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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: Westy11 on Wednesday 26 November 14 13:18 GMT (UK)
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Hoping for some assistance to locate the baptism or if not the birth of Charlotte Constance Ball parents unknown. Charlotte also used the name Constance as her forename.
According to census records Charlotte was born in Tealby, Lincolnshire, England abt 1861.
I am unsuccessful with locating her and hoping for some assistance please.
Westy11
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Sight of her marriage certificate should give a fathers name and her status.
Maybe she was a widow and Ball wasn't her birth name?
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Sorry marriage certificate also not found. :-[
She married Edward Goldsworthy James in 2nd q 1877 Marylebone. That piece of information I located on FindMyPast.
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Might have to send for the marriage certificate to get more information :-\
The marriage was actually 1887 so she was old enough to have been married before.
Jun 1887 Marylebone 1a 1046
Charlotte Constance Ball
Edward Goldsworthy James
Can't see it online unfortunately :(
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1891 cencus
Edward G James 37
Charlotte James 31
Georgina C James 6
Theodora A James 1
Annie B Newcomb 22(Nurse/servant)
First child is born in Berkshire . Maybe to different mother...
Georgina Mabel C James
1885 Apr-May-Jun
Wallingford District: 2c pg 312
1901 RG13; Piece: 1159; Folio: 32; Page: 27
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There's a Charlotte Ball TODD? (on A*try) born Jun Qtr1860 Caistor.
Maybe worth a look?
Maureen
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There is a possibly EGJ died 5 Nov 1928, Barnes London/Surrey. Age 75. No widow on will. Perhaps Charlotte had died? EGJ possibly born 1853. Exeter. Devon. Perhaps Edward and Charlotte married in the Register Office?
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She may have died as Constance James aged 46 in Eton district, Sep qtr 1907.
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There's a Charlotte Ball TODD? (on A*try) born Jun Qtr1860 Caistor.
Maybe worth a look?
Maureen
Definitely worth a look as census entries show she was born in Tealby.
1860: Baptised as Charlotte Ball Todd at Tealby, 2 May, mother Eliza.
1861: With Eliza Todd (23 b Tealby) and her maternal grandparents in Tealby - Charlotte Todd aged 1.
1871: Appears as Charlotte Ferraby, 11, with mother Eliza who has married* Ruben/Reuben Ferraby.
1881: In service in Harrogate as Charlotte Ferriby, 21.
*Not sure whether they actually married.
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Hi All
Thanks so much for your endeavors.
I have ordered the marriage certificate as this will give some certainty from which further research will be more viable.
Regards
Westy11
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:) And you will keep us informed on any new info....
please.
Maureen
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Will do Maureen. It can take around 2 weeks for me to receive a certificate so it will be a bit of a wait I'm afraid.... :)
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;D ;D ;D
I'm very patient.
Maureen
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This is good Maureen. I have to be patient and am very interested to see the certificate.
Westy11
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Eliza also Baptised a Daughter FANNY DUN Todd, 14 Jan 1863, All Saints, Tealby
1871 in Tealby we have;
George Todds 60
Elizabeth Todds 59
Fanny Todds 8
Eliza Ferreby 4
Rebecca Gally 16
Jane Elvin 18
Marriage Reg, March 1864, Hull, 9d 268
Reubin FERRIBY and Eliza TODD on same page
Marriage;04 Jan 1864, Holy Triity, Hull, Yorkshire
Reubin FERRIBY age 25, Father CHARLES
Eliza TODD age 26, Father GEORGE
Both Single
(Familysearch.Org)
Reuben FERRABY Baptised 21 Aug 1836, St Mary, South Kelsey, Lincs
Parents CHARLES/MARY
Fathers Occp Labourer, abode Wingle
There is a MARY to them same Church 15 March 1840, Fathers Occp Shepherd
(FreeREG)
Possible Marriage;
Charles FERRIBY to Mary WRIGHTMAN Or Wrightham
3 August 1833, Kingston-Upon-Hull, York
(Familysearch.Org)
1851 Charles Ferraby is born c 1806 Rothwell, Lincs and Mary c 1808 Tetney, Lincs. Charles is a Shepherd.
1841 in South Kelsey we have;
Charles Ferraby 30
Mary Ferraby 30
Jane Ferraby 7
Reuben Ferraby 5****
Maria Ferraby 3
Mary Ferraby 1
Trish :)
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Hello Trish
Thank you so much for that information. I am tempted to include it straight away without waiting or the certificate but I have promised myself to be patient. Once it is confirmed your efforts will have added so much to my research.
Kind regards
Westy11
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Hi All
Marriage Certificate finally arrived and Charlotte Constance Ball was a spinster when she married. Her father Willett Ball was a hotel proprietor in Regents Park.
No luck as yet in finding her birth given she was a Ball at marriage. I also purchased a death certificate that proved to be a dead end [no pun intended].
Charlotte was 26 at marriage.
Westy11
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Willit/Willitt Ball was a police constable in Tealby in May/June 1859 (there are mentions of him in the Stamford Mercury).
In the mid 1860's he was landlord of the City of Commerce Inn in Lincoln.
In the 1871 and 1881 censuses he was a publican at the Granby Hotel in Hull. He died there in 1883.
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Hello Shaun J
Thanks for that... Every little bit of information brings me closer to finding Charlotte's birth.
Kind regards
Westy11
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Aaargh! So are we discounting that Charlotte Ball TODD? The fact that Willit was in Tealby around the right time gives a little weight to the possibility..... :-\
Westy,who were the witnesses to Charlotte's marriage and what was her address please?
Maureen
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You'd have to check Willit/Willitt/Willett Ball's police records but it looks like he left the force circa 1860. There's a prison warder in Lincoln in 1861 who seems a possibility - enumerated as William Ball. After that he is running inns. He married Ann Hyde(s) nee Cooper in Hull in 1864.
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The Willit Ball mentioned as being a prison under warder in Lincoln in the 1861 census and also the proprietor of the Granby Hotel in Wellington St. Hull in the 1871 & 1881 census was a 2 x Great Uncle of mine.
He was the 6th child of Philip and Mary Ann Ball and was born in 1836 at 19 Westgate, Lincoln, more commonly known as the Struggler Inn. His baptism took place on the 10th April 1836 at St Paul in the Bail. He started his working life as a Bakers Assistant at Far Newland St. Lincoln before joining the police force, However I have yet to find any evidence linking him to the Village of Tealby.
As previously stated by ShaunJ he married an Ann Hyde, nee Cooper at St James, Sutton on Hull in 1864. Ann was the widow of William Henry Hyde and they married in 1859 and had 3 children, Julia, William & Jessie before William senior passed away in 1864, that same year Ann married Willit Ball also at Sutton on Hull. The couple had 2 children John in 1865 and Ann in 1867, both born in Lincoln. It was about this time that Willit was the Proprietor of the Treaty of Commerce at 175 High Street, Lincoln before taking over the Granby Arms from his Sister Ann and her husband John Thorpe.
Willit passed away on the 19th March 1883 in Hull.
I am sorry to say that I have been unable to find any link with Willit and a Charlotte Constance Ball nor can I find any evidence of my particular Willit having owned or run a hotel in Regents Park.
All my research shows this particular Willit Ball spent all his life in Lincoln and Hull.
Alan
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I don't think there is any evidence to link Charlotte's father with Regents Park, save that both she and her husband gave a Regents Park address on the marriage register.
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Hi Shaun
I think it was Westy11 who said that the marriage certificate for Charlotte showed her father Willett Ball was a hotel proprietor in Regents Park.
I am fairly certain that my ancestor Willit Ball, ex police Warder and Publican has no connection to the Charlotte Constance Ball that Westy11 is searching for.
Alan
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As ShaunJ has posted earlier in the thread, there is at least one newspaper report linking a policeman named Willit Ball to Tealby in 1859 - available via the British Newspaper Archive and Findmypast.
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As ShaunJ has posted earlier in the thread, there is at least one newspaper report linking a policeman named Willit Ball to Tealby in 1859 - available via the British Newspaper Archive and Findmypast.
Yes I saw that thread and I am almost certain it is not the same person mentioned earlier as the Willit Ball in the 1861 Census for Lincoln as that Willit was not a policeman but an "Under Warder" at the City Prison who as I said is my 2 x Great Uncle
Alan
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There are so few Willit/Willett Balls around in England at any point in time, let alone in Lincolnshire, that the name alone would suggest that this is all the same person - who was the policeman in Tealby in 1859, then became a prison under warder by 1861 and then an innkeeper.
I think it is worth checking the Lincolnshire Constabulary records to see if the registers of service etc survive from that 1859/60 period. http://www.lincstothepast.com/Lincolnshire-Constabulary/821139.record?pt=S
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It should be pointed out that Willitt/Willit/Willet was often a shortened name for William and infact the 1861 census for the Lincoln City Gaol has the name listed as WILLIAM BALL
Alan
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It's also perhaps worth pointing out that the said Strugglers Inn, birthplace of Wil* BALL was just across the road from the old Lincoln gallows and is said to have taken its name from the antics of those executed.
It is also a similar distance from the walls of Lincoln Castle which housed Lincoln gaol in the mid 1800s, so any appearance of Wil* BALL in the vicinity could be seen as a homecoming. :)
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Hi
I too am not sure which Willett Ball was the father of Charlotte Constance Ball.
The marriage certificate has the following points:
* Willett - definitely this spelling
* Residence at time of marriage - both Edward and Charlotte gave the same address of 1 Hanover Place Regents Park
* Charlotte's father occupation listed as Hotel Proprietor
* Charlotte was aged 26 and a spinster
* Witnesses were Charles J Ross & the other name is uncertain so have attached a snapshot
* Married by License at the Parish Church in the Parish of St Marylebone in County of Middlesex
# In the 1891 Census taken on 5 Apr 1891 Charlotte uses Charlotte as her name and she has stated she was 31 years of age born at Tealby Lincolnshire - this indicates a birth about 1860
# In the 1901 census taken on 31 Mar 1901 Charlotte uses Constance as her name and she has stated she was 40 years of age born at Tealby Lincolnshire. These 2 census dates and the slight difference in age may indicate a birth somewhere between 31 Mar and 5 April.
It has interested me that Charlotte was not mentioned as a child of Willet Ball born abt 1836 in Lincoln, St Pauls, Lincolnshire, England in 1871 Census RG10/4786/13 p21. This person I assume is the person referred to by Alan7637 as his 2nd x great uncle.
This Willet and Ann his wife appear in the 1881 census with an address of Public H Wellington St ref RG11/4765/7 p 8
Given that Charlotte married in 1887 with an address at Regents Park is interesting if she was the daughter of this Willet and Ann Ball who a few years earlier living at Hull
Whilst it wasn't impossible for Charlotte to be conceived out of wedlock she was born abt 1860 - 1861 and Willit and Ann of Alan7636 were married in 1864.
Westy11 :-\
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The other witness is M E Pontyfix.
There is a Mary E Pontyfix in the 1891 census in Paddington St, Marylebone.
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I think it was Westy11 who said that the marriage certificate for Charlotte showed her father Willett Ball was a hotel proprietor in Regents Park.
A marriage certificate does not normally show the place of abode of father.
Charlotte and her groom said their abode was Hanover Place - it actually looks quite a dingy little alley. Perhaps it was a boarding house that one or both were staying in.
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Geoff-E
I agree the marriage does not state the abode of the father however it was the case in many instances where the daughter lived with her parents until marriage.
What would have been the full address for 1 Hanover Place Regents Park please Geoff-E???
Westy11
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Hanover Place was a terrace of houses close to the Clarence Gate entrance to Regents Park. You can see it marked on this 1862 map, to the left. http://www.motco.com/map/81006/SeriesSearchPlatesFulla.asp?mode=query&artist=390&other=520&x=11&y=11
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I fear I was looking at the wrong Hanover Place (WC2) when I should have been looking at Regents Park NW3. :-[
There is however a Hanover Terrace and Hanover Gate at Regents Park which are far from dingy.
I notice these are very close to Marylebone Station, so I would suggest your place would be-
Hanover place
Park road
St. Marylebone
as listed here http://www.maps.thehunthouse.com/Streets/Old_to_New_Abolished_London_Street_Names.htm#H
You will see Park Road and Hanover Terrace (not Place) on this map, so I think the area is quite clear. :)
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=527716&Y=182325&A=Y&Z=106
(map edited to reflect ShaunJ's findings)
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Occupants of 1 Hanover Place in 1881 were a Mary Sherwood, 74, and her two sisters, with one servant and two lodgers. In 1891 the occupant is Frances Walton/Walters and two Smith nieces, one servant and two lodgers. It is a lodging house.
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I think I may have found something relevant to the root problem.
In the 1861 census at Tealby, there is a Charlotte TODD (1) with grandparents and a (presumed) mother Eliza.
Looking at the IGI I find a baptism of Charlotte Ball TODD, dau of Eliza, bap 2 May 1860 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J76Z-CH3
Looking now at FreeBMD there is-
Births Jun 1860
TODDS Charlotte Ball Caistor 7a 587
:D
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Perhaps Charlotte appears as FERRABY in 1871 but I can find no marriage for her mother. :-\
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Hi Geoff,
We've more or less covered Charlotte Ball TODD on pages 1 and 2 of this thread. (just to save you looking for her again.)
Maureen
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Hi Geoff,
We've more or less covered Charlotte Ball TODD on pages 1 and 2 of this thread. (just to save you looking for her again.)
Maureen
Thanks Maureen, I came late to the party. :-\
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But you brought presents! :)
I'm a little blinkered at ths point but I still think she's the only likely candidate.
Maureen
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It's also perhaps worth pointing out that the said Strugglers Inn, birthplace of Wil* BALL was just across the road from the old Lincoln gallows and is said to have taken its name from the antics of those executed.
It is also a similar distance from the walls of Lincoln Castle which housed Lincoln gaol in the mid 1800s, so any appearance of Wil* BALL in the vicinity could be seen as a homecoming. :)
Hello Geoff ;)
Its good to have your valued input on this particular subject however I must take issue with Willit and a homecoming to the Strugglers.
I doubt anyone connected with the Police would have been welcome at that watering hole. You must remember that Willit's Father Philip Ball destroyed the Castle walls and was in and out of prison for over 15 years. Also Willit's eldest brother, Phillip William Ball, was convicted of killing a man in a Lincoln brothel. I therefore think that Willit would have been safer living in Hull ;D
Alan
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I therefore think that Willit would have been safer living in Hull ;D
Ah yes Alan, but perhaps it was safer than hanging around for too long in Tealby! ;)
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The vacant post of under warder was advertised on 21 September 1860:
LINCOLN CITY GAOL.
UNDER TURNKEY WANTED.
WANTED,an active Single Man as UNDER TURNKEY, at the Lincoln City Prison. Applicants must not be above 35 years of age. Salary £40 per annum. Furnished apartments in the prison, and coals and candles allowed...
I can't find a report of Willit's appointment but there is a mention of his subsequent resignation and replacement:
"A young man named Waller, from Collingham, was yesterday appointed turnkey at the city gaol, the place of Willet Ball, resigned. There were nine candidates." (31 May 1861)
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But you brought presents! :)
I'm a little blinkered at ths point but I still think she's the only likely candidate.
Maureen
A father with an unusual name with the right profession. Apparently someone with the same name as her (alleged) father was around in the place she was born shortly before she was born (there was no other BALL remaining in Tealby in 1861). Her name had been changed once following her mother's "marriage", what's the harm in changing it again to be the same as her father's? Hotel proprietor sounds better than coal dealer if you're marrying an accountant.
Comment to ShaunJ: Good stuff you've found! No Bastardy Bonds in the Stamford Mercury? :)
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She may have died as Constance James aged 46 in Eton district, Sep qtr 1907.
To keep all in the loop - I purchased the death certificate for this Constance James and it definitely wasn't Charlotte Constance James nee Ball
Have purchased the birth certificate for Constance Ball Todds so will be interesting...
Westy11
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Stamford Mercury 28 September 1860, page 4 final column:
"Willit Ball of Lincoln and late of the county constabulary was yesterday elected under-turnkey at the City gaol. There were eight candidates. "
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As ShaunJ has posted earlier in the thread, there is at least one newspaper report linking a policeman named Willit Ball to Tealby in 1859 - available via the British Newspaper Archive and Findmypast.
Yes I saw that thread and I am almost certain it is not the same person mentioned earlier as the Willit Ball in the 1861 Census for Lincoln as that Willit was not a policeman but an "Under Warder" at the City Prison who as I said is my 2 x Great Uncle
Alan
Are you still "almost certain" Alan? ;)
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As ShaunJ has posted earlier in the thread, there is at least one newspaper report linking a policeman named Willit Ball to Tealby in 1859 - available via the British Newspaper Archive and Findmypast.
Yes I saw that thread and I am almost certain it is not the same person mentioned earlier as the Willit Ball in the 1861 Census for Lincoln as that Willit was not a policeman but an "Under Warder" at the City Prison who as I said is my 2 x Great Uncle
Alan
Are you still "almost certain" Alan? ;)
As of this moment Geoff I'm treating the evidence as "Questionable" But as far as Constance is concerned, until such time as proof that her father is MY Willit Ball from Lincoln then I am cannot accept the evidence so far provided in this thread.
Alan
ps have a good Christmas Geoff :D
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Hi All
I too do not want to accept any connection to the incorrect Willit Ball. I am sure you will agree with me that without evidence to prove it, either way, it only becomes assumptions or likelihood.
It may well be there is a connection between the Willit/Willett Balls and that connection may be further back in their lines.
I know I have many instances were, generation after generation the same names are used, and in fact, I currently have 4 generations where the same name was used in the various lines all being cousins of one variety or another. Many of my lines are Quakers who were very concerned about paying respect to their ancestors by naming their children after them. My father bears one of the names that has come down the line since 1650.
It certainly makes for a challenging time to differentiate but differentiate one must.
Merry Christmas to all and thank you so much for you assistance and discussion and insight into what is proving to be a challenge. :)
Westy11