad morning for typing it seems lol. And you are probably correct, dates match and location match ... William Toney/Torrey 40 b. Eng 1830 . . . !!!! :o ;D
-
Thank you all again, so very helpful!
osprey, you provided exactly what I needed to track down some original posts elsewhere . . . can't thank you enough!
Pheno . . . in the original posts I found elsewhere, whoever did the transcribing had the tenant as William LEWY . . . but I tend to agree with osprey's interpretation Turvey, and the Toney/Torrey connection you made. I never would have made that going off of Lewy. Much appreciated!
Fresh eyes can make a world of difference . . . !
-
Glad to have been of help.
Pheno