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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Friday 28 November 14 23:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I'm looking for the birth of Elizabeth Illidge, given as aged 7 in the 1851 (listed as Illage), aged 17 in 1861 (as Illidge), and aged 27 in 1871 (now married to John Tudor), born Aston-by-Sutton, Cheshire, all suggesting an 1843/44 birth.
Neither FreeREG, Ancestry nor FindMyPast offer a birth for 1843 or '44, but have one in MarQ 1842 and MarQ 1846, both Runcorn, but both seem out given the ages quoted on the censuses.
I've found a lot of Cheshire parish records on FindMyPast, Ancestry and FamilySearch, but surprisingly I can't find a baptism for Elizabeth (I have her marriage on 1 Oct 1865 and her burial on 10 Nov 1875), nor her parents marriage, John Illidge to a Sarah from Weaverham. Several trees on Ancestry suggest her surname was Sweetman but I can't find anything to confirm this.
I guess I could ask the GRO for a birth in 1844 to parents John and Sarah, so they'd look at 1843, '44 and '45, but I'm wondering if her birth wasn't registered.
Any suggestions or help more than welcome, thanks.
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A possibility?
Elizabeth Hillidge
March 1/4 1844
Runcorn Cheshire
vol 19 page 219
This one seems to have parents Ralph and Martha Hillidge in 1851 so not yours.
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You can rule one of them out
Elizabeth Illidge
Burial
27 Sep 1846
Aston-by-Sutton, Cheshire, England
Age: 0
Heather
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John Tudor and Elizabeth married 1865 St Peter Aston by Sutton
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk
There is a possible burial at the same church for Ann on Family Search
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQGX-59S
I think it's likely that the baptisms took place at the same church and as far as I can see they are not yet on line. :(
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Thanks all, sorry, done some more searching this morning using variations on the spelling!
Rolnora - thanks for the death of Ann, Elizabeth's sister, I hadn't found that before but it looks to be her :(. FindMyPast has the marriage image which says the Aston chapel, but I assume that's the same as St Peter's (or maybe it became St Peter's).
Crisane - I'm beginning to think that the Elizabeth Hillidge birth you found may be hers (though Ralph and Martha Illidge had an Elizabeth too, around 1844 - many children over nearly 30 years so possibly the years aren't too accurate, will try and check that).
Heatherjulie - thanks, that Elizabeth would appear to be the Mar 1846 birth, the burial shows her as 8 months.
The Mar 1842 births appear to be twins Elizabeth and Martha, daughters of John and Ann, baptised on 6 Jan 1842.
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There are some on line at Ancestry but I can't see John, Ann or Elizabeth
I can't find a way to browse the records for St Peter to see which dates are included ???
Can anyone help with that?
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Hi Rolnora, Family Search has a lot of records for Aston-by-Sutton without naming the church, but they seem to finish just when I need them! I found a lot of records there for the Illidge/Hillidge family while searching for Samuel in the other post you helped me with http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=706390.0
And FindMyPast has a number of them, with the actual images, but again, strangely, no baptisms for any of the children of John and Sarah. I didn't know about the son John until I found them as Ilage on the 1851 (thanks to your spelling suggestions on Samuel).
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I've been searching for St Peter Aston by Sutton as being the likeliest place for the baptisms and Family Search are saying they only have burials.
Have a look here,
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Aston_by_Sutton,_Cheshire.
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Fascinating background to the area, thanks Rolnora (and I've saved a copy of the picture of the chapel). So it was a chapelry until 1861, though Elizabeth's marriage in 1865 still says Aston chapel.
I've found baptisms on FamilySearch until 1837... https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3RP-7Q8
And using the images on FindMyPast, I've now scrolled through from 1839 to 1850 but not found John, Elizabeth or Ann. Unless mum Sarah was non-conformist, though Elizabeth married in the chapel. Nothing's easy is it, especially around the time of the start of registration?
Deirdre
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No it's not easy but it is satisfying when you finally get there ;D
I'm going to have to leave it now, need to go out but I will have another go when I get back. :)
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Crisane - I'm beginning to think that the Elizabeth Hillidge birth you found may be hers (though Ralph and Martha Illidge had an Elizabeth too, around 1844 - many children over nearly 30 years so possibly the years aren't too accurate, will try and check that).
Ralph's daughter Elizabeth was married on 27 Dec 1861, age given as 19; hopefully this means the 1844 birth as Elizabeth Hillidge isn't her.
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No it's not easy but it is satisfying when you finally get there ;D
I'm going to have to leave it now, need to go out but I will have another go when I get back. :)
Thanks Rolnora, you've been a huge help. Will go for the cert based on Illidge/Hillidge in 1844, parents John and Sarah and see what happens.
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is this her ?...states b Dutton - I drive through Dutton regularly ...it is a small village outside Runcorn
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7K8-XJF
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you probably have this
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3RP-6HZ
John and Sarah with grandson George Tudor aged 5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBJS-CND
John and Sarah with grandson George Tudor aged 14
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X3BY-WZG
the death of Elizabeths brother aged 19
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQGX-59M
I will try and find his birth around 1838/39 to see if it names Sarahs maiden name
they had a son Joseph as well
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7K8-XV4
added
no joy - can`t find Sarahs maiden name or a marriage for John and Sarah ?
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Sorry posted this on your other thread by mistake.
I still haven't been out and was rushing :)
It will need some checking but could be a possible marriage.
Marriage 16 April 1838 Warrington
John Hildige birthdate 1814
Sarah Yarwood birthdate 1810
John's father Samuel.
Sarah's father Hugh
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Thanks Garstonite, I had the first three, but not Elizabeth's brother's death (only found out yesterday that she had a brother!). Not sure that Joseph is the same family though?
Rolnora, that marriage looks good :). The censuses suggest she was born around 1809-1811 in Weaverham (1851 and 1861). Not sure what it says in 1871 (maybe Whalcroft?) and not found them in 1881 yet (no doubt another funny spelling). John and Sarah died within 4 months of each other in 1882 having outlived all three of their (so far) known children.
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1881 Sarah says she is born in Watcroft ,Cheshire
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X3BY-WZG
http://ukga.org/england/Cheshire/towns/Whatcroft.html
maybe someone can find Sarah Yarwood b abt 1809 in Whatcroft ?
AA Routeplanner states Whatcroft to Weaverham is 9 miles
ADDED- Whatcroft is a town in Davenham Parish
here is Sarah Yarwood b 17th aug 1808
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMHH-1BP
so that marriage that Rolnora found is looking very likely to me ?
Sarah b Whatcroft
married Warrington = 16 miles apart ...
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If we can find them in 1841 as a couple with son John it will round it off nicely.
Then we've found everything census wise but still haven't found Elizabeth's baptism ???
Hopefully the marriage for John and Sarah is the correct one because Sarah Yarwood is very easy to trace and I'm betting that Deirdre has already been working on that one herself ;D
Genuki gives some info on Whatcroft
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/chs/whatcroft.html
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Thanks both, you're so kind to spend time on this :)
I tried every variation of Illidge I could think of last night looking for them in 1841 and 1881 but no luck. Also looked for Ann's birth registration but again nothing. It seems strange to find no baptisms or birth registrations for any of the children (and I guess there could be more children).
I have sent in an order to the GRO for Elizabeth's birth, looking for Elizabeth Illidge or variation born in Aston-by-Sutton in 1844 - so they'll look for 1843 to 1845 - with parents John and Sarah. Hope she was born in AbS as I have a feeling it said Dutton somewhere, though that looks fairly close. Takes a few weeks though :(
Thanks again for all the help, another brick wall may be on the way down... :)
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I've enjoyed this one and I do hope that when the cert arrives it's the correct one and that Sarah Yarwood is her mother :)
It would be really great if you could let us know the outcome :)
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I was in the process of typing a reply, apologising to garstonite for not spotting that he'd found John and Sarah in 1881 (as Illidge but ages were way out ::)) when my tablet battery ran out :-[
I certainly will let you know what happens with the birth certificate. I did look at cheshirebmd in case that would have been quicker and a better option with a query birth but I couldn't find her possible birth on there so went with the GRO.
Lovely sunny morning here (Cardiff) today; hope you all have a good day.
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I've just this minute found this one on FreeBmd
Births Mar 1844
Hillidge Elizabeth Runcorn 19 219
What do you think ?
Added it's also on Cheshire BMD
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I've just this minute found this one on FreeBmd
Births Mar 1844
Hillidge Elizabeth Runcorn 19 219
What do you think ?
Added it's also on Cheshire BMD
Hi rolnora, crisane found that one back in reply 2; I'm hoping it's the one otherwise her birth may not have been registered. I didn't find it on cheshirebmd though :-[
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Found it on Cheshire BMD now, think I was thrown by the mention of Frodsham ;D
Still can't find registration of younger sister Ann though, under any possible surname ::)
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Found 2 Sarah Yarwood baptisms with Hugh as father... not in Whatcroft though
- 4 Sep 1808 in Davenham and
- 3 Dec 1815 in Knutsford
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Hi, Deidre, given Whatcrofts position a baptism would most likely be in Davenham, but still possible at Knutsford. Look at GenukiUk for Parish information to see.
Regards Kathb
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Thanks Kath, will do; I've just found and printed out an old parish map to try and help too :)
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Hi Deirdre,
Apologies to both you and chrisane about the birth reg I got a bit carried away :-[
Don't know if it will help....the 1808 baptism for Sarah shows that the family residence was "Shipbrook". If you can find it on your map it might help.
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Thanks rolnora, will see what I can find (don't usually have much luck with maps though :-[)
Not getting too excited but IF it is the right Sarah, then the baptism record gives her father's parents too - not seen that before ;D
Edited to add: didn't look fully across the double page spread - it gives her mother's parents too and the townships for them all. Amazing detail 8)
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Isn't it just ;D
Have a look at this website it gives you more info than Family Search but it is cumbersome to use if your not used to it.You will find the family on it and if this Sarah turns out to be the correct one she has a sister Frances born Whatcroft in 1811, there may be more relations.
You will also find the Knutsford Sarah on it.
http://cgi.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/
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That looks a good site but will take some getting used to (as they all do ;D). I have ancestors in many counties but have to say that Cheshire has some of the best online records, including lots of images on FindMyPast.
Need to drag myself away from this fascinating topic now though and get to bed as I have an early start in the morning. But it's been a great weekend :)
Thanks again for all your help.
Deirdre
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Had the certificate yesterday, but it's the wrong one (first wrong one I've had :().
It's for Elizabeth Illidge, born 1842 in Frodsham to John and Ann.
I asked for Elizabeth Illidge (or variation) born around 1844 in Aston to John and Sarah. I was worried that she may not have been born in Aston (though she was living there in 1851), as the 1861 says Dutton, so maybe that was my mistake, though I do feel that as the mum was Ann it shouldn't have been sent.
Have emailed GRO to query it. Will see what they say and if no luck will order the Elizabeth Hillidge one, Runcorn 19 219, via Cheshire BMD, specifying John and Sarah.
Happy Christmas everyone :)
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Hi Deidre,
It's a shame it's the wrong one and I think you would be right to query it ::)
Hope you get it sorted soon and don't forget to let us know :)
Happy Christmas to you too :)
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Hi Deidre,
It's a shame it's the wrong one and I think you would be right to query it ::)
Hope you get it sorted soon and don't forget to let us know :)
Happy Christmas to you too :)
Hi Rolnora, I was so excited when the envelope arrived too ;D
Having specified 1844 I thought they only searched 1 year year either side. But this was 4th Jan 1842. It's almost as though they found the first Elizabeth Illidge and sent it....
Will let you know what they say, though I guess it'll be after Christmas now ::)
Deirdre
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GRO asked for the certificate back before they investigate/check so am waiting to hear from them.
Done a bit more searching and have found a baptism for an Elizabeth Hildage, parents John and Sarah, abode Dutton, at Little Leigh, on 6 August 1843 which looks good (but rules out the Elizabeth Hillidge birth in Q1 1844 19/219 :-\).
And there's an Anne Hildage baptism too, 5 July 1846, same parents, abode Dutton, which probably confirms it. Can't find a baptism for John (1840) though, although he appears to have been born in Aston-by-Sutton.
There's a burial for an Ellen Hildage in Little Leigh too, abode Dutton, age 3 months in March 1842, so may be another sister (but no baptism) :-\
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Reading back through the posts I can't see that we found the family on the 1841 census.
I've just found this, I don't think it will help much but if correct does place them living in Dutton, Great Budworth at the time the 1841 census was taken.
John Hilditch 25,Ag Lab, Sarah 30, and John 1
HO107 Piece 92
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Thanks Rolnora, I'd previously searched and searched for them in 1841 but nothing, so thanks for that. I guess with John there too and in Dutton, it more or less confirms the family.
Wonder if the GRO will find that birth (hope the March Q 1844 birth isn't a John and Sarah too!).
Not had such a complex surname before (especially as the options have 2 starting letters). ::)
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Yes the problem all along has been with the numerous variations of the surname ???
but you have made great strides with it.
Hopefully the birth reg, fingers crossed, will help clarify things a bit more.
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Thanks Rolnora, will let you know.
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Just had an email from the GRO, giving me a refund, saying the certificate was issued as the closest match to the info I supplied, BUT they only search 1 surname / spelling.
They did say that they'd done a further search for me :) but were unable to find an entry from the further details supplied in my letter sent when returning the certificate, so assume the Mar '44 entry (19/219) was either not Sarah or Dutton, or both.
Will order the Elizabeth Hildage Q3 1843 now as that seems to be likely given the Little Leigh baptisms ::)
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Just found the baptism of John Hilliage (yet another variation ::)), son of John and Sarah, of Dutton, parish of Great Budworth, at Daresbury on 26 August 1839. ;D
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Great find Deirdre
I can see it now, John a Labourer :)
I have just found at long long last ....
Elizabeth Hildage bapt 6 August 1843 at the Chapel of Little Leigh
Dau of John and Sarah
John's a labourer and residence is Dutton ;D
If this is the correct baptism then the 1843 Q3 birth reg for Elizabeth has surely got to be the correct one. ::)
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Could this be Ann ?
Anne Hildage bapt 6 July 1846 Chapel of Little Leigh.
Dau of John a labourer and Sarah
Residence Dutton. :)
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Morning Rolnora, yes looks like it :). Found them a few days ago - see reply 34 (sorry). And an Ellen burial.
Deirdre
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I was just typing a reply to apologise. :-[
Reading back through the posts I realized that you had already found them ???
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Not a problem Rolnora, masses of into on here. Your help has been massive and your 1841 find in Dutton convinced me they were the right family - obviously moved round a bit before settling in AbS. Will tie it all up when the certs arrive. Then go backwards with the Yarwoods :)
Have a good day, hopefully less windy than the the last few! Taking my daughter back to uni today so won't be online now til later.
Deirdre
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It sounds a bit calmer this morning.
Have a good day yourself and a safe journey.
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If you are looking for other siblings, Ellen (1816) married Peter Dunbabin at St. Laurence, Frodsham on 2 August 1840. She gives her address as Frodsham. Her father was Samuel, Labourer and one of the witnesses was Samuel, presumably her brother.
I also have a later marriage in my records. Mary Illidge, 22, daughter of John married John Thomas Dunbabin (grandson of Peter & Ellen) on 1 June 1905 at St. Peter, Aston. Clara Annie Illidge was a witness.
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Thanks Andrew, I had Ellen in my tree but not her husband or marriage. Are you related?
Deirdre
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No, not related, but I have a one-name study into the Dunbabin families. They are everywhere, but the earliest records are from the area around Warrington.
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OK, thanks Andrew :)
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The birth certificate arrived today.... Elizabeth Hildage, born 20 June 1843 at Dutton, parents John Hildage and Sarah, formerly Yarwood ;D
Fantastic, thanks to Rolnora and everyone here for their help, I wouldn't have found this without you.
PS: Just spotted that the subject is completely wrong ::)
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That's great news Deirdre ,
It took a little while but you got there. ;D
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Thanks Rolnora,
How do you record different spellings? I've noted the variations with the birth, baptism, census, marriage, death and burial entries on my tree but at the moment still have Elizabeth as Illidge (as I've known her for 2 years!). :-\
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Hi Deirdre,
It's a bit difficult knowing which one to use with so many variations of a surname and I'm sure we all use a different method.
For myself, I stick with the surname most familiar to me and then record each variation that I find in the notes section of my tree.
It works for me but someone else may well know a better way. :)
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Thanks Rolnora, think that's what I'll do, certainly for Elizabeth as she married as Illidge and her dad was baptised as John Illidge and his dad was Samuel Illidge. Maybe while they were in Aston-by-Sutton, Illidge was a known spelling - it does seem to be John moving around that has caused the variations ;D
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My one-name study involves loads of name changes, but it's by no means uncommon. I have found the surname of my paternal ggg gf recorded eight different ways, none of which matches mine.
Most software can't cope with changes of name. Some don't even cope when a woman marries. It took me a while to find something which worked for me. Unfortunately The Master Genealogist has just been discontinued. It lets you record the many variations, with dates for each. You can select (and change) the "primary" one.
Keep looking around - virtually all the packages offer a "try before you buy".
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Thanks Andrew, think I have 8 variations of Illidge (Illidge, Ilage, Illage, Ilige, Hilige, Hilage, Hiliage, Hilditch) :)
I've only got my tree on ancestry at the moment; have had trials of several software packages but none of them has jumped out at me so far!
Deirdre
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Hi there,
I am pretty certain our trees have crossed. I have been researching the Hillidges/Illidges of Aston-by-Sutton. I have found Elizabeths birth record on Ancestry. The details are born Jan-Feb-March 1844. Runcorn Vol 19, Page 219. Although parents Ralph and Martha are Illidges, Elizabeth was registered as Hillidge. Hope this helps. I have a lot more info on the Illidges of Aston ...let me know if you get stuck, v happy to help.
Kind regards
Christine
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Hi Christine, and welcome to RootsChat.
I guess the families are linked but my Elizabeth was eventually discovered registered as Hildage, born 20 June 1843 in Dutton, parents John and Sarah (nee Yarwood).
Deirdre
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:) Hi, thank you for the welcome, that's really nice. I'm sorry my suggestion didn't help. Dutton is just down the road from Aston so I suspect we may still have some connection. I have found the same person in my tree to have numerous spellings of Hillidge, Hildige, Hillage etc. My mum's family are now Hillidge's.
I've driven over to Aston today to have a look at the graves. The church is beautiful but many of the old gravestones have been removed or are so weathered they are unreadable. Still very much worth a visit.
Christine
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Hi Christine, the heading is a bit misleading but when I made the original post I believed she had been born in Aston; it was only later that I discovered she was born in Dutton. The rest of the family in aston seemed to spell the name as Illidge but I think her father travelled around the area before settling back in aston and this caused the variation in the spelling. Sadly Elizabeth died young and her daughter - my husband's ancestor - married and moved to south Wales so we have no actual connection to the area now.
Were all the Illidge / Hillidge families in Aston related? Not got access to my tree at the moment but just wondered if we are linked somehow. I think elizabeth's grandparents were Samuel and Elizabeth (Betty).
Deirdre
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Good Morning Deirdre,
Yes, I have Samuel Illidge (1792-1865) married to Elizabeth/Betty (nee Clark) in my tree. Joseph Illidge the younger brother of Samuel born 1795 and married to Elizabeth/Betty (nee Andrews) is my 3rd Great Grandfather. His son Thomas Hillidge (also spelled Hilditch) is my 2nd Great Grandfather. There are some Illidges in the Frodsham area too and I've found a link to them as well. I'm still working on the Hillidges at Aston so I'll let you know how I get on. Who was Elizabeth's father? So far I have John Illidge born 1813. Samuel married twice his second wife was Mary Hancock, they had a daughter Elizabeth too, but sadly she died only 2 weeks old followed by her mother Mary a week or so later.
I've found a couple of graves at Aston but I've not placed them in my tree yet. I'll find out how I can upload photos to Rootschat and send some over to you.
Kindest regards
Christine
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Morning Christine, how exciting. Might be easier to send photos by email so I'll send you my address by private message. Must go shopping shortly but will email you my illidges later.