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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: lefayre palmer on Wednesday 26 November 14 06:23 GMT (UK)
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Arthur Barlow of Lawrenny, Slebech born 1708 is mentioned in his father's Will of 1716. Later he is mentioned in his mother's Will in 1732. Ann nee Owen his mother is by then married to the Hon. Thomas Cornwallis. Apart from this nothing is known of this Arthur. From letters and Bible entries Jane Barlow wife of Henry Monkton Herbert is said to be descended from an Arthur Barlow who came to Dublin prior to 1752, this is the date of her father Arthur Barlow a ironmonger/master's birth, who married an Elizabeth Scott in Dublin in 1777. In a marriage announcement Arthur is given as son of Counsellor Barlow of Montgomery Street,Dublin. Recent finds align Jane's brother Arthur Craven Barlow of Saunderscourt and Mt. Anna Wexford with his neighbours the Le Hunte family who came from Slebech. A George Barlow of Slebech and a le Hunte married sisters Joan and Mary Lloyd.
My quest is to verify the ancestry of Jane Barlow's family.
In appreciation of the Pembroke Forum, Lefayre Palmer
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I think the current lack of response may be due to difficulty tracing the will of 1716 you refer to.
I can find reference to it in the NLW "deeds" but not the detail.There is a will of 1693 for an Arthur Barlow of Pen-coed Lawrenny-do you know if he is related?There are certainly a lot of references to the people nominated in that will in the NLW "deeds",though it is a difficult read.
The situation in the deeds is compounded by the number of variant spellings of "Lawrenny",and I have also found one that references a John Barlow Esq of Lawrenni and a John Barlow Esq. of Slebech in the same deed,that reads as if they are different people.
Turning to Ireland,irishgenealogy.ie has many records to consider,perhaps the most likely(?) a series of births at St John Dublin between 1731 and 1744 to an Arthur and Ann,including an Arthur and Jane.It is more difficult to confidently follow these through to a related record of certain identity,
such as Arthur Barlow,solicitor of Great Georges Street who died 1877 aged 78,and possibly a brother John died 1876 aged 84.
I have also found elsewhere baptismal records of both a John and an Arthur Barlow to a John and Mary Barlow in Wicklow in 1757 that may possibly relate to your other recent thread.
Regards
Roger
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Thank you again Roger for your interest, your remarks are a great catalyst to send me back into old files. I have a copy of John Barlow's 1716 will from the National Archives. I feel I have transcribed it fairly accurately. He leaves L1,500 to his 2nd son Hugh and to his 3rd son Arthur -1708-then to 4th son Thomas 1,200. Thomas is an Army man and writes his will in 1737 with no mention of brother Arthur. Arthur is left L150 in his mother's 1732 will. Arthur of 1693 is an adventurer and did not marry he is from memory an uncle of 1708 Arthur might be great uncle.
I see you have cottoned onto the complexities of the Barlow family. Roger and William Barlow, sons of John Barlow and Christian Barley, were from Lancashire. Henry VIII granted them Slebech with Roger buying out William who became a Bishop or Archbishop. Of Roger's children George the eldest continued the Slebech line and William the youngest commenced the Lawrenny line. The Lawrenny line were protestant and the Slebech retained the old faith.
I am not confident the line from 1731 is correct. An archivist at the National Library in Dublin told us they were the ancestors of our counsellor Barlow but would not divulge how she came to that conclusion. It doesn't fit with the family story that Arthur Barlow came from Ireland with a 10 year old son. There were two Barlow lines in Dublin both having solicitors and clergy and living in the same streets, but as far as found not closely related although they both claim to have come from Wales.
I have a number of pedigrees including one registered at the College of Arms which ends with the line of Arthur 1708. Although his siblings have been traced there is no information about him any where birth death or marriage; the only evidence is in the Wills. Best wishes Lefayre.
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The burial of Arthur,solicitor,in 1877 is at St Werburgh.I will trace back "St.Werburgh" events to see if obvious family groups emerge,bearing in mind your caution of "different" families in the same street.I note there are entries for both nos. 4 and 5 Great North Georges Street.
Regards
Roger
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There is an article in the Waterford Mail of March 1824,re the case of "Stourgeon v Douglas",in which a Mr Barlow,a respectable solicitor of Great North George Street was due to give evidence re the handwriting of a testator,but might also have"derived a considerable interest under the will".
Mr Wallace,counsel for the plaintiff,Stourgeon appears to have made some remarks about him,and a "Counsellor Barlow,counsel to the defendant,and son to the Mr.Barlow referred to, declared evidence alluding to his father by Mr Wallace as "grossly false".Further words may have been exchanged.
There is a later reference to the these words of Mr.James Barlow,but also a reference to no action being taken against James Barlow for criminal information,which I interpret as the testimony relating to the handwriting,making James Barlow the name of both father and son,but I am not wholly confident in this.I will try to see if records for St. Werburgh/St George/Great North George Street reveal a consistent family.
Regards
Roger
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There is a James Barlow,barrister at law(1792-1828),third son of James Barlow,late of North Great
Georges Street.Presumably,the father could be known as "Counsellor" also.The burial record that might fit him is in 1825(the year after the court case),at St Werburgh,which gives him as 77 years old i.e. 1748-1825.If Arthur,father of Jane is born c.1752, James senior could be a brother.I can't see obvious baptisms for these.If Arthur is given as son of Counsellor Barlow this would have to imply a previous generation with a barrister.Even in the absence of knowledge of earlier occupations,this Barlow family does not have a clear fit with the family of Arthur/Ann Barlow of St.John.They have an Arthur baptised 1735,who seems too young to be the father of James,unless he has a late baptism or the age of James senior is wrong.They do have a Jane(1831),so there is a hint of family tradition,but no more.
Regards
Roger
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Dear Roger, thank you for your work on St. Werburgh. I have been looking at my old Barlow files and feel sure the people connected with St. Werburgh belong to the family of Sir James Barlow, Lord Mayor of Dublin. This family has as progenitor William Barlow who is possibly the William Barlow from Pembroke who was commissioned to take men to Ireland c1625. So it is not unrealistic to think the two Barlow lines connect back in Wales somehow. I am sorry I didn't get back to you earlier we had a daughter and her youngest son 24, with her husband, come to visit as Andrew, the grandson is going to Spain in a few days and will not be home for Christmas. After they left we had an electric storm. November storms can be rather nasty and one year I had my modem fried, fortunately our safety switch turned off our power resulting in no other losses. Neighbours lost their computer, television etc. Going through the files I am finding markings that now bear further investigation, but have to do other things that cannot wait.
The above search is on my paternal grandfather's line but now I have found that his wife has a line back to Elizabeth Barlow the sister of Roger Barlow of Slebech. I am going to take an autosomnal DNA test to see if it reveals any worthwhile clues. We have had a YDNA test done on a male relative for Arthur Barlow's line which matches the line of the Barlows of Lancashire. Roger and Elizabeth Barlow are of Chorlton Hardy, Lancashire and trace back to the Barlows of Barlow Hall.
My head is whirling with so much information I shall have to be careful as a month after my 80th birthday I collapsed and found myself in hospital, nothing wrong was found, other than age, except for abnormal brain activity. Those who know me laughed even my G.P has been telling me I should slow down. The four doctors involved in the tests decided it was overload. This is just so you forgive me any lapses like the amount Arthur Barlow's mother left him was 50 pounds not 150. Ann Cornwallis formerly Barlow gave a moiety to her children other than Arthur and John, John was born after his father's death and the forthcoming child/twins were accounted for in his will 1716. The 50 pounds to Arthur was added almost as an afterthought so presumably some uncertainty about him existed then, perhaps he had been in Ireland for sometime and the family lost contact.
Just had a call from another grandson he will be calling by soon, so shall close. Lefayre
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I think the current lack of response may be due to difficulty tracing the will of 1716 you refer to.
I can find reference to it in the NLW "deeds" but not the detail.There is a will of 1693 for an Arthur Barlow of Pen-coed Lawrenny-do you know if he is related?There are certainly a lot of references to the people nominated in that will in the NLW "deeds",though it is a difficult read.
The situation in the deeds is compounded by the number of variant spellings of "Lawrenny",and I have also found one that references a John Barlow Esq of Lawrenni and a John Barlow Esq. of Slebech in the same deed,that reads as if they are different people.
Turning to Ireland,irishgenealogy.ie has many records to consider,perhaps the most likely(?) a series of births at St John Dublin between 1731 and 1744 to an Arthur and Ann,including an Arthur and Jane.It is more difficult to confidently follow these through to a related record of certain identity,
such as Arthur Barlow,solicitor of Great Georges Street who died 1877 aged 78,and possibly a brother John died 1876 aged 84.
I have also found elsewhere baptismal records of both a John and an Arthur Barlow to a John and Mary Barlow in Wicklow in 1757 that may possibly relate to your other recent thread.
Regards
Roger
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Dear Roger, I think I may be on to something as I have found that the births you mention in this post between 17 31-35 at St. John Dublin seem to be our line.
I recently found that John Barlow who married Ann Owen married previously a Jane Harrison 1692, both being Clandestine marriages in London. Perhaps our Arthur is he who married an Ann and had children from 1731 the first being a Jane?
It is Boxing Day here and we are expecting visitors I shall get back to you with details.
Thanks for your previous help in the past.
Hope you had a lovely Christmas and will have a great 2016.
Lefayre Palmer
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By clandestine marriages,do I assume these were Catholic?I would have to recheck the specific records you were hoping to link to in case these were Church of Ireland.
Regards
Roger
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Good Morning Roger,
Thank you for your swift reply, especially at this time of the year.
The marriages took place in Fleet Street London. John Barlow appears to have spent more time there than in Wales.
The first John Barlow to Jane Harrison 13 Jan 1696.
The second to Ann Owen 30 Nov 1701.
Dr. Mary White of Dublin Archives sent the our Counsellor Barlow was the son born to Arthur Barlow and Ann (Warren, from an Ancestry Public tree) in 1735.
The children of Arthur and Ann were Jane 1731, Mary 1732, Arthur 1735, John, Elee, and another John so perhaps the first John died young.
Some give Lewis born 1702 as the son of Jane Harrison Barlow, but the pedigree at the College of Arms gives him as son of Ann Owen Barlow.
I am surmising that maybe John and Jane Barlow had a son Arthur abt 1696 to 1701.
Ancestry gives among the sources quoted - Wales Annals and Antiquities vols. 1-11. I am yet to look them up.
The second marriage information comes from English and Wales Non-Conformist Record Indexes (RG4-8) 1588-1977 RG7_008.
I am trying to cull and reorganise 60 odd years of research, private and 40 years for the Women's Pioneer Society of Australasia, so am in a mess with paper work through a number of rooms
and cannot at the moment get to my Barlow records. From memory the weddings at Fleet prison and surrounds including the chapel at the Savoy Palace, (now Hotel), could be a little shady.
Even to the extent that the occasion could be predated for obvious reasons. Also wealthy people not wanting others to know their business would avail themselves of the service. thus the naming of them as Clandestine marriages.
I do not know if religion comes into it. The Slebech Barlows were Roman Catholic but the Lawrenny Barlows were Protestant. The Counsellor's family appear to have been Church of Ireland. I have found I have many different religions in my background.
Posted on behalf of lefayre palmer who had sent the reply to me in error. :)
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To be clear what you are saying:-
Is it this John Barlow who married Anne Owen of Orielton?
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewobject/llgc-id:1417505/get650
Are you further saying that the known children of this marriage do not include an Arthur,therefore Arthur(possibly the father of the St John,Dublin family of the 1730/1740s) must have come from a prior marriage,and the John Barlow of the two marriages are the same person?
If this is the line I wonder if there is a connection with other earlier Barlows(or Barloes) also St John,Dublins follows(at www.irishgenealogy.ie)
James Barlow married Mary Challinor 1650 and though the mother is not specified the following baptisms have James as father
Rose(1653),Mary(1654/5),Elinor(1656),Olver(1656),Richard(1658),James(1662)
Theodore Barlow,no record of marriage,but children
Mary(1653),Margaret(1653),Thomas(1656)
William Barlow,wife Susanna,children
Mary(1702,possibly previous Mary died),James(1702?),William(1704,probably died),Thomas(?),John(1709,probably died),George(1710)
Regards
Roger
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I've now seen your explanation on an Ancestry archive thread.I'm sure you are also aware that Orielton is near Monkton!
Regards
Roger
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Have you seen this under William Barlow of Lawrenny(or are you the author?)
http://www.barlowgenealogy.com/wales/index.html
there is speculation that Arthur Barlow,son of Lewis(married to Mary Owen of Orielton!) "may have emigrated to Ireland".
Apparently,also he was the main beneficiary of his sister Lettice's will of 1690.
(Next part now deleted due to doubt over details)
Regards
Roger
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Dear Roger,
Once again thank you.
From memory this Arthur son of Lewis Barlow and Mary Owen, is he who was an explorer in America with or for Sir Walter Raleigh. to my knowledge it did not marry or have issue.
On Celtic Royal Genealogy it is claimed Arthur son of John Owen and Jane Harrison died BT 1720. If this is right it would preclude him from being our Arthur father of Counsellor Barlow. Arthur's first child is baptised/born 1731.
I cannot identify the entries at St. John's you cite, but the names seem more likely those belonging to the family of Sir James Barlow one time Lord Mayor of Dublin. It is said an ancestor of James is the William who came to Ireland in the 1600s.
Lady Mary Greer grand daughter of Jane Barlow's brother Thomas William, says she knows of no connection between the two families. She also states Jane married a man by the name of Herbert but she knows nothing of them. Another of Thomas' line states that they had nothing to do with Jane as she married beneath her status.
The other brother Arthur Craven on the other hand took out a lease in trust for his brother in law Henry Monkton Herbert, and his son Henry Arthur Augustus Herbert, of 25 acres at Tinahask, Arklow, Wicklow, in 1816. I feel Henry Monkton Herbert may have been injured or ill as he did not work the property but opened a school in Arklow "so as to not burden his children."
On his wedding licence Henry is given as Henry Monckton Herbert, Dublin Esq. Monkton is given on the grave stone of his wife Jane and a list of bonds gives it as Moncton.
This family has been indeed leading me a merry dance and I am so grateful for you help in unravelling it.
Lefayre
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Hi, I wonder how you went in finding any reason for the inclusion of "Craven" in the Barlow name. My connection is through my ancester Jeanette Crowther who was born 1819 in England who married Arthur Craven Barlow. They lived in New York up until their deaths (1891 and 1852 respectively) and are both buried at Yonkers in New York.
I have recently come across a photograph which shows Jeanette visiting her nephew Frank Umbers (my great great grandfather) in Victoria, Australia which I think I can place at about 1880 or 1881 and led me to investigate the line a little further.
I found that Arthur Craven Barlow had siblings in Australia;
From the Argus Newspaper (a Melbourne Victoria newspaper)
BARLOW. On the 7th inst, at his residence, Park
street, Parkville, James, sixth son of the late
Thomas William Barlow, for many years solicitor to
Board of Ordnance in Ireland, late of the National
Bank in this city, aged 47 years. (7th November 1883)
BARLOW- LEE. On the 25th ult., at St. Mark's
Church, by the Rev. Robert B. Barlow, James
Barlow, son of the late Thomas William Barlow,
Esq., of Dublin, to Alice Florence, daughter of
Richard E. Lee, Esq., of Melbourne, civil engineer. (25th April 1867)
Arthur Craven Barlows parents were Thomas William Barlow and Anne Jeffares.
Ann had a sibling Bessie Jeffares who married Thomas Scott, an Anglican clergyman who immigrated to New Zealand. Bessie and Thomas had two sons, one of whom was:
Andrew George Scott (1842-1880), bushranger, self-styled 'Captain Moonlite', was born at Rathfriland, County Down, Ireland, and baptized on 5 July 1842, son of Thomas Scott, Anglican clergyman, and his wife Bessie, née Jeffares.
I wonder if you have made this connection at all?
My ancestors Mr and Mrs Arthur Craven and Jeannette Barlow had two children; Arthur William Barlow and Laviniah Frances Barlow. They both lived in America and died respectively 1925 and 1926.
Yours Joanne Armstrong, Hobart, Australia
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Dear Joanne,
How exciting to find you and to know you live in Tasmania. I have been there several times to visit relatives of my husband. The Perkins family at Launceston and Gunns Plain.
Yes we are of the same family. Jane Barlow who married Henry Monkton Herbert was sister to Arthur Craven Barlow snr., and his twin brother Thomas William who named a son Arthur Craven from whom you descend.
Thomas William's family which includes Lady Mary Greer seem to have considered Jane married below her class and had nothing to do with them. On the other hand Arthur Craven snr., in 1816, leased land in Tinahask, Arklow, Ireland in trust for Heny Monkton and then to his son Henry Arthur Augustus my great great grand father.
A cousin, since deceased, in New Zealand had been in contact with some of the American Barlow/Crowther family and had received a copy of notes either from a diary or Bible which indicated the above about Henry and Jane in which it seems to indicate that the name Craven had come into the family much earlier. We have at least 2 generations in Ireland whose wives names are unknown.
I have visited Captain Moonlite's grave at Gundagai.
Having just returned from a grandson's wedding, which was held at a beautiful country estate out of town, and necessitated staying overnight, I am rather tired. Would love to keep in contact and sort out the various information we might hold that would be the catalyst to solve our mysteries.
We believe not proven that we descend from Roger Barlow of Slebech. Recently I have found through my paternal grandfather I descend from his sister Elizabeth. The line from Jane Barlow is through my paternal grandfather.
Best wishes, Lefayre Palmer, Sydney, Australia
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Hi Lefayre, thanks for the quick reply. My connection with the Barlow family is through the marriage of my 3x great grandmother's sister. She was Jeanette Crowther and married Arthur Craven Barlow.
Jeanette and Arthur went to America from England and lived in New York. The Crowther family had a carpet factory at West Farms (now part of the Bronx) and Jeanette's brother Richard managed the business there. Through Crowther contacts in England I have an image of Arthur Craven Barlow who died in 1852 and I also have a bad copy of a photograph taken of Jeanette Barlow around 1880.
That pic lead me to take a look at other Barlows in Victoria as beside Jeanette in the photo is a young girl of about 6 or eight and she does not fit anywhere in my Umbers family. Jeanette was the aunt of my great great grandfather Frank Umbers, (Umbers is my maiden name)
You are no doubt aware of the Barlows in Victoria; A couple of Arthur's brothers came to Victoria and now I am talking from memory without consulting files, an Emily Barlow was there too, married a policeman I think. I will have to dig out my files to properly check, but ignore me if you already have all this information and can recall it easily in order.
You didn't mention if you realised the connection of Captain Moonlites grave, or if you had just visited it as a tourist attraction? I bought a book about him, published in the 60's after I found the connection and there is still a fair bit of conjecture about his real story from what I can gather.
When trying to pinpoint the date of the photograph with Jeanette Barlow in it (and five of the six sons of my ancester Frank Umbers, plus the little girl and also Frank) I have tried to pinpoint the year of Jeanette's visit but could not find any likely Barlow's on the ships passenger lists.
I often scout around for random family info and the photograph I am talking about came from a chap in Greenwood, Indiana who is a descendant of Jeanette and Arhtur's. He has a diary of Jeanette's dated 1851 or so and kindly sent me the photo, although a really bad scanned copy. I have been unable to keep in touch with him so have no details of the diary which he found in a house on the death of his grandmother I believe.
I am happy to share what information I have; if you would prefer to email privately let me know, kind regards Joanne
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Dear Joanne,
When browsing the web I found that you have had correspondence with my cousin Bronwyn in New Zealand. Bronwyn passed away some time last year. It was she who was corresponding with someone in America I believe, who had the diary/Bible I talked about. I have't been able to find my copy it was not in the Crowther/Barlow file.
I have quite a bit on Captain Moonlite and when I visited the grave I had the funniest sensation. suddenly the wife of our Gundagai guide threw her arms around me and held me very tightly. She sensed my reaction and when I questioned her as to why she had done it she said she had seen the reaction before. This was strange as Captain Moonlite was only remotely connected to me.
Don't believe everything you read in the Calderwood book, it is quite often way of the mark.
Captain Moonlite was first buried in Sydney but the people of Gundagai not believing Captain Moonlite as bad as his press had the body exhumed and reburied with great ceremony at Gundagai. The site is on the top of the hill under a magnificent old tree looking over the whole cemetery and into the distance.
I am in the throes of culling and reorganising my 60 odd years of research so am not at the moment very efficient with my filing. I have many folders and many filing cabinets with no more room to file so you perhaps can imagine the mess I am in.
My email is (*)
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Lefayre
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Having now found that John Barlow of Lawrenny, Wales married twice at FLEET in London, the possibility of my Barlows being descendants of the first marriage to Jane Harrison in 1696 arises.
If Arthur Barlow who married an Ann is his son, and who named his eldest child Jane in 1731 and is father of Counsellor Arthur Barlow born 1735, then family writings and oral history falls into place.
Arthur's brother John born 1744 had two sons Arthur and Thomas Barlow. Would I be lucky enough to find any of their descendants.
Living in hope.
Lefayre Palmer
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My name is Richard barlow. I live in Wexford in Ireland . I came across your posts by accident and its wonderful to get so much information about the barlow name. It is difficult to track back how we arrived in Ireland as most of the records were sadly destroyed in the 1800s. We have barlow headstones in our graveyard dating back to late 1700s. Arthur John richard and Walter are continuing names in the barlow clan to this day. This post is probably of no help to you but you never know
Many thanks Richard
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I recently had the honour of seeing the crypts at St. Werburgh's - the Barlows have a vault to themselves deep within - not for the faint of heart if you wish to explore further..