RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Elizajb on Tuesday 18 November 14 02:39 GMT (UK)
-
Hi All,
I have a wee problem I would appreciate any ideas on.
I am looking for a death for a James Greenlees who was last recorded, that I know of, in Seddon St, Aramaho, Wanganui in the 1905-1906 electoral rolls. In this roll, he is with his wife Emily, but after this date I cannot find any record of him.
He was born in Scotland about 1854 and emigrated to New Zealand about 1878 with his wife and two children James and Janet. They settled in Wanganui and are fairly easily traceable in this area thereafter. However, after 1905/1906, Emily is living with her children in Wanganui but James is not recorded with them. I have found the couple did not get on well, but Emily states she is married in the two rolls she shows in after 1906, but no James.
Emily died in 1915 and her death printout gives her as 'married', so I am assuming that James must still be alive. However two of their sons died in WW1 and one of the records (for Alexander, 1917) states he was the son of Emily and the late James Greenlees. The New Zealand death index has no death at all for anyone who could be the James in question and neither does the NZ burial locator. I very much doubt if he would have left the country and cannot find any clue to his whereabouts after 1905/6.
Any lateral thinking by chatters would be much appreciated as I am a bit stumped.
Regards,
Eliza.
-
A James Greenlees died in Australia in 1913; unfortunately, as my Ancestry sub has expired, I can't see where, or what his parents names were.
-
James Greenlees died 9 July 1913 in Queensland
Father William Greenlees, Mother Ellen Cowan
Registration number 004650
Page 9988
Three public trees on ancestry have him born in Queensland 1888.
-
James Greenlees died 9 July 1913 in Queensland
Father William Greenlees, Mother Ellen Cowan
Registration number 004650
Page 9988
Three public trees on ancestry have him born in Queensland 1888.
Yes, a memorial notice in the Townsville Daily Bulletin in 1914 (on Trove) is placed by his "sorrowing parents, brothers and sisters" - so seems unlikely to be a match for Elizajb's James Greenlees.
-
I notice on the NZ immigration 03 Jan 1879
James Greenlees was from Renfrewshire 23yrs Farm Labourer (b 1856)
Emily is Emily Margaret Greenlees 24yrs
Janet 1 1/2
James (Infant)
Alexander Pollock 17 years
Was the boat called the Fernglen, entering Westland.
At least you can get Emily's death printout and that will get you her maiden name.
(He could be recorded with a churchyard but not on bdm, like my grgrandmother in NZ and have no headstone)
-
Hi Eliza
I don't have any news of a death for James GREENLEES senior, but I did wonder if the James GREENLEES appearing on the 1905-06 Wanganui electoral roll, might in fact have been James junior ?? [I note that he married in 1906 so may have still been residing with his mother ? ]
I'm a little curious about the following item which appeared in the "Wanganui Chronicle" - 17 October 1903 - Local and General :
... [fined for] failing to send (their) children to school regularly ... Emily GREENLEES ... [amongst other names].
That to me suggests that Emily was probably the head of the household at that time, and responsible for the children. [So James senior may well have left sometime earlier ? ]
~ Lu
-
Eliza ... you probably have already seen the death and Bereavement thank-you notices for Emily GREENLEES > "Wanganui Chronicle" - 14 and 17 August 1915. The death notice doesn't acknowledge "a husband" ... and the thanks notice is worded from "the relatives of".
Both the sons who died at war enlisted after Emily's death (naming as their next-of-kin a brother-in-law and a brother) ... so it would seem that their father James wasn't in their lives at that time ?
[Alexander GREENLEES' will dated 18 November 1915, only mentions his 3 brothers and two sisters. ]
I wouldn't be too concerned that the word "married" shows on Emily's death printout, nor that she appears as "married woman" on electoral rolls up until her death. If say she was a deserted wife, then it wasn't altogether unusual to keep up the pretense of still being married (and the informant to her death may only have guessed at her "status" ).
Australia of course is always the first place we look for anyone who "has gone missing" from NZ.
* Have you checked at all for James returning to Scotland / England ??
* Do you have marriage certs. for any of the children which might show their father as "deceased" ?
~ Lu
-
Just another Australian death (if James GREENLEES left NZ earlier than 1905-6) :
Unfortunately it doesn't have any parental information :
1903
James GREENLEES
Registered at : Barraba*, New South Wales
Regn. Number: 5207 / 1903
-
Hi Eliza
Do you have access to NZ school records ? [If not then someone on here may be able to assist with a look-up. ]
Might be worth looking for Wanganui school records for the GREENLEES children, prior to 1903 to see when/if, father James is listed as parent/guardian.
~ Lu
-
Hi,
These are the only ones for the Greenlees at Wanganui that are on my resources.
Bertie Greenlees attended Mosston School, Wanganui on the 30 Sept 1893, leaving on the 22 May 1899. Birth date recorded as 1887. Parent/Guardian Mr Greenlees.
Alexander Greenlees attended Mosston School, Wanganui, admitted on the 14 Sept 1893, left on the 22 May 1899. Birth date was recorded as 1887. Parent/Guardian Mr Greenlees. Address at that time was Mosston
James Greenlees, attended the Mosston School, Wanganui , admitted on the 23 Feb 1891, his last day was 3 Aug 1892. Parent/Guardian - Mr Greenlees. Address at that time was Mosston.
Mabel Greenlees attended Mosston School, Wanganui , admitted on the 18 Mar 1895, birth date as Dec 1889, left 22 May 1899. Parent/Guardian Mr James Greenlees. Address at that time was Mosston.
Emily Greenlees attended Mosston School, Wanganui, admitted on the 12 Oct 1896. Left on the 16 Jul 1897. Parent/Guardian was Mr James Greenlees. Address at that time was Beaconsfield.
Charles Greenlees attended Mosston School, Wanganui, admitted on 26 Jan 1898. Left on the 22 May 1899. Birth date is shown as 29 Jun 1891. Parent/Guardian Mr James Greenlees. Address at that time was Mosston.
Cheers
KHP
-
Hi Everyone,
First, I must apologise for my tardy reply - a family birthday interrupted my sleuthing!!
Thankyou all very much for your help, I knew that fresh eyes would unearth things I had not thought of myself.
Whiteout - the Fernglen immigration record you found is my man, I have quite a bit on his background and Emily's. He emigrated to New Zealand with Emily and two children shortly after the birth of son James. When I could not find his death on the NZ death index or the burial locator, I contacted the Wanganui council to see whether he had been buried with Emily at Aramaho and not recorded, but they got back to me to say that he was not buried in Wanganui as far as their records showed.
Thankyou Maddy, but the 1913 Australian death is not the James I am looking for. However, not to say he may not have gone to Australia, I just don't know. It does seem a possibility though with the lack of any sign of him in New Zealand death or burial records.
Lucy - you have dug up several things I had not. Firstly, on re-checking the 1905-1906 electoral roll, I can see it is very possible that the James Greenlees recorded at the same address as Emily was her son, not her husband. I had not thought of that, silly me! Son James did not marry till 1906 so quite likely.
I did see the article you mentioned about Emily failing to send children to school regularly, but had been searching PapersPast using the 'exact search' feature and entering Emily's name and had not found her death notice in the 1915 paper (thankyou). I still can't find the Bereavement Thankyou notice of a couple of days later, can you remember what page it was on?
My feeling, based on what I do know of the family, is that it is not too probable that James would have returned to Scotland (one can 'never say never' though) - he would be very unlikely to have had the money to do so, but I think Australia might be an option. I haven't yet obtained any of the marriage printouts for the children but may have to to look for clues. I had been assuming that because Emily listed herself as married in the electoral rolls (I realised by then that she was apart from James) and that her death cert described her as a 'wife', that James had probably died at some point between her death in 1915 and Alexander's death in 1917 in France (as he was recorded as the son of the late James Greenlees). However, it's clear from records available that James was not a good husband or father, so may have been just given as dead by his children once he was out of their lives. In addition, the fact that I had overlooked the fact that the 1905 roll may be referring to James the son, not James the father, means he could have died or emigrated to Australia at any time from about 1903.
The 1903 Australian death is worth investigating further as well Lu, so thankyou for that. From memory, last time I looked at buying an Australian cert, it was very expensive, but I'll have a dig around and see if I can find any further clue to who this might be. By the way, where did you find the info on Alexander's will, another bit I had missed!
Lastly (excuse my marathon message, but want to cover all clues given) - many thanks KiwiHalfPint for the school records. I did not have those, although I knew the children had gone to school in Mosstown, so that is a really good lot of info to add to my growing file.
This has all given me further ideas to follow up on, so sincere thanks for all the time and effort put in by the "sleuthers extraordinaire" of Rootschat. Not much gets past a lot of you, thank goodness.
Kind regards,
Eliza
-
Here is a link to Alexander's will
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-29794-5699-60?cc=1865481
Cheers Janette
-
and entering Emily's name and had not found her death notice in the 1915 paper (thankyou). I still can't find the Bereavement Thankyou notice of a couple of days later, can you remember what page it was on?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
... just use the "more search options" > select > "Wanganui Chronicle" + August and 1915 + Greenlees > both death, and thanks notice ( on p 7, column 7) will be returned.
~ Lu
-
Thankyou very much Janette and Lu, :)
Not only have you given me further information I did not have, but you have also taught me some new places and ways to look for things, which will come in very handy.
I have never used the Probate record set from Family Search before, which is a big oversight on my part and, neither had I used the more intensive search options on the old newspapers site so I'm very happy to have picked up some more tips.
The will was interesting in that it left out two of Alexander's brothers, William and Charles, both of whom were alive. There must have been some sort of family rift - I wonder whether that might have had anything to do with the missing James, perhaps some of the children kept contact with him. Just conjecture, no way of knowing.
Anyway, I now have some ideas to try and track down James (I don't actually need his death really, but do like to tie up ends when I can) so many thanks again to everyone and thanks for the pointers Janette and Lu.
Regards Eliza.
-
Eliza ... just also noting that Emily GREENLEES appeared on the 1900 Wises NZPO roll.
Wises NZPO roll - 1900
Wanganui
at Tay Street [in vicinity of Lowther and Russell Streets ]
GREENLEES - Mrs Emily
[Couldn't see a listing for James senr. in this particular year.]
Same roll for years 1903 / 1904 / 1907 / 1910 have a Jas. GREENLEES, labourer at Aramoho.
Emily is there in 1910 (Aramoho) and in 1913 she's (alone) at London Street, Aramoho.
[Note: Generally only the heads of households appeared on these early NZPO rolls. Often women would be listed if they were running a business (say, a store, boarding house, hotel, dressmaking/millinery ... etc. ). ]
It's important to note also, that info from electoral and other rolls, should be treated with caution. They don't always convey a totally accurate "picture" (PO rolls particularly were often not updated annually). They are best used in conjunction with other information gathered.
~ Lu
-
Hi Lu,
Thanks very much for all your efforts again. I have just spent a wee while painstakingly 'pinning together' the electoral rolls and Wises for Emily and for James to see whether I can work out whether the James listed is James Snr, James Jnr or a mix of both. The upshot of which is that I'm not sure, but leaning towards it probably being James Jnr.
Emily is definitely with her husband in 1896 as James Jnr would have been too young to be on the roll then, but her 1900 roll gives exactly the same info for James as for 1896, so James Jnr might have had his first recording.
James Jnr married in 1906, so maybe I should get his marriage printout to check for any address in case it should tie in with one of Emily's addresses. In addition, maybe it will say whether his father is alive or dead. If James snr was still around I would have expected to see a double up of the names in the rolls but I don't really.
Very inconvenient that they named a son James as well!
Regards Eliza.
-
Well, that was fast!!
I ordered the marriage printout for James Jnr last night and it has just arrived. Extremely prompt.
Anyway, James and his bride Maud Mary Wadman married in Wellington in 1906. Their 'present address' was given as Wellington, but their 'usual address' was given as Wanganui. No clue why they would have been in Wellington. They married at the registrar's office with clerks signing as witnesses.
There is no note of any of the parents being deceased and on checking, I know that both of Maud's parents were still alive at the time and so was James' mother Emily. So - do I assume that James snr is alive as well? Did marriages commonly record if any of the parents had passed away?
Tricky!
Regards Eliza.
-
Hi Eliza ... (had been going to mention it earlier ;D ) ... but unlike say UK certificates, it didn't seem to be common practice here in NZ for parents' to be shown as "deceased" on NZ marriage records.
(It probably wasn't a question that was asked ? )
[It's something that has arisen in queries before in this forum > others have been puzzled by having confirmation of a death of a parent, and yet a child's marriage some time after the death (of the parent) doesn't reflect (record), that the parent is deceased. Some brides and grooms would seem to have volunteered that information and the clergyman or registrar may (or may not) have seen fit to enter it on the official record. ]
~ Lu
-
Eliza ... did any of the GREENLEES children, marry as "minors" (under the age of 21) ?
Were any of the marriages after say, 1900 ?
The Intention to Marry notice (ITM) would record the name of the person who gave consent for a minor (usually a parent).
~ Lu
-
OK, so not much can be gleaned from the marriage.
However, have been sitting here (should not be, as jobs call) turning myself inside out thinking of ways to dig up something and have been checking up on the other children and their marriages, where they seem to have them. I think I have found a clue, maybe.
The only marriage I could not pin down was that of David Greenlees who appeared to have a wife named Emily Caroline from 1919 onwards. No record of this marriage exists on the NZ index and they could just be living together, but a search of marriages (anywhere) of a David Greenlees to an Emily Caroline 'anyone' came up with a 1911 marriage in Victoria between Carol Emily Trewin and David Greenlees.
Close but not close enough, so I searched for anything on 'Emily Caroline Trewin' and found that on a couple of public trees she is recorded as having married David Greenlees in Victoria and the trees record her name as 'Emily Caroline Trewin' not Carol Emily Trewin.
The trees have very little info but one very useful piece. David (wrong birth date and no parents) is recorded as having been born in Wanganui, New Zealand. The trees do not record that David and Emily returned to New Zealand, or their deaths etc, so almost no info but the Wanganui info makes it seem very very likely that this is the David I want and that there is therefore a possibility that his father might have gone to Australia.
I will have a look at the possibility of the 'minor' marriages (your message has just appeared) this afternoon, have to head out soon for a bit. Where does one find the Intention to Marry records?
That's another good thought.
Regards Eliza.
-
Hi Eliza ... Intention to Marry notices (c.k.a. "ITM's") are housed at Archives NZ's Wellington office.
Often RootsChatters are visiting there and can do look-ups of the records.
-
NZ Electoral :
1919 - Taranaki _ Patea
GREENLEES - David - slaughterman
GREENLEES - Emily* - married ... both at Norfolk Street, Patea.
[* Emily is indexed as "Emily Caroline" in later e/rolls. ]
-
Hi Eliza
Some of the BD and M indexes (epecially for Australia) often show people's names, as well as place names/registration districts, in abbreviated form. [e.g. Carol - although there's no full-stop, it's an abbrev. of "Caroline". ]
Here's her birth :
Victoria - Australia - BIRTHS
1878
Emily Caroline TREWIN
Place of Birth : Be Na, VIC [Be Na possibly an abbreviation, haven't checked it yet. ]
Father : John TREWIN
Mother : Caroline COOPER
Regn. Date: 1878
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 13585
-
NZ Deaths :
Burials at Waitara Cemetery, Taranaki.
Emily Caroline GREENLEES - 89 years [bc 1879 ]
died - 5 May 1968
David GREENLEES - died 25 June 1966 ... buried in an adjoining plot.
http://www.newplymouthnz.com/CouncilAtoZ/CemeteriesAndCrematorium/CemeterySearch.htm
-
Just an aside ... the birthplace of Emily Caroline TREWIN, given as Be Na, is probably an abbreviation for "Benalla" (VIC).
[The rather nice obituary for her mother > Caroline TREWIN > can be read
at http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
"Benalla Standard" - 5 January 1906 - page 4 ]
-
Hi Lu,
Thanks a bunch for all the additional info, what a nice obit, I'd be happy if mine was like that!
With regard to the marriages and whether any of the Greenlees children were minors at the time, I have just had a good look over them and none were. All were married from 1902 onwards, with Charles being the last to marry in 1920.
However, not to give up without a fight, I then had a look at the spouses of the Greenlees clan and although most of them were also of age, William's wife, Florence Murphy may not have been. I am not quite sure which Florence Murphy she is in the birth index (if any), but there were two who had no middle name and both of them were born in 1889.
Florence and William married in 1906 (April 16), so this would make Florence only about 17 at the time of her marriage, assuming that she is one of the two births I found. So, would that mean they may show in the intention to marry records?
Regards Eliza.
-
Hi Eliza, for your records-
Marraige
TREWIN Emily Carol Birth Place GOORAMBAT
To David GREENLEES Birth Place WANGANUI
Year 1911
Reg. 8446
Between 1871 and 1891 John TREWIN and Caroline COOPER had 9 children in the Winchelsea, Benalla and Devenish regions of Victoria. More information about them is available but may not be really relevant.
Sue
-
Thanks Sue,
I did have a bit of a nosey parker on the family after reading the lovely obit for Caroline, I wonder if Emily ever saw her family again. She and David seemed to be living in New Zealand from 1919 onwards.
I wonder how long they knew each other before the marriage as David was recorded in the NZ electoral rolls in 1911, the same year he married Emily.
I'm trying to track down the age of the James Greenlees who died in Barraba, New South Wales in 1903 that Lu mentioned in an earlier post. I don't mind getting the death record but would prefer to try and pin the age down first, in case it's a child or someone who could not be within cooee of the age. I emailed the Tamworth Historical Society last night to see whether they have a burial index which may give any info at all about this person which would help me.
I don't know if they do replies to queries for information without it being a paid research request, but hopefully someone will reply.
I did have a look at how to get a certificate or transcript for New South Wales records, but on working through the process for the transcript, a note beside the 1903 record said 'no PDF available', so I may not be able to get the cheaper family history transcript in this case. If I can get info which says the James Greenlees in question was close in age to the one I'm looking for, then I'll probably get the certificate.
I'm certainly learning some new things and being reminded of those I've overlooked by discussing the problem on rootschat. It's very helpful.
Regards Eliza.
-
Thanks Sue,
I'm trying to track down the age of the James Greenlees who died in Barraba, New South Wales in 1903 that Lu mentioned in an earlier post. I don't mind getting the death record but would prefer to try and pin the age down first, in case it's a child or someone who could not be within cooee of the age. I emailed the Tamworth Historical Society last night to see whether they have a burial index which may give any info at all about this person which would help me.
I don't know if they do replies to queries for information without it being a paid research request, but hopefully someone will reply.
I did have a look at how to get a certificate or transcript for New South Wales records, but on
working through the process for the transcript, a note beside the 1903 record said 'no PDF available', so I may not be able to get the cheaper family history transcript in this case. If I can get info which says the James Greenlees in question was close in age to the one I'm looking for, then I'll probably get the certificate.
I'm certainly learning some new things and being reminded of those I've overlooked by discussing the problem on rootschat. It's very helpful.
Regards Eliza.
Hi Eliza,
The "no pdf available" is of no consequence. A transcription of the death certificate is identical in every way to the original certificate and is a complete copy. It cannot be used for legal purposes, but is perfectly adequate for family research and is a good deal cheaper. It will reveal all that was on the original and is the only way for you to learn more of this chap.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
Scroll down.
However, I suspect it may not contain all you hope for. The certification is completed by an informant to the registrar. It may be a friend, relative or the staff at an institution or others. If the informant had no knowledge of the deceased person’s life and history, the certificate will have many “not known” entries.
The fact that the index entry is so scant, suggests to me little or nothing was known of James GREENLEES. It may offer an estimation of his age and his last known address, cause of death and place of death.
Having said all that, it will be the only way to eliminate (or otherwise) this James from your searches. ;D
Sue
-
Hi Sue,
I have decided to take a punt and order the transcription for the 1903 death. I think what I'm hoping for is, that if this should be the James Greenlees I'm after, that there will at least be some clue, the words 'New Zealand' for example.
I imagine that that would be the best I could hope for if he did indeed leave New Zealand for Australia from around 1900-1903.
In addition, I'm hoping that if it isn't him, that there will be enough info on the transcript to be able to work that out - age, background or some other identifying fact.
I have no idea how long it will take to receive the transcript, but would imagine it could be at least a couple of weeks. I may yet hear from the Tamworth people, but aren't holding my breath. I found cemetery transcriptions for the Barraba area but there was none for a James Greenlees so could not trace it that way.
I'll report back if I hear anything and continue to search for other sightings of him in any other records of the time.
Regards Eliza.
-
Florence and William married in 1906 (April 16), so this would make Florence only about 17 at the time of her marriage, .... So, would that mean they may show in the intention to marry records?
[Missed replying to this earlier. ]
Yes, there'll be an ITM record ... and provided that Florence is a minor at time of marriage, then the notice should include a note of the person giving permission for her to wed.
If you need an ITM look-up, then you'll need to supply "place of marriage" (city/town) and "the date" (month/ or quarter). [ITM's are only indexed up to 1881. ] ;)
~ Lu
-
.... had a look at the spouses of the Greenlees clan and although most of them were also of age, William's wife, Florence Murphy may not have been. I am not quite sure which Florence Murphy she is in the birth index (if any), but there were two who had no middle name and both of them were born in 1889.
... just another aside ... this may help in eliminating one of the Florence's ?
Found on an online tree, a marriage cert. for >
Florence MURPHY (said to have been born on 22 April 1889) - the d/o Thomas Patrick MURPHY and Kate Costello -- married at Kaiapoi, Canterbury 7 July 1910, to Ralph DARNILL [DARMILL shown on NZSG marriage resource ]. Marriage dissolved - Decree Absolute - 5 September 1941.
NZBDM is currently out of action so can't check any further at this stage.
~ Lu
-
Is this Florence Murphy's (Mrs W.Greenlee of Wanganui) mother a Mary Ann Murphy?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19290207.2.148&srpos=2&e=-------10--1----0death+James+Greenlee--
That should help narrow down which Florence Murphy you were looking for
-
NZ Birth :
1888/16626 - MURPHY - Florence -- date of birth* - 25 June 1888
Parents: Mary Ann and James Joseph.
[* d.o.b. deduced from NZ BDM online registration listing. ]
~ Lu
-
Great sleuthing Lu and Whiteout,
The two 1889 births for Florence Murphy weren't the right ones after all, so a good bit of deduction on your parts, thankyou. Lu, should I post a separate topic to ask for a look up of the intention to marry records and if I do, is that record likely to give any information on William's father James, ie) whether alive or dead?
How long prior to a marriage would the ITM forms have been completed? Or do I just give the date of the marriage?
I have just heard back from the Tamworth people but they cannot help with the record of the 1903 death, they have no info on it and suggest I get in touch with the local Historical Society in Barraba. However they have no email address, only snail mail, so I think I might wait for the arrival of the death transcript, which I have now ordered, before contacting them in case it is not necessary.
If it is not him in the end, I'm a bit stumped for where to look next, but I'll worry about that after I've seen the death record.
Regards Eliza.
-
Lu, should I post a separate topic to ask for a look up of the intention to marry records and if I do, is that record likely to give any information on William's father James, ie) whether alive or dead?
How long prior to a marriage would the ITM forms have been completed? Or do I just give the date of the marriage?
Hi Eliza, just briefly >
Yes ... separate topic (new thread) needed for an ITM look-up.
No ...it won't have parents names (unless one party is a minor and a parent is giving permission to wed).
Please be aware that ITM's are not substitutes for marriage certificates. You can read more about the information they contain, at the following link (NZ Resources - LINKS : Archives, Libraries, etc.) >
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=494517.0
~ Lu
-
continued ... ITM look-up request :
As mentioned previously, ITM's are only indexed to 1881. Thereafter you need to supply the date or quarter in which the marriage occurred ... PLUS, where the marriage took place.
The NZ Marriage Index (in microfiche format) does not though allow us, (as it does with births and deaths), to determine "where the event was registered". So in the case of marriages we need to have at least some knowledge of where they likely took place.
Can tell you that the GREENLEES - MURPHY marriage took place on 16 April 1906 (deduced from NZ BDM online Marriage Index).
I'm guessing that the marriage was at Wanganui ?
[Florence MURPHY's father was buried there in 1903 and again, guessing ... her mother remained there for some years before moving to Auckland.
Additionally, one of Florence's sisters (Stella) married at Wanganui in 1899. ]
~ Lu
-
Hi Lu,
Thankyou very much for all the extra information. I was just about to post a lookup request, but was reading the info about it at the beginning of the New Zealand board and noted the advice on asking for lookups if in a brick wall situation etc (which I am at this point with James Greenlees) and if the info is crucial.
I was wondering, as William was of age at the time of his marriage, and so his parents probably not mentioned in the ITM, do you think it will it still be ok to check? I have never seen an ITM so don't really know what other info it might provide, but am hoping there is an outside chance of a further clue to my search.
Many thanks for your advice.
Regards Eliza.
-
This is the information for ITM's that Spades has posted
Information provided in ITM returns:
•The date on which the notice was registered.
•The full name, marital status, calling or profession and age of both parties.
•The dwelling place of both parties.
•Length of residence in registration district.
•The place where the marriage was to be solemnized.
•The name and relationship of the person giving consent in the case of a minor (individual under 21 years).
•The date of the marriage certificate.
•The name of the officiating minister or registrar.
Example of an Intention to Marry Notice:
Intention to Marry Index BDM 20/10 1865 East Taieri. p. 457/#76.
Gavin Murdoch, bachelor, a miner aged 27 years living at Chain Hills (length of residence 5 days) intends to marry Catherine Murdoch, a spinster aged 20 years living at Glenhead (length of residence 8 months) at the house of John Murdoch, Glenhead, East Taieri. Date of certificate 4th August 1865. Person giving Consent in the Case of a Minor: John Murdoch, father. Minister: Rev. William Will.
Cheers Janette
-
Great thankyou Janette,
That is very informative - and the info collected makes me think that probably I will not be able to gain anything new by seeing it, as only Florence was under age.
Very useful record to know about though, I can think of one or two other instances where that might yet come in handy.
However, I'm picking up quite a few tips along the way on this search, learning something new or something different to think about every day. Many heads are definitely better than one.
Regards Eliza
-
Please be aware that ITM's are not substitutes for marriage certificates. You can read more about the information they contain, at the following link (NZ Resources - LINKS : Archives, Libraries, etc.) >
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=494517.0
~ Lu
Eliza ... the information added by janette is exactly the same as the link I'd posted for you in reply # 35. (Just in case there's confusion ? ) ;)
-
I think I need a "Nana nap" Lu - you are quite right :).
I recognised the Gavin Murdoch bit while I was reading it, but my foggy brain (2 hours sleep last night, please excuse) did not put two and two together till you reminded me.
Your input is both read and appreciated so please overlook my fog! Not confused, just sleepless.
Regards Eliza.
-
:)
-
A further note.
Hoping to find some clue, I have just obtained a copy of the original image of the marriage of David Greenlees and Emily Trewin (1911) in Victoria.
Unfortunately, although it names David's parents, it doesn't give any information as to whether either was dead or alive at the time. The only extra piece of info it gives on James Greenlees is that he was an 'engine cleaner'.
There was no clue either from the witnesses as none of David's family signed, if any were there. The marriage took place in Elsternwick and it was interesting to see that Emily was four years older than David, at 32. He gave his usual address as Wanganui, New Zealand so it would seem that perhaps the intention was to return there - as they did.
What might have taken David to Victoria, I have no clue, but it is possible that it may be linked somehow to his father.
Regards Eliza.
-
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/ only has 2 James Greenlees that died about the right time in Victoria might be worth the 99c punt.
-
Thanks for that Whiteout,
I've had a look but none are my man. Worth a look though.
Regards Eliza.
-
Hi All,
I have just received the transcription of the 1903 death in Barraba of a James Greenlees.
Sadly it is not the James I am after, the person was too old and had been in NSW for many years.
Darn - back to the 'drawing board'.
Eliza.
-
Oh Dear :(
Disappointing for you.
Perhaps he changed his name to conceal his desertion of wife and family and then just melted away.
Sue
-
Yes possibly. He's a rather elusive fellow. It doesn't seem that he stayed in the Wanganui area as he would be known well there, so if he died there, there would be a record somewhere.
I checked Scotland's deaths, just in case, but no matches.
Perhaps he fell in the river and disappeared, stranger things have happened.
Eliza.
-
Hi All,
This is just an update to topic to say that I am no further forward, no news I'm afraid.
Eliza.
-
Hi Eliza,
I have just found your post from a few years ago regarding James Greenlees. I'm a direct descendent of James as he's my 3rd great grandfather. From what the family have told me James was a troublemaker and Emily his wife kicked him out because he was an abusive husband. You should find in Papers Past an article based in the Wanganui Paper proving this. The article describes that he threw Emily down the steps outside of their home and poured petrol over her and threatened to set her on fire. I will find the article link for you if you wish and post on here. After this event his children never spoke to him as he was never to return home however according to my grandmother he turned up while Emily was on her deathbed and she told him to get lost type of thing. But after this he just vanished and from what I can gather there's no record of him anywhere in NZ after Emily died. I have checked all the records in Australia and Scotland and have found nothing. However, my grandmother mentioned to me to check psychiatric hospitals because he had become in that state of mind after Emily died. The nearest to Wanganui at that time was Lake Alice Hospital near Marton as there is possibility he could have been admitted and possibly died there. They also have a cemetery there which is not registered officially and his death may have not been recorded at the time if he was a patient at the hospital. His daughter Janet (my 2nd great grandmother) also didn't have a sound mind either as its known she rode her horse down Victoria Avenue in Wanganui in a state many many times. So I'm wondering if there is a connection here with James state of mind. Not sure if you want to check it out but I will be going to Lake Alice to check out the cemetery as I'm also struggling to find James and if I find anything I will let you know.
Regards
Toni
-
Hi Eliza,
Here's the link from Papers Past regarding James Greenlees and his domestic abuse towards his wife.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WH18960908.2.21.12?query=James Greenlees
Regards
Toni
-
Hi Toni,
Thankyou, yes I saw that, I was sad to read some time ago that he was not a good husband or father.
It's good to hear your family info, especially since it is clear from what your grandmother said that James was alive right up until the death of his wife in 1915. I'm pretty sure that I have seen him referred to as the 'late' James Greenlees in the WW1 death notices for his sons but whether that was because his children 'wrote him off' as dead after the death of their mother, I have no way of knowing.
Was Lake Alice open in those days?
However, many thanks for your inside info, it adds a bit more in terms of background and last sightings of him. I'll be keen to know whether you have any luck with the institution avenue. I had run out of new leads, but continue to have a go at him from time to time to see if I can make any progress.
If you reply again to this topic, I will then be able to send you a personal message (you need to post 3 messages). Many thanks again.
Regards Eliza.
-
Hello Eliza,
Link to the history of Lake Alice Hospital..........
http://www.lakealicehospital.com/history.html
Minniehaha.
-
Great, thanks Minniehaha, that's a pretty comprehensive info site, very informative.
I wonder if there were any other possible institutions he could have been admitted to between say 1915 and 1940-ish.
Regards Eliza.
-
This does not help find James Greenlees, but a snippet about three of his sons……
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WH19170616.2.33.6?query=james%20greenlees
Minniehaha.
-
Thanks very much Minniehaha,
The family seem to have had a rough time for many years, with one thing and another.
Perhaps there is some small mercy in Emily being spared the grief of the deaths of her sons.
Who needs fiction!!
Regards Eliza.