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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Redroger on Wednesday 26 November 14 18:42 GMT (UK)
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John's (Jack's) mother is known to have been Lily King b September 1871 Leighton Buzzard Beds, yet she is something of a mystery. I have so far been unable to find her birth and to confirm her parents. What i am trying to find (amongst several other things) is the origin of the name Travers. I am a 1st cousin twice removed of jack Cornwell, and have an extensive family tree on the Cornwell side, which has no mention of the name Travers other than in his case. I wonder if it was the maiden name of his maternal grandmother/ Can anyone help please?
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I presume you have discounted this birth?
Births Sep 1871
King Lilly Leighton B. 3b 399
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Another similar post here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=705669.msg5486768#msg5486768
Carol
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Thanks both; strangely I did not find the Leighton Buzzard birth on Free BMD when I searched; is it me or the site? Probably me.
Recent information and postings have given me horrible doubts as to whether Lily King was in fact jack's mother.
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But it wasn't me. Free BMD only shows a Lily King b West Ham in March 1871. This is interesting in itself bearing in mind where the Cornwell family lived later on; but even extending the search into 1872 still only showed the same birth only.
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I searched on KING, place and year, considering the possibility of the name being Elizabeth, Lliy/Lilly being a diminutive of Elizabeth. Note the different spelling of LILLY two L's, it is on free BMD.
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Thanks for that; Had missed the double L
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In 1881 Lily is shown as Lilly King in Leighton Buzzard with widowed Elizabeth.
In 1891 she appears as Lillie King, and as a servant in Folkestone.
Annette
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Its a strange 1881 Census.
There is a Mary Elizabeth WILES Birth Reg 1864 in Bedfordshire.
I can only find 1 Wiles/King Marriage between 1864-1871
Charlotte WILES age 24 (1845), Father JAMES (no surname) married George KING age 24 (1845), Father GEORGE King, 07 Jan 1869, Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire
(Familysearch.Org)
1891 Eli is Married to Alice born c 1865 Maidstone, Kent
1901 to Lily born c 1864 Leighton B
Cant find either Marriage ::)
EDIT;
Marriage Reg, Sept 1884, West Ham, 4a 139
Alice Maud MARETT or Alice CARPENTER on same page
1871 Census there is a Alice Carpenter born c 1865 Maidstone, Kent
1891 Alice is age 26
Possible Death Reg Dec 1897 Maldon, 4a 309 age 32
Still cant find Marriage to Lily
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Thank you all for your input. Trish, that is the problem, we have been unable to find a marriage for Lily King either. There is one possibility which i intend to check; very many of Eli's (and my) family members in the Cambridge area were members of the strict Baptist Congregation at Lode. I wonder; and intend to check, whether Eli's marriage to Lily took place in their premises, and was never registered in the conventional manner. Believe me, such weddings still occur today; married in the sight of God etc. and blow the authorities!
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john travers cornwell did in fact live in kent at one time contrary to most opinions and attended school at dunkirk next to boughton under blean nr faversham kent. hes recorded there and is on the role of honour and it can be seen on the FAVERSHAM.ORG official town website. under dunkirk village. i come from there
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king is a well known local name in the boughton area
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Many thanks for this. Another line of enquiry.
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I'm sure that you must have found this by now, but Lily (recorded as Lilley) King was bp.26/11/1871 Leighton Buzzard, daughter of George King and Charlotte (nee Wiles or Wild, depending on what record you look at).
On 1881 census - Lilly is shown as daughter to Elizabeth King, widow. plus a sibling Mercy E. Wiles bc.1864 Wendover, Buckinghamshire. However, on 1871 census Mercy Wiles is shown as 'niece' to George and Charlotte i.e. Mercy and Lily were cousins not sisters. So is 'Elizabeth' King, widow in 1881, really Charlotte who's husband George appears to have died in 1875?
Charlotte Wiles (bc.1844) was the daughter of James Wiles (Wild, or Wyells) and wife Fanny Smith and not baptised until 1852 at Ellesborough which is where the family lived 1841/1851 and 1861. She did have an older sister Elizabeth b.1840/1841 (also baptised 1852) but 'Elizabeth' King in 1881 is the same age as Charlotte. At the end of the day, Mercy was a niece to Charlotte (1871 census, doesn't appear to have been baptised) and Lily was her daughter following her marriage to George King (baptism). Can't see the name 'Travers' coming from Lily Kings family.
Annette
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I am confused. Parents according to Find a Grave:
Eli Cornwell
1853–1916
Alice Cornwell
1865–1919
Sibling Arthur Frederick Cornwell
1887–1918
Inscription
In Memoriam
First Class Boy JOHN TRAVERS
CORNWELL V.C.
Born 8th January 1900
Died of wounds received at
the Battle of Jutland
2nd June 1916.
This stone was erected by scholars and ex-scholars
of schools in East Ham.
"It is not wealth or ancestry
but honourable conduct and a noble
disposition that make men great." Ovid
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tbh sounds like they may possibly have romany roots because many of the names mentioned are known romany surnames.
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Frightened of further unrest in the area, the Government decided a Christian mission might help, made Dunkirk a proper parish (at last), and built both a church and a school. The church, at the top of Boughton Hill, was declared redundant some years ago and has been converted in to a dwelling.
Its most famous ex-pupil is Jack Cornwell, hero of the 1918 Battle of Jutland in World War I, who, though mortally wounded, stayed alone at his gun on HMS Chester and kept firing it. He was awarded the VC posthumously.
sorry i seem to have pasted most of the page from faversham .org. about dunkirk,i spoke to the council today and had a go at them for getting the date of the battle of jutland wrong. lol they didnt like it. told them they should have been able to get the date of the greatest sea battle in british history correctly. i asked them to correct it because its of national interest.
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i went to school and grew up in boughton thats why i was always aware of that cornwell went to school there.
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i forgot to add that one of my family was an elizabeth tong who married into the local king family at dunkirk area over 200 years ago. believe the ancestors are still around the area. they would obviously be my families cousins from way back. whether its the same family or not i dont know. but my mothers family originate in dunkirk 100s of years ago. seems strange jack went to school there. the school wouldnt make that claim if it wasnt true since he would have attended there only a short while before. a vc winner would have been celebrated as was neames from the faversham brewing family who also lived locally and was paraded through the streets by cheering crowds.
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There are many twists and turns in this road Roblet. I am sure that this is just a typo in that the Battle of Jutland took place off DEnmark on the 31st May to 1st June 1916. I believe that I , my siblings and other cousins are as close relatives to Jack as survive today. The relationship is through my maternal grandfather, Samuel Ayres who was the son of James Ayres (1844-1923) and Emily Cornwell (1850-1941), Emily being his Aunt. I think this makes us his 1st cousin 2 or 3 times removed. Rmote though it is the link is definite. My grandmother who lived with us until her death in 1953 was very close to Jacks' mother and told me a lot about how to add to her distress his body was exhumed for a state funeral to boost national morale!
The Ayres family had lived at Bottisham (Lode) Cambs since at least the 17th century, and I am aware that Ayres is reputed to be a gypsey surname, so in some ways this came as no surprise to me to find that the Cornwells were too. However, another mystery is that I have recently had an Mt DNA test which came out as 15% British!! (Will Javid evict me?) and 84% West European (as I am a serious Brexiteer this worries me!) The other 1% being Arab, Indian or Computer noise!! This may all have altered since I last looked as more data became available, but no trace of the partly anticipated gypsies!
However, there is obiously a lot more work to do. Still no sign of Travers, (he wasn't the neighbout in 1901)
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Just one further question. What was the King family' religious affiliation? The Ayres/Cornwell relations were strict Baptist at the Lode congragation.
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tbh dunkirk in the blean was a 5000 acre forest and was a vast squatter and gypsy settlement. also many came into the area for the fruit and hop picking seasons. the king family are related to us as a female elizabeth tong married a king. king is also a common gypsy name. as for your dna well that should be checked against his male relatives known family whom i believe moved to canada. although one in the navy claims to be his great nephew.check your dna against his.its common for gypsies to call side relations cousins,same as in the old days and especially in the usa today. close family friends would also be referred to as ''auntie'' ive done it myself. why dont you ask faversham/swale council where they got the records from. theres was no actual village of dunkirk just scattered home built dwellings . my family owned about 4 places around there. but we arent gypsies,mine were rabid puritans.2 of them were called ''acts apostles'' ive also seen youve asked before on here redroger about gypsies, well i believe some of your other names are too. tbh. i do too however have several cousins who are married to gypsies and their children are my cousins and i have many gypsy friends. a lot of homeless lived in these ''itinerant camps'' as the govt called them,there was a huge one at fawkham in kent . perhaps they had relatives there. also that name eli sounds suspiciously like a gypsy name as the christian ones usually took biblical names. eli means god in hebrew ,go on the RTFHS site where they keep all the records for travellers,its a brilliant site. if cornwell was there then it was probably for the fruit or hop picking,also eyres is another version of ayres. tbh ive seen gypsies even get names wrong on here,someone asked is loveridge a gypsy name and some ''expert'' said no, well hes wrong too because it is.and very common. in fact im certain that this cornwell and eli family has gypsy roots. i was just about to post this when you asked me about the kings religion. well my tong family were puritans originally, so were the sellings/shillings and the branchetts were huguenots and many in that area were non conformists and it was a hotbed of puritans ,but puritanism was gradually stamped apon by the c of e. my gran used to go with 100s of others on a sunday to listen to the travelling preacher at shottenden woods where theres a pulpit cut out of the banks,he came on horseback. he was probably baptist or methodist. theres still old chapels about the area. my gran was born 1888. her grandfather born about 1830 lived at shottenden but he was born dunkirk as was her grandmother mary tong. and her father too , the c of e had a campaign against them imposing tithes apon their churches in an effort to stamp them out.i would imagine they would now be c of e. i mean the names in my family lol there were two ''acts apostles'' isaac was my 3 x great grandad, there were josiah's josephs and many more, they were puritans. i believe that king family still existed in the area when i was a kid,i remember spencer king was a wealthy contractor but believe his son died but think they are still about the blean area. they arent gypsies anymore . if they were that is. gypsies were originally restricted by law and could only reside in the woods.
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That is a history in itself Roblet..Thanks I am doing some research on Tuesday, I was going to try and pin down my 3 great grandfather's records but will try to make a fresh start on Jack's mother instead.
By the way I am told that parts of the family had arranged marriages I have found some circumstantial evidence but have largely VB met with a wall of silence which makes me suspicious.
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dont get too excited lol but lilian annie king born 1872 blean kent. believe dunkirk came under blean or bridge area registration . eli previously served in the army.well there were several large barracks in that area at nearby canterbury also dover and folkestone and in faversham. and maidstone and chatham/gillingham.no death seen for that name. i dont have ancestry or subs to any site so you must check this out,BUT! if jack went to dunkirk school then my bet is this may be her. had to check it out because suspense was killing me especially as she may be distantly related. hope it is. the old canterbury barracks were on sturry rd. also blean covered the area next to caterbury and whitstable as well. my 4th tong cousin lives in blean area. just checked and it was blean reg district then. so if true this would be why its on the faversham website.
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theres also swathes of travers families in kent as well i can see on the indexes, that could be one of her ancestors names possibly her mothers or grandparents maiden name etc
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got a reply from faversham, swale council and theyve amended the battle date to 1916 and say he attended as a pupil at dunkirk, this was an infant/junior school.would have helped if they said when.but the historian , the learned mr percival has passed away .
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Thanks very much Roblet, I went to our local library this morning and started afresh with Jack. I found that in the 1911 census he and at least one, probably two brothers were accomodated in the workhouse at West Ham. From memory there was some problem over their care, and later they came out of care and went home again. Next stop to look at the Baptist marriage records if they are deposited to find if Eli and Lily did marry in a Baptist church and weren't bothered about the civil registration. I attended such a marriage in the 1990s, they were persuaded it was important to secure things like legitimacy and state pensions etc, so they had a civil ceremony first. Strangely enough it ended in divorce!
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Your mention of the Puritans reminds me that the Ayres/Cornwell extended family at Bottisham/Lode (Cambs) and their community in general were strong supporters of Oliver Cromwell, who was born at Huntingdon, less than 20 miles away in the fens, and was the MP for Cambridge. After the restoration of the Stuarts on the throne there was very heavy repression of them for their support of Cromwell, and for the extreme Protestant religion. There are stories (quite unconfirmed unfortunately) that the name Cornwell is in fact a version of Cromwell altered in an attempt to avoid the persecution of the new high church Anglo/Catholic monarchy as it then was prior to the 1688 Act of Rights passed by the then English Parliament. This led to the placing of George I, formerly Elector of Hanover on the throne of the now United Kingdom by Parliament after the death of the last Stuart Monarch Queen Anne in 1714.
The throne was offered by Parliament to the nearest Protestant descendant of Charles I who happened to be George, the direct ancestor of the present Royal Household. The present Queen, Elizabeth II being the 10th generation on from him.
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john travers cornwell did in fact live in kent at one time contrary to most opinions and attended school at dunkirk next to boughton under blean nr faversham kent. hes recorded there and is on the role of honour and it can be seen on the FAVERSHAM.ORG official town website. under dunkirk village. i come from there
i am on the site now, but can't find him. In fact though on the map Dunkirk does not appear in the list of villages. Am I missing something or is it likely to have been removed for updating due to the error of the date of Battle of Jutland being noted to their consternation?
Help please.
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well i got an email saying it had now been amended and i saw the amended date, from the council rep dealing with it,they actually thanked me for pointing it out. its not unusual for the kids to be put in the workhouse temporarily either,and tbh i already knew they had been in there, people who were homeless and hungry often did that,adults used to refuse because of the awful conditions they endured there,my grandmother used to still have nightmares about it when she was an old lady. dunkirk is now part of boughton under blean parish and the church is closed and so is the school and was amalgamated with boughton. loads of homeless people lived in the woods around dunkirk,squatters and most of the local population descended from them , just put dunkirk in the normal search box on there, ive looked,because it also has a description of the last armed uprisng on english soil 1838 in which my cousin george branchett was killed and other cousins were killed or transported to australia. .as far as i know its still on faversham .org with date change. cornwell is a version of cornwall as far as i know and is a known romany name and quite a few on your list are tbh,. as for cromwell ,well people are mistaken saying he was a puritan because he didnt like them too much or quakers either.he was actually a congregationalist and i can absolutely assure you his name doesnt have any connection with cornwell , in fact cromwell is descended from williams a welshman from local welsh gentry who married thomas cromwells daughter and changed his name because it gave him an advantage , as you may or may not know thomas cromwell was henry the 8ths right hand man who enriched himself while lord chancellor and held manors and lands everywhere.but that family existed in medieval times and held lands in kent where i live and all over england,basically he was a thief ,and some of my mothers ancient family, elys of kennington descended from elys de otham were married into them (daughter) and in turn his daughter married hales whose line of viscounts ended at hales place hackington canterbury when his daughter and heir became a nun.im descended from the elys family of kent too,we used to own town place and the manor at throwley faversham kent. we sold it in 1631.and this cromwell owned nearby tunstall and hales came from same area. although obviously cromwell did work with the puritans he didnt like some of them. well just looked again,its on the faversham.org with amended date.just put dunkirk into main search box,when it comes up go down to ''places'' if jack was at dunkirk school he had to be of a certain age to be there so if he was born about 1900 then it had to be between 1900 and 1910/11? when was she with eli?when was he in the army? search service records. search workhouse records for that area. look on 1911 census. search parish relief records for the areas. failing all else write or email faversham .org and ask where they got the records from. can you actually prove your relationship or is it hearsay?in the meantime i will look in local census etc there was a poor house for boughton but part of the local union at faversham went up to near sittingbourne and one nearby at selling. but dunkirk isnt far from canterbury either, or blean village. dunkirk was a ''ville'' its definitely on there, like i said, there was probably one at blean or canterbury,or perhaps the mother was employed nearby on the farms because literally hundreds used to come down for the fruit picking then on to the hopping from london and many were travellers right up to about 1960,
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just a thought,i noticed that some kids from london at that period were sent to places outside london and at that time workhouses no longer teached them but sent them to public schools. dunkirk was part of the faversham union, sometimes kids were fostered out through other unions and this may be the case i believe now.you have to look in ancestry.uk or find my past for the years he was supposed to be in the workhouse.https://www.kentworkhouses.uk/kent-unions/faversham-union/ it states it in here. but but doesnt hold the records.
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Thanks for these. I shall get nothing further done before Sunday now as I am busy tomorrow, at Alexandra Palace Friday and have an exhibition Saturday.Will check the site out again on Sunday to see if Hanks stuff is posted again. Thanks for previous work.
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Haven't forgotten just been horrendously busy with a variety of matters. Need to get a grip on this.
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tbh dunkirk in the blean was a 5000 acre forest and was a vast squatter and gypsy settlement. also many came into the area for the fruit and hop picking seasons. the king family are related to us as a female elizabeth tong married a king. king is also a common gypsy name. as for your dna well ive also seen youve asked before on here redroger about gypsies, well i believe some of your other names are too. tbh.
Roblet, As above you suggest many of the names I am researching are of gypsy origin, with the exception of Burton (on my father's maternal side) and Ayres (my maternal grandfather, which I know to be gypsy) would you tell me which of the others are gypsy/traveller/Romany names? I believe Burton is probably NOT in this case, it is a widespread surname in Yorkshire and the East Midlands, one of whom I had dealings with as a councillor was certainly a gypsy, but many others equally aren't.
The names I am researching are drawn approximately equally on both sides of my tree, and if they go for my mother's side it will make a probable base for further research.
By the way I have had a Y chromsome DNA test and a Mt DNA test so both sides are covered.
My origin was shown as 15% British Isles, 84% Western Europe 1% East Africa, Indian or statistical noise. I was expecting a much more mixed picture, but apparently no trace of gypsy origins.
Thanks.
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Roblet, Do you have any further information for me please?
Roger