RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: lefayre palmer on Friday 21 November 14 20:53 GMT (UK)
-
I have been trying to find my Henry Monkton Herbert's lineage for over 6 years. Recently I discovered that there is a Monkton Priory in Pembrokshire and wonder if he may have come from there or been baptised there.
Lately it has been discovered that my Barlow family in Ireland who are said to have come from Slebech Pemrokshire and lived on a property in Wexford next to the le Hunte family are connected in Pembokeshire. Hopefully my Herberts come into this picture.
Henry Monkton Herbert married Jane Barlow. Marriage licence Dublin 1804.
Hopefully someone is able to make sense of this and point me further in my search. I would be so grateful.
Lefayre Palmer.
-
This is nothing to do with possible Pembrokeshire connections but I have found an adult baptism for Henry's son Thomas William Herbert at St Jude Bethnal Green on December 24th 1848. It gives a date of birth of 27th March 1815 and says that his father Henry Moncton Herbert was a captain in the army. The Rev Thomas William Herbert was chaplain at Borough Prison in Devonport in the early 1850's so was presumably ordained circa 1848-50.
-
This is nothing to do with possible Pembrokeshire connections but I have found an adult baptism for Henry's son Thomas William Herbert at St Jude Bethnal Green on December 24th 1848. It gives a date of birth of 27th March 1815 and says that his father Henry Moncton Herbert was a captain in the army. The Rev Thomas William Herbert was chaplain at Borough Prison in Devonport in the early 1850's so was presumably ordained circa 1848-50.
As Henry was an officer in the army the London Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk/ would be a good place to look for his regiment and promotions. There may be surviving military records which give a clue as to Henry's origins.
Good hunting!
Philip
-
I don't see any Henry Herberts in the army lists for 1797 or 1806.
There's a Captain Henry Monckton in 24th Dragoons in the 1797 list. He's a Major on the "Irish Half-Pay" list in 1806. (It's not him - he becomes a General in later life and dies in 1854).
-
I don't see any Henry Herberts in the army lists for 1797 or 1806.
There's a Captain Henry Monckton in 24th Dragoons in the 1797 list. He's a Major on the "Irish Half-Pay" list in 1806. (It's not him - he becomes a General in later life and dies in 1854).
I have been looking for Henry, but can't see him yet. As he was described as an army captain at his son's adult baptism in 1848 is it possible that he had not yet joined the army when Thomas W was born in 1815, or that he was in a part-time militia?
-
Looking at various online threads and trees, he was an army officer when son Henry Arthur was born in Glasgow (Gorbals) in 1808. Could be militia
-
Thank you so much Shaunj and Phillipsearching. I had no idea about Thomas William Herbert's adult baptism and now wonder why. He was born in Ireland, his birth date 1815 .given on the baptism is also new to me, we had his birth date as circa 1819 assumed from his age given on his death certificate. I have quite a bit of information on him gleaned from newspapers courtesy of a lady in Dublin. My main aim however is to discover the ancestry of Henry Monkton Herbert. I notice my first listing says I have been looking for him for over 6 years it is actually 60 years. I have had great success on my own and my husband's lines over that time but Henry Monkton Herbert has chosen to lead me a merry dance. Over the years army lists have been explored to no avail and the idea of militia does seem a possibility. As the family and the Barlow family into which Henry Monkton Herbert married lived in Wexford and Arklow around a very troublesome time I expect they would have been involved.
Thank you both so very much you have opened my eyes to new avenues of thought.
Lefayre
-
I know that in another forum you have contemplated the possibility that Henry was illegitimate,related to the Earls of Pembroke.Given that the 10th Earl,Henry Herbert(1734-1794) was known for this,and that his legitimate son 11th Earl,was a George Augustus(1759-1827),also"Lord" as per your family tradition-could the 10th Earl be a candidate father?
If the Mercers Hospital record for 1844 is HMH,therefore born circa 1784,the 10th Earl would have been approx. 50 years old.
I can't find a detailed online record re these children,but the following(item 1) might be worth enquiring about-either directly to the centre or on the Wiltshire board if someone local could visit.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F64526
Regards
Roger
-
Thank you Roger, yes I have entertained this idea especially as the name Augustus appears early in deeds regarding Henry Monkton Herbert and his son Henry Arthur Augustus Herbert. There is a Henry Herbert 1775 appearing on a tree of (From memory George Augustus Herbert) I haven't been able to track. I had also thought it might have been that my HMH descended from Augustus Montgomery the natural child of the 10Th Earl and Kitty Hunter. I have a copy of the Pembroke Papers' 'Henry, George and Elizabeth''. I have also been informed that it is possible if the Henry at Mercers Hospital, this is in Dublin, is ours it is possible he was a patient of one of the professors and not a general patient. HMH's son George published a book about the hospital to which he wrote added notes. He gave family information about a number of the people connected but did not divulge anything about his own family. Lefayre.
-
I had hoped to find a military connection through the regiments associated with the 10th Earl,but like everybody else I can't find any record in any of the Army lists,though the militias are more difficult to research.I've also looked as far as I can at the Honourable East India Company records,but,again,to no avail.It sounds from the tenor of the 1830s reports re the farm and the school at Arklow that he is hardly an active Captain in the Army at this stage(?),"not wanting to be a burden on the family",although he would probably be in his fifties at this stage.
Regards
Roger
-
How kind of you Roger to go to so much trouble! It is appreciated.
In Arklow and Wexford there was much fighting the 1798 rebellion being a horrible time for both sides. My Wexford family the Barlows are the ones closely associated with Pembrokeshire. I would not be surprised if this time period Henry Monkton Herbert could have been wounded which caused his inability to farm the Tinahask land. The lease of the land was taken out in 1816. Now we have a birth date of 1815 for Thomas William Herbert I wonder if he was actually born in Wexford.
Earlier census returns give him as born in Ireland and it is not until the 1891 return Wicklow is designated. This family has lead me a merry dance for so long that with gaps in between births when other children have been born a year apart makes me wonder just where they were. It is possible in between acts they returned to Slebech before ending up in Gorbals. Then again it might have had something to do with military service. Lefayre.
-
A complete coincidence I'm sure,but the 10th Earl of Pembroke took over the governorship of Portsmouth from General Robert Monckton on the latter's death in 1782.While Robert was unmarried he had illegitimate children who I believe are accounted for.However he had a half sister,Mary, through the second marriage of his father,John Monckton,1st Viscount of Galway.
This Mary married Edmund Boyle,7th Earl of Cork in 1786.There was no issue from this marriage.She is buried in Monkton(sic) Vaults,Brewood,Staffordshire.What chance of a liaison
1782-1786?
Regards
Roger
-
Thank you again Roger, you are so helpful and may have come across the clue I need. This gels with a thought I had had that Henry Monkton Herbert was born out of wedlock. Perhaps to a Miss Herbert and Mr. Monkton. In some cases the name has been spelt Moncton/Monckton/ and Monkton.
The time frame would fit the Henry Herbert who died in Mercers Hospital in 1844. Some public trees have him as born 1784.
Henry Monkton Herbert's daughter Jane Emily who as Jane Emily Herbert wrote many Irish patriotic books, married a Dr. Thomas Mills from Staffordshire and her brother Thomas William Herbert was vicar of St John Tipton Staffs.
It is raining today so it looks like a good day to explore my many Herbert files. Herbert has been an important name to my family my father having a brother with given names Sidney Herbert and a sister Gladys Herbert. Sidney and Gladys are Herbert/Pembroke names.
I am quite excited about your information, thank you.
Lefayre.
-
I have read the biography of Mary Monckton in the Dictionary of National Biography and it contains no hint of an illegitimate child.She wouid have been approx. 38 in 1784.
Regards
Roger
-
There are quite some coincidences(?) with your family names,as I'm sure you know.Sidney Herbert,1st Baron Lea was the son of the 11th Earl,George Augustus who had a sister Elizabeth Herbert also born 1809!.
Regards
Roger
-
Dear Roger, here I am again, I just can't let it go. Your last prompted me to look at the pedigree of Robert Monckton, well my head is in a whirl. I recognised the names Wybtranz, Westernra and Fountaine as being in one of the Irish pedigrees for Herbert. These Herbert pedigrees have females marrying Nash and Eyre Powell. Both the Nash and Powell families have lived in the Khyber Lodge and in Sorrento Road, Dalkey. Khyber Lodge was next door to Rockingham in which George and Elizabeth Herbert lived. George was also the immediate lessor of Khyber. Rockingham and Khyber are next door to each other in Nerano Road/Island View Avenue and as the avenue indicates look out to Dalkey Island. Both the Monckton and Herbert family descend from Wybrantz, Westenra and Fountaine.
Henry Monkton Herbert named his first child Henry Arthur, which is the name given to many generations of the above Herbert family. The name Augustus which appears in later documents of my gr.gr. grandfather might indicate Gustavus.
Too many coincidences to not indicate something but what! With gratitude, Lefayre.
-
A Jane Westenra was the second wife of John Monckton,and therefore mother of the Mary Monckton above(and step mother to Robert Monckton?).
Regards
Roger
-
When you say "George and Elizabeth" are you referring to HMH's children,as George Augustus.11th Earl's wife was an Elizabeth(died 1793).Another coincidence? Need sleep shortly,running out of dopamine!
Regards
Roger
-
Yes Roger George and Elizabeth are Henry Monkton Herbert's children.
The children are:-
Henry Arthur Augustus Herbert, master mariner, 1808 Gorbals, died Calcutta 1848
Elizabeth, spinster, 1809-1888,lived Tinahask Arklow, died at Rockingham
George Herbert 1808-1891 publisher, writer business Wicklow and Grafton Street, Dublin, lived Manders Terrace before moving in with sister Elizabeth at Rockingham.
Rev. Thomas William Herbert 1815 Wicklow, died St John Southend on Sea 1902.
Jane Emily Herbert writer 1921, probably Arklow, died Moryn Lodge , Sorrento Road. Dalkey seems to have travelled widely. (Mrs Thomas Mills 1857)
Sleep is the reward of the working man. I think you deserve it. Lefayre.
-
I've now found references to three named illegitimate children of the 10 Earl at The National Archives,but sadly,no Moncktons.
There is also an 1806 attestation for a Henery Hurbert(sic) into the 24th (Light) Dragoons,which apparently recruited in Ireland,and served in India at this time.but,again,no subsequent Captain in the Army Lists.The gap between Elizabeth(1809) and Thomas William(1815) could,perhaps,
suggest service in the Peninsular War.
Perhaps Henry did not have his children baptised(are the known ones births rather than baptisms?),with Thomas William having an adult baptism prior to ordination?
More questions than answers...
Regards
Roger
-
I am trying to make something out of the following small pieces of information
1.A Captain Henry Herbert was given as going from Manchester to Dublin in early 1827
2.A William Loftus was also in Manchester that year.While he is reported as being of the Ist Kings
Dragoon Guards,the Army List has him as of the 2nd Queens Dragoon Guards.Some information has the 2nds being in Scotland in the early 1800s
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Indexes/RN-1827.txt
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Cavalry/Regiments/c_2ndDragoonGuards.html
This William Loftus was also the founder of the 24th Light Dragoons and their Colonel in 1802(see "Henery Hurbert,previous post).
3.A Captain Henry Herbert is also reported as being in Berkeley Square in early 1827.45 Berkeley Square was the address of the Earl of Powis at this time.
4.Possibly a coincidence but George Augustus Herbert,10th Earl of Pembroke died in London in late 1827.
(another more remote coincidence is that Charles Street,Berkeley Square was the residence of the Moncktons(Robert and daughter Mary as previously) in the latter part of the 1700s-not sure about 1827)
Regards
Roger
-
Dear Roger,
I am indeed indebted to you for your interest in my family history. thank you.
No did not know Monkton was near Orielton! Perhaps Jane Barlow's family knew the Herberts? The plot thickens. I have not to date been able to pick up a birth for Henry at Monkton.
There seems to be some mystery surrounding John Barlow and his two marriages. Sir Arthur Turner Thomas has the marriage of John Barlow and Jane Harrison on his Celtic Royal Genealogy but gives them as having Lewis, Arthur and Thomas. This seems impossible as the marriage with Jane was in 1696 and that with Ann Owen in November 1701.
In John Barlow's Will 1716 he does not leave a bequest for Lewis but names him co executor with his mother Ann. This might be that he had already looked after Lewis during his lifetime. I have seen this position taken on other Wills.
Or it might be that Lewis is Jane's son and that the marriage of John and Ann was predated.
The College of Arms has among other siblings. Lewis born 1701, Arthur born 1708 and a younger brother Thomas. Arthur is mentioned in Ann's (by then Cornwallis) 1737 will, but not in his brother Thomas' in 1747.
Thank you again.
Lefayre.
[/i]
Posted on behalf of lefayre
-
I am researching my family history and am trying to determine the names of General Robert Monckton's illegitimate children. Does anyone know who they were and where they were born?
-
I am researching my family history and am trying to determine the names of General Robert Monckton's illegitimate children. Does anyone know who they were and where they were born?
Greetings, and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
Do you mean General Robert Monckton (1726-82)?
(I wouldn't want to hunt the wrong man!)
Philip
-
Phillip
Specifically, I am looking for the children of General Robert Monckton (1726-1782), born on June 24, 1726, the second son of John Monckton, created Viscount Galway in 1727, and Lady Elizabeth Manners, daughter of the Duke of Rutland.