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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Carlow => Topic started by: Phenmark on Thursday 04 December 14 13:50 GMT (UK)
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Hello Fellow Sufferers!
I am trying to ascertain my gg grandfather's point of origin in Ireland. Patrick McDonald (b. 1843-'47, depending upon which record is referenced), and lived in Fall River, Mass. between c. 1864-1890. (he died 3 Jun, 1890). He married Anna O'Brien. I am not sure if they were married in Ireland or Fall River. Her parents were listed as John and Catherine on Record of Death. She made have had a brother, Edward, as he is named as sponsor for their son in baptism record.
Anna died in 18881, and Patrick remarried to Eliza Cavanaugh in '87. Per the record for this 2nd marriage, his parents were Thomas and Sarah. They are also named as his parents on record of death.
I tracked down a naturalization record on familysearch which looks promising. It states his place of birth as Co. Carlow. No parish or townland mentioned.
I also believe Patrick was Catholic. He was a prominent member of the Ancient Order of Hibernians in Fall River.
According to rootsireland, Co. Carlow has many church records ready to go online, they just haven't pulled the trigger yet. I am hopeful that someone may have info on Thomas McDonald, his wife, Sarah (nee unknown), Patrick McDonald, and his wife, Anna O'Brien.
I would greatly appreciate any leads.
Thanks!
Steve
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Hi Steve, quick question. In the 1860 US census, Patrick appears living in Fall River, Mass with his family who are;
Daniel McDonald age 62 b. Ire
Johannah McDonald age 60 b. Ire
John McDonald age 30 b. Ire
Elisabeth McDonald age 23 b. Ire
Johannah McDonald age 24 b. Ire
Patrick McDonald age 17 b. Ire
Ella McDonald age 15 b. Ire
This appears to be the correct Patrick going by the info you provided. Do you think this is him?? Kim
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Hi Kim,
Thanks for replying!
For a while I was considering this Patrick, however, I'm fairly certain he is not my Patrick. I have Thomas and Sarah as my Patrick's parents. They are listed on the record of his 2nd marriage and on his record of death. I also believe my ancestor to have arrived c. 1864. The naturalization record I have provides this info. I realize that naturalization records are often falsely dated in order to prove a person's minority status on arrival. However, the Patrick in Daniel's family also shows up in the 1855 Mass. State census, so he had been in Fall River since he was a kid. I just don't see him as being my guy. I believe Daniels son, Patrick, married a Bridget, as I find them in later censuses in Fall River.
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Hi Steve, I'm wondering if these two may be related. In Providence, Rhode Island in the 1860 census appears a Sarah McDonald age 75 with a Matthew McDonald age 27. There are also 2 Thomas McDonalds who appear in the 1850 census in Providence, one with a son John age 22. There are quite a few other McDonalds who appear in the same area at the same time. It might be worth checking them out as Providence and Fall River are quite close to each other. If you look at the Tithe Applotment books 1814-1855, in 1824 a Thomas McDonald is found in Old Leighlin, Crlow and yet by the time Griffiths Valuation is taken 1848-1864, Thomas McDonald does not appear. So it is very possible by this time they have gone to the US maybe with father Thomas McDonald going first and Sarah folllowing. Kim
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Hi Kim,
Thank you for this. I'm going to check out the Providence leads. I did consider that Patrick may have lived somewhere else in New England before moving to Fall River. I don't know why, but I never thought of his father, Thomas and mother, Sarah moving here from Ireland. I just assumed he came alone, or with wife, Anna.
The thing I would question is, if the Naturalization petition I have for Patrick is even remotely accurate, he would not have arrived until 1864. Unless you're suggesting that Thomas came over early enough to be in the 1850 census, where you find him in Providence, and then sending for his wife and son. That could be possible.
Anyway, thank you! This has stoked my fire! I'm off to search. If you come up with anything else please advise.
Thanks!
Steve
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Hi, this may help. If you go onto the site rootsireland.ie they have a birth for Patrick McDonald son of Thomas Mcdonald of county Carlow if you fill in 1843 +/- 10 years. It is a pay per view site. The mother's name does not come up as sarah but many times a wife's name was not recorded on the birth. Let me know if this is any help, Kim
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Hi Kim,
Thanks for this! I didn't think Carlow had any online records on rootsireland. I will definitely check this out.
Thanks!
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Hi, this may help. If you go onto the site rootsireland.ie they have a birth for Patrick McDonald son of Thomas Mcdonald of county Carlow if you fill in 1843 +/- 10 years. It is a pay per view site. The mother's name does not come up as sarah but many times a wife's name was not recorded on the birth. Let me know if this is any help, Kim
That shows up as the baptism of a Patrick Mcdonald to a Thomas and "S" Mcdonald in Borris in 1839
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This is really interesting! I can't thank you enough for this info. I was tentative about the naturalization record being that of my Patrick, since there are a few in Fall River at that time. However, the other nat. papers of Patrick McDonalds all had either different occupations listed, or were naturalized after my Patrick's death. Finding a Thomas and "S" McDonald with a son Patrick really starts to firm things up! How concerned should I be about the birth year? The earliest birth I have for him is 1843. I know birth years can fluctuate greatly.Incidentally, I found the nat. record of Michael O'Brien, whom I believe to be a relative of Patrick's wife Anna (O'Brien). His nat record lists Carlow as well as place of birth.
Thanks again, guys!
Steve
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Hi, this may help. If you go onto the site rootsireland.ie they have a birth for Patrick McDonald son of Thomas Mcdonald of county Carlow if you fill in 1843 +/- 10 years. It is a pay per view site. The mother's name does not come up as sarah but many times a wife's name was not recorded on the birth. Let me know if this is any help, Kim
That shows up as the baptism of a Patrick Mcdonald to a Thomas and "S" Mcdonald in Borris in 1839
This is really interesting! I can't thank you enough for this info. I was tentative about the naturalization record being that of my Patrick, since there are a few in Fall River at that time. However, the other nat. papers of Patrick McDonalds all had either different occupations listed, or were naturalized after my Patrick's death. Finding a Thomas and "S" McDonald with a son Patrick really starts to firm things up! How concerned should I be about the birth year? The earliest birth I have for him is 1843. I know birth years can fluctuate greatly.Incidentally, I found the nat. record of Michael O'Brien, whom I believe to be a relative of Patrick's wife Anna (O'Brien). His nat record lists Carlow as well as place of birth.
Thanks again, guys!
Steve
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Hi, I would not be concerned that the record is dated 1839 as you will find with most Irish records that they seem to never come up as a date that matches other records you may have on the same person. They are generally speaking within a range of +/- 5 yrs but I have seen some out by as much as 15 years. The Irish are a race that gets perpetually younger. Kim
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Had a quick look on rootsireland and if you search;
Mcdonald children baptised 10 years either side of 1839 to a Thomas and Sa Mcdonald in Borris parish you get the following;
Patrick 1839
Andrew 1841
James 1837
John 1835
John 1835
Bernard 1844
Michael 1846
Mary 1849
No results using Sarah,just Sa.This is prob. a transcription error.
None of this is really definite but maybe worth a look.They only have transcriptions so mistakes can be very easy to make at times.Hard to beat seeing the originals.
Maybe none of the above is really of any use but worth a look if you decide to speculate a few euro. For the months sub. to be worthwhile you would really need to have a few to research
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Noland01
This keeps getting better. I wanted to hold off on subscribing but I can't see any reason why, after this info. So much of it is jibing with my info. Thanks so much!
Steve
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Hi, I would not be concerned that the record is dated 1839 as you will find with most Irish records that they seem to never come up as a date that matches other records you may have on the same person. They are generally speaking within a range of +/- 5 yrs but I have seen some out by as much as 15 years. The Irish are a race that gets perpetually younger. Kim
Thanks Kim, I had the feeling I shouldn't be too worried about that. Thanks again.
Steve
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Hi
I just checked that record. The mother is listed as Sally Neil. I'm not sure where you see just "Sa".
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Hi
I just checked that record. The mother is listed as Sally Neil. I'm not sure where you see just "Sa".
I was using "S" as mothers name which gave those results as did "Sa" but not Sarah.
You can search using part of a christian name and keep adding letters until you get a full name.This can sometimes eliminate certain people or results.
For example searching for a "Paul Murphy" you will get a result when you use P Murphy but this will include all Patrick's ,Peter's, etc etc.Using "Pa" eliminates Peter but not Patrick Murphy's.
Then using "Pau" should give you his christian name unless another name starts with
"Pau" (are there some?)
Basically a guessing game.
Not a great explanation I will admit.
Anyways did you look at the transcription and do you think it might be the family you are looking at ?
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I'm not too sure yet. I saved the record, but as I am looking for Sarah, and this one was Sally, I don't know what to think. Per your explanation, should I try just "S"?
Thanks for helping. I will post again soon!
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I'm not too sure yet. I saved the record, but as I am looking for Sarah, and this one was Sally, I don't know what to think. Per your explanation, should I try just "S"?
Sarah has many variants i.e. searching with just "S" will give ANY name beginning with "S"
Variants - Sarah, Sara, Sally, Una, Clara................the list goes on
Annie
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I'm not too sure yet. I saved the record, but as I am looking for Sarah, and this one was Sally, I don't know what to think. Per your explanation, should I try just "S"?
Thanks for helping. I will post again soon!
If its definitely Sarah then maybe its not the correct family.
Think Sally is a derivation of Sarah though?
Know in my own family and others I have looked at ,people weren't as exact or fussy as to what exactly was on the official record in the 19th century and even well into this one.
For example my gran used both Ellen and Eileen as her christian name whilst interchanging Mary and Maria as her second name whilst also using or dropping the "O" abbreviation in her surname.My other gran was born Mcdonnell but used Mcdonald in latter years.
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Is Sally a form of Sarah?
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This is getting good! I just found this.
http://www.behindthename.com/name/sally
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Is Sally a form of Sarah?
I posted variants of Sarah earlier..........yes Sally is a form of Sarah ;)
Annie
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Is Sally a form of Sarah?
I posted variants of Sarah earlier..........yes Sally is a form of Sarah ;)
Annie
Thanks Annie!
I am pretty excited tonight. It looks as though I may have found my grandfather's paternal townland! I am nearly certain that the "Sally" is Sarah. As a matter of fact, I found another child born to Thomas and Sarah that actually has the name Sarah as mother, instead of Sally!
Although I still don't know where Patrick married Anna O'Brien, I found an Ann Brien, baptized in the same parish (Borris) as Patrick McDonald. They may even have the same address. Patrick's parents are at Rahana, and Anna's are at Raheen. Could this just be a transcription error?
The first names of both sets of parents on the baptisms agree with first names given on both Patrick's and Anna's death records in Fall River, Mass.
Thanks everyone for the invaluable pointers and tips. If ever you need a lookup on the South Shore of Massachusetts, let me know! I also have access to the archives in Boston.
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Not sure how accurate this is but a tree on An*****y has:
Patrick McDonald
Birth: Abt 1843 - Ireland
Marriage: 24 Nov 1887 - Fall River, Massachusetts, USA
Death: 3 Jun 1890 - Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts, USA
Spouse: Anna (Ann) O'Brien
Annie
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I also found this:
Peter McDonald
Marriage Date: 17 Oct 1864
Marriage Place: Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA
Spouse: Ann O'Brien
Annie
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Hi Steve,
Not sure how accurate this is but a tree on An*****y has:
Patrick McDonald
Birth: Abt 1843 - Ireland
Marriage: 24 Nov 1887 - Fall River, Massachusetts, USA
Death: 3 Jun 1890 - Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts, USA
Spouse: Anna (Ann) O'Brien
Annie
Hi Annie,
That tree is either mine or my cousin's. We collaborate. The 1887 marriage is Patrick's 2nd. Anna O'Brien died in 1881. Interesting about the Peter and Ann in Cambridge. I have definitely checked it. I'll have to go back and look, but I think I found this couple on later censae, still in Cambridge.
Thanks again!
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Certainly confusing...................date for 2nd marriage but naming his 1st wife as spouse?
I only "highlighted, copied & pasted" the info. ???
Annie
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Hi Annie,
I agree, that is weird. I think it names Annie as spouse because the descendants in the tree are hers. I entered the second marriage as a life fact, so I guess ancestry just treats that as it would any other event, such as residence, or census.
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I think it names Annie as spouse because the descendants in the tree are hers. I entered the second marriage as a life fact, so I guess ancestry just treats that as it would any other event, such as residence, or census.
Did you attach the marriage date to the correct wife? (Just incase you made an error) :P
If so, you would think ancestry would be advanced enough to make sure correct details show for correct person ??? ::)
Annie
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I thought I would summarize where I am now in view of the recent Carlow records available at rootsireland. I will conclude with some questions that have kept coming to mind as I have assimilated everything. I'd first like to thank all of you who offered their time and experience in helping me dig into my past. I am very grateful for your help.
I will try to summarize as clearly as possible what I have so far.
My family has always believed that my g-grandfather, John P. MacDonald (1876-1926), was of Scotland origin. However, when I started my research years ago, it quickly became clear that his father, Patrick MacDonald, was born in Ireland. Both the 1870 and'80 census of Fall River, Mass. indicated this. As a matter of fact, his obituary states he was a prominent member of the AOH in Fall River! Patrick was married to Anna (Anne, Annie) O'Brien, also of Ireland. John P. was born in Fall River. I obtained a copy of his baptism and it names Edward and Maria O'Brien as Godparents. An interesting note is the fact that John P. himself may have started the Scotland theory, as he puts his father, Patrick's place of birth as Scotland on his WWI draft reg.
Anyway, Annie died in 1881 and her parents were named as John and Catherine on the record of death. Both the 1880 & 1870 census have Catharine living with Patrick and Annie. I found an obituary for Catharine O'Brien in 1889, which states the funeral was at her son, Michael's house in Fall River. Both the 1870 & 1880 census have Michael O'Brien and family living on the same street as Patrick and Annie.
Patrick remarried in 1887 to Eliza O'Neil (widow of Patrick Cavanaugh).
I located a naturalization record for Patrick McDonald, laborer (his occupation on both censuses and city directories) on familysearch. His birthplace was named as County Carlow. There being several Patrick MacDonalds living in Fall River at the time, I systematically eliminated all other Naturalization records. No other laborers with that name from Fall River were naturalized during his lifetime. Then I found a nat. record for Michael O'Brien from Fall River (mason), born in County Carlow.
Patrick died in 1890. His parents were named as Thomas and Sarah. These are also the names on both his marriage intention to Eliza Cavanaugh and the record of marriage to the same. That brings me to the newly issued Carlow church records. The first thing I checked was a bap. record suggested by 2 listers on this board. Sure enough, I found a Patt, b. 1839 to Thos. MacDonald and Sally Neil, Borris, Carlow.
I then found Anne Bryan, of John Bryan and Catherine Doyle. I subsequently located several siblings of Patrick and Anne, all of the same parish. Edward and Michael were 2 of her brothers. Incidentally, I found the marriage of an Edward O'Brien to Catherine Doyle in Fall River as well. It is interesting that all these names are in close proximity to my ancestors in Fall River.
So, right now, I am optimistic that I have struck gold. Here are some questions.
First, I have really tried to find other records of baptism on rootsireland by eliminating Carlow and doing a search with the same info, and come up with no results for Patrick, father Thomas, mother Sarah. I have tried with just the father's name, and just the mother's, and any variants. The only results are the ones I found in Borris, Carlow.
With Annie O'Brien, I get more results across all counties. However, I would imagine the one in Borris would be the likely one. As I stated, her parents and brothers all come up in that parish. Please let me know your thoughts on the likelihood that I have come across something worth considering.
Was it common for emigrants to go to England before the States? The reason I ask is because I simply cannot find a marriage for Patrick and Annie. However, the Michael O'Brien of Carlow living next to them in Fall River had a son born in England. The rest of his children were born in Mass.
Patrick and Annie's firstborn, Sarah, was listed as being born in Mar, 1870 Fall River on the census, and her later death cert. But there is no civil birth record. I realize that is a common problem. I've run into that a lot. I just wonder if she was born before Patrick and Annie emigrated.
Also, the name Bryan. Is it synonymous with O'Brien?
Are Raheen and Rahana synonymous (addresses given).
Finally, any ideas on why my g-grandfather John P. MacDonald started naming his father's place of birth as Scotland? I know anti-Irish sentiment was rampant in the 19th century, but it looks as though he started listing Scotland much later in life.
I apologize for the length of this post. Any info warmly appreciated.
Thanks again
Steve
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Quick reply!!
The records you found would be worth considering as they seem to tally with other things you found.Very hard to say if definite though.
With Irish records sometimes not having a lot of detail plus gaps etc in records tracing people can sometimes be at times a matter of educated guesswork and not an exact science.
Esp. when the names involved are such common ones.
Rathanna and Raheen(darragh) are both townslands in Borris parish.
Have you tried Griffiths Valuation or even the census of 1901/1911 to see if any of the family remained in Ireland?
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
O Brien and Bryan and both pronounced the same and whilst O Brien would be much more common in Ireland would think that the Bryan spelling would be more used in the UK and USA.Thats just my opinion though.
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Some Irish emigrants did travel to England before embarking on long voyage to United States and Australia. I do not know the exact reason for this, but perhaps cost was a factor.
Some of the Migrants got work in England awaiting Emigrant Ship.
I think that in Ireland that some people only had fare to get to England, then got work in England to save for the Emigrant Ship fare.
If mother was close to giving birth, she may have preferred to be on land for the birth.
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... Patrick and Annie's firstborn, Sarah, was listed as being born in Mar, 1870 Fall River on the census, and her later death cert. But there is no civil birth record. I realize that is a common problem. I've run into that a lot. I just wonder if she was born before Patrick and Annie emigrated. ...
Have you checked the female McDonald Fall River birth in 1869? parents Patrick (laborer) and Ann both born Ireland
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FXZK-SPQ
more details on death record: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7L9-CM2
There's also a death for a child Catherine in 1861 so perhaps more than one couple Patrick McDonald/Ann O'Brien:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7P8-Y4Z
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Thanks for your replies!
Yes, I actually have looked at, and ruled out the female child born 1869, and yes, there was another Patrick McDonald and Anne O'Brien with a large family in Fall River at that time. They were married in Lowell, Mass. in 1853. I have been able to differentiate them from my family by his occupation (wool sorter) and address in the Fall River directories. They are also much older than mine.
I attribute the child who was born 1869 ( and died-she was stillborn) and Catherine to the older Patrick and Anne because the address given for both children on death cert match the address of wool sorter Patrick in that year's directory. There was another child, Ellen, born and died 1867 to parents of the same name, who are in my tentative folder, because the address given cannot be verified by city directory.
I checked the censuses and Griffith's but came up with nothing.
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I just noticed something. I have 11 children born to John O'Brien & Catharine Doyle between the years 1837-1846, all in Rahana and Knockroe, Borris. I see Edward, born in 1837, 2 years before John and Catherine's marriage. Why the earlier birth? Different couple? Any ideas welcome.
Thanks!
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Hi Steve, I came across a couple of bits and think they may be people you are looking for.
Marriage:
23 February 1808
John Brien (cert) and Catharine Byrne
married in St Mullins
Birth:
19 Dec 1808
Biddy Brien
parents: John and Catharine Brien
born in St Mullins
The St Mullins records of this time period are either missing or illegible, so there may be other children born there during this time period. In my own research in the area (as I come from Byrne and (O') Brien stock, I have found that many times family can be found in both the St Mullins and Borris parish registers as they are very close as the crow flies. Catharine's family were probably from St Mullins and hence she married there. We could even be distant relations. Hope this helps, Kim
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Hi Steve, I was looking at Borris parish records and noted that the Thomas McDonald who appears in those records with Sally Rice as wife when children are born, was also noted earlier on as being married to Mary Kavanagh and residing in Raheen townland then too. If you believe this to be the correct Thomas. If this is the correct Thomas his marriage to Sarah/Sally may be just noted in a parish register as he may have come to the marriage with young children as he seems to have had some children with Mary as well as Sarah. Kim
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Hi Steve, I came across a couple of bits and think they may be people you are looking for.
Marriage:
23 February 1808
John Brien (cert) and Catharine Byrne
married in St Mullins
Birth:
19 Dec 1808
Biddy Brien
parents: John and Catharine Brien
born in St Mullins
Hi Kim,
This is interesting. I was following John Bryan and Catherine Doyle. They were married in Borris, 23 Jan, 1839. Then I have an Ann Bryan, bap. 4 Aug, 1839 to John Bryan and Catherine Doyle at Rahanna (Ann O'Brien is the wife of my Pat. McDonald). I found 8 other baptisms with John Bryan (Brien) and Catherine Doyle as parents, most name address as Rahana. The eldest was Michael bap. 1837 ( this stumps me, because he is born before parents married). I am almost led to believe their was another couple with the same names in Borris at that time. I have 2 baptisms in 1846 with parents Catherine Doyle and John Bryan. One address is Knockroe, (Moses) the other is Rahana (Catherine).
Anyway, it's not much to go on, but Annie O'Brien's parents were named as John and Catherine on her record of death in Fall River.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks!
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Hi Steve, I was looking at Borris parish records and noted that the Thomas McDonald who appears in those records with Sally Rice as wife when children are born, was also noted earlier on as being married to Mary Kavanagh and residing in Raheen townland then too. If you believe this to be the correct
Hi Kim,
I don't find a Sally Rice when I search. I have been tracking Thomas McDonald and Sally Neil, married 24 Apr 1834. All baptisms I find with them as parents list address as Raheen.
Thanks,
Steve
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Hi Steve, I was looking at the Borris parish registers online on county Carlow genealogy. I do have transcribed the marriages for Borris from 1792 onwards and also the records of St Mullins. I think you may be experiencing a bit of my question which parents do you go with? As to Michael's birth in 1837, I will be going over to the National Library next week and can look at 1837 parish registers for Borris to see what it says if anything about birth of Michael. Do you happen to know month he was baptised? Kim
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Hi Kim,
Thanks for your help. Michael Bryan was bap. 24 Aug 1837 to John and Catherine (Doyle), Rahana, Borris, according to record on rootsireland. As I mentioned, there is also a record of marriage from 1839, Borris, which appears to be for his parents. I'm assuming one of the dates was erroneously transcribed. That said, it is somewhat overwhelming dealing with so many "same names". For instance, there is also a record of marriage from 1831 for a John Brien and Catherine Doyle, address Leighlinbridge! I have adopted the attitude of really staying within parish limits (in my case, Borris) to stay on track. Of course this may prove to be the wrong way to go, as I have never been to Ireland! Someday.......!
I have been pretty fortunate, as all the McDonalds have been found in Raheen, and most of my O'Briens (Bryan, Brien) have been in Rahana. These 2 families hinge on Patrick MacDonald and Anna O'Brien's marriage, a record of which I have yet to find! I just feel as though they must have lived nearby each other, and their records of birth that are on rootsirland have the right parents' names.
Thanks again for all your help.
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Thanks for your replies!
Yes, I actually have looked at, and ruled out the female child born 1869, and yes, there was another Patrick McDonald and Anne O'Brien with a large family in Fall River at that time. They were married in Lowell, Mass. in 1853. I have been able to differentiate them from my family by his occupation (wool sorter) and address in the Fall River directories. They are also much older than mine.
I attribute the child who was born 1869 ( and died-she was stillborn) and Catherine to the older Patrick and Anne because the address given for both children on death cert match the address of wool sorter Patrick in that year's directory. There was another child, Ellen, born and died 1867 to parents of the same name, who are in my tentative folder, because the address given cannot be verified by city directory.
I checked the censuses and Griffith's but came up with nothing.
Have just had a quick look on Griffiths Valuation and there is a Thomas Mcdonnell listed as holding 6 acres and 4 perches from Henry Newton.
Worth a look as sometimes Mcdonald and Mcdonnelll were used interchangebly.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&PlaceID=177141&county=Carlow&barony=Idrone,%20east&parish=Kiltennell&tow
Also on the 1901 census a Michael Macdonald listed with family in Raheendarragh Rathanna.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Rathanna/Raheendarragh/1039918/
Above is assuming the family you are interested in were from Raheendarragh, Rathanna and not Raheenkyle, Rathanna.
Actually looking at Raheenkyle there are 2 Mcdonnell families there as well on Griffiths
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Thanks! I am a bit confused about the Raheen locality. I was under the impression that Raheen and Rathana were towns within Borris parish. The records I am looking at (baptism and marriage) from rootsireland mostly have either Raheen (McDonalds) or Rahana (Bryan, Brien) as townland and Borris as Parish/District. The Michael McDonald census you linked me to looks pretty promising. Would he and his family still be in what was considered Borris parish during the census?
I am trying to ascertain which, if any, of Patrick's siblings stayed in Ireland, particularly Borris parish. Am I thinking right?
Thanks again. Any thoughts welcomed gratefully.
Steve
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Thanks! I am a bit confused about the Raheen locality. I was under the impression that Raheen and Rathana were towns within Borris parish. The records I am looking at (baptism and marriage) from rootsireland mostly have either Raheen (McDonalds) or Rahana (Bryan, Brien) as townland and Borris as Parish/District. The Michael McDonald census you linked me to looks pretty promising. Would he and his family still be in what was considered Borris parish during the census?
I am trying to ascertain which, if any, of Patrick's siblings stayed in Ireland, particularly Borris parish. Am I thinking right?
Thanks again. Any thoughts welcomed gratefully.
Steve
Rathanna is a townsland and a village(well just a few houses and a church really).Raheen is a townsland.
Townsland is basically an area of from 50 to 1000 acres of land with anything from none to 50 houses present.Basically its the smallest division of area in rural Ireland.
Parish in the sense you are using is the Roman Catholic parish of Borris Carlow.It contains 3 churches ie Borris,Ballymurphy and Rathanna.
Another map.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,676361,650411,4,3
Use this and you can find both Rathanna and Raheen to the East of Borris village.
Not a great explanation I will admit but people in Ireland are so familar with the concept of townslands that we rarely think about it.
http://www.borrisparish.ie/map/
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Actually, it's townland not townsland. This is a great site for finding details of townlands and civil parishes anywhere in Ireland-
http://www.thecore.com/seanruad/
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Rathanna is a townsland and a village(well just a few houses and a church really).Raheen is a townsland.
Townsland is basically an area of from 50 to 1000 acres of land with anything from none to 50 houses present.Basically its the smallest division of area in rural Ireland.
Parish in the sense you are using is the Roman Catholic parish of Borris Carlow.It contains 3 churches ie Borris,Ballymurphy and Rathanna.
Another map.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,676361,650411,4,3
Use this and you can find both Rathanna and Raheen to the East of Borris village.
Not a great explanation I will admit but people in Ireland are so familar with the concept of townslands that we rarely think about it.
http://www.borrisparish.ie/map/
This helps clarify. I'll check out the maps.
Thanks again!
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I have found 2 marriages on roots Ireland. The first: John Bryan & Catherine Doyle-Married 01-Feb-1831 Parish / District: Leighlinbridge
The second: John Bryan & Catherine Doyle- Married: 23-Jan-1839
Parish / District: Borris
Is it possible that the children of the couple in Leighlinbridge Parish to have been baptized in Borris parish? I ask because I have a Michael Bryan baptized Borris 1837 , address Rahana. I'm wondering if he is son of Leighlibridge couple.
I have 10 baptism records with these names as parents. I notice that some addresses are Knockroe, the majority are Rahana (Ratana, Rathana). Is the couple married in Leighlinbridge likely to be on bap records with address as Knockroe, and the couple married in Borris on bap records with Rahana address? Vice=versa?
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Hi Steve, I was looking at Borris parish records and noted that the Thomas McDonald who appears in those records with Sally Rice as wife when children are born, was also noted earlier on as being married to Mary Kavanagh and residing in Raheen townland then too. If you believe this to be the correct Thomas. If this is the correct Thomas his marriage to Sarah/Sally may be just noted in a parish register as he may have come to the marriage with young children as he seems to have had some children with Mary as well as Sarah. Kim
Thanks!
I just came across the bap. records that you had mentioned for children of Thomas MacDonald and first wife, Mary Kavanaugh. It appears they had a son, James bap.1827 who may have died, as he and second wife, Sally Neil had a James in 1837. I am going on the assumption that the Raheen given as the address on practically all his children's bap records is Raheendarragh, civil parish of Kiltennell. All the bap records give Borris as parish/district, which I assume is the RC parish.
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Have just had a quick look on Griffiths Valuation and there is a Thomas Mcdonnell listed as holding 6 acres and 4 perches from Henry Newton.
Worth a look as sometimes Mcdonald and Mcdonnelll were used interchangebly.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&PlaceID=177141&county=Carlow&barony=Idrone,%20east&parish=Kiltennell&tow
Also on the 1901 census a Michael Macdonald listed with family in Raheendarragh Rathanna.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Rathanna/Raheendarragh/1039918/
Above is assuming the family you are interested in were from Raheendarragh, Rathanna and not Raheenkyle, Rathanna.
Actually looking at Raheenkyle there are 2 Mcdonnell families there as well on Griffiths
Hi Noland01,
I was looking into the 2 Thomas McDonnells (McDonald) in Raheendarragh & Raheenkyle listed in Griffith's. I think they are the same guy. The original shows him renting a house, land and "offices" in Raheendarragh, and renting land only in Raheenkyle. Both listings name Henry Newton as landlord.
It's also interesting to note that some of his children's baptism records have his address as Raheens. Perhaps to indicate the fact that he rented in both townlands?
I want to thank you for pointing me towards Griffith's . I am learning how to read the originals. This site is the best resource I have found! You, Kim and everyone who replied have really brought me a long way toward solid answers.
Thanks again,
Steve
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As regards the address given on baptism's etc .Raheen could have been used for either or both townland's of Raheendarragh and Raheenkyle.
Unsure if either or both of these places are used with their shortened versions ie Raheen but its common everyday practice in many places to shorten some townlands names unless using them in an official capacity.Would think it likely that mid 19th century parish priests were not keeping records for posterity,rather just filling in the registers as best they could.
Can ask someone from Borris for you if Raheen commonly refers to either or both places.
My own townland has 2 spellings, both of which are used in an official capacity today and many other local ones are used with a shortened version at times.
See in one post you wonder if Borris refers to the RC parish which I think it does .Parish boundaries are in most cases unchanged for 100's of years so if you refer to the present RC parish website for Borris you will see a map which I would assume would have been the same as in early 19th century.
Civil parishes are gone as regards record keeping/administration but as far as I know they correspond to the parishes still used by C of I.
You will find a John Mcdonald listed in the Tithe Applotment books for Raheendarragh civil parish of Kiltinnell Co.Carlow.They are dated 1823-1837.
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?county=Carlow&parish=Kiltennell&townland=Raheendarragh&search=Search
Another link that might help with Carlow in a general sense
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlcar2/Records_index.htm
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Thanks Noland1,
If you could ask about the shortened version, I would certainly appreciate it. I found the John you mentioned in Raheendarragh in Tithe Appointments, as well as Thomas in Raheenkyle. I have been studying the maps and am struck by the close proximity of the townlands I am interested in- Raheendarragh, Raheenkyle, and Rathanna. I am also finding some of the names of sponsors of Thomas McDonald and Sarah Neil's children in Griffith's, all in these towns.
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Hi Steve, I was looking at Borris parish records and noted that the Thomas McDonald who appears in those records with Sally Rice as wife when children are born, was also noted earlier on as being married to Mary Kavanagh and residing in Raheen townland then too. If you believe this to be the correct Thomas. If this is the correct Thomas his marriage to Sarah/Sally may be just noted in a parish register as he may have come to the marriage with young children as he seems to have had some children with Mary as well as Sarah. Kim
Hi Kim,
May I ask if you got the "Rice" surname directly from the parish record? I'm wondering because I only come up with Sally Neil married to Thomas, no Sally Rice. Then again, I am reading a transcribed record on rootsireland. I do think he was married to Mary Kavanagh before Sally.
Thanks for all your help.
Steve
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Hi Steve, In my transcribing of the Borris parish records I can see your problem. In Ireland because of the naming patterns you can have several cousins with the exact same name in the same parish/townland. After looking for the record of Michael baptism, I'm afraid there is no further help in terms of differentiating which of 2 sets of parents he belongs to. I am going to give you the transcribed register entries for all the children:
Edward
bapt. 2 June 1836 Rahana
parents:John Bryan-Cath Doyle
sponsors:John Cox-Margt Murray
Michael
bapt.24 Aug 1837 Rahana
parents:John Bryan-Kity Doyle
sponsors:Art Doyle-Citty Mas---
Anne
bapt: 4 Aug 1839 Rahana
parents:John Bryan- Kitty Doyle
sponsors: John Jordin- Mary Murphy
If you could find if Art Doyle is a brother to your Catherine that would let you know which are yours, as you know there are 2. I would stick with parish lines tho'.
For marriages there were these:
14 Feb 1833
Thomas McDonald and Mary Neil
witnesses:James Carty-Sally Neil
24 April 1834
Thomas McDonald and Sally Neil
witnesses:Patt McDonald-Betty Neil
5 Feb 1833
John McDonald and Biddy Nolan
witnesses:Thomas McDonald-Betty Neil
I would say that John is your Thomas' brother and that Sally,Betty and Mary are probably all sisters. Both your Thomas and the other Thomas resided in Rahana and had children there. They are probably 1st cousins and their fathers brothers. I found one birth in 1797 for a Thomas McDonald but I think it may be a bit early so I am going back to the records on Monday as I have only gotten through to 1805. If I come across Thomas or Sally/Sarah's birth I will let you know. Just to show you how closely the three families seem to be linked;
baptism:
Matthew
14 April 1839
parents:James Brian + Cath McDonald
sponsors:Tom & Ellen Neil
These are complete baptisms for Tom McD's kids if you don't have them.
3 May 1835 John
Thomas McDonald-Sally Neal
sponsors:John McEvoy-Mary Neal Raheen
17 Feb 1837 James
Thomas McDonald-Sally Neil
sponsors:James O Neil- Mary Headon Cranagh
29 June 1839 Patt
Thomas McDonald-Saly Neil
sponsors:Michael McCormick-Ellen Flood Raheen
24 Oct 1841 Andrew
Thomas McDonald-Sarah Neil
sponsors:Andrew Neil-Cath Neil Raheen
21 January 1844 Bernard
Tom McDonald-Saly Neil
sponsors;James Gahen-Cath Tool Raheens
10 May 1846 Michael
Thos McDonald-Saly Neil
sponsors:Pierce Hayden-Mary Neil Raheens
8 April 1849 Mary
Thos McDonald-Sally Neil
sponsors:James Hayden-Mary Somers Raheen
If I may also say do not discount multiple spellings of the names as most people during this time were illiterate and their names were spelt by whichever parish priest was on when each child was baptised. I have seen the same name listed back to back and spelt three different ways by same priest. In parish registers O'Brien is also Brien/Brine/Brian/Bryan and for McDonald you can have McDonel/McDonnel/McDonnell/McDonal.Lastly Neil/Neal/Nail/O'Neil/Neill etc etc.
I will continue to look through the registers to see if I can find more for you,like birth for Thomas and Sally. If you have anything specific you want let me know its cheaper than rootsireland. Kim
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Hi Kim,
I was thinking exactly as you on all those points. I just last night was checking out Arthur Doyle. His father comes up as Jery on rootsireland bap. I couldn't definitively link him and my Catherine (Doyle) as siblings. I am looking at a Terence Doyle who may be her brother as well.
As for MacDonald's, I was also thinking, as you, that my Thomas had a cousin with the same name.
I think my Thomas may have been married to Mary Kavanaugh in Raheen (Rathanna) and then married my Sarah (Sally) Neil (1834). I am aware of another Thomas in Tomduff who married Mary Neil, whom, as you say, is likely Sarah's sister.
To say I appreciate your help would be an understatement!
Thanks so much, if you come across anything else, please let me know.
Steve
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Hi again Steve, found some more info for you.
Marriage:
September 1865
West Derby,Lancashire,England
Patrick McDonald + Ann Bryan
Births:
Sarah June 1866
Sarah December 1866
Sarah Catherine December 1869
all three births took place in West Derby. If you want to look at other births in West Derby,Lancashire,England as there are quite a few and may have been child/children born to them that subsequently died google freeBMD and use the search facility.
Also found;
1861 England census
Ann Bryan
age:21
born @ 1840
Wexford,Ireland
occupation:servant
in Dun household
in West Derby,Lancashire,England
(I know it says Wexford but may be just goof.This is why they married in West Derby as it was the bride's parish)
Patrick McDonald
age:23
born @ 1838
Ireland
occupation:servant
in Crowley household
Liverpool,Lancashire,England
or
Patrick McDonald
age:21
born @ 1840
Ireland
occupation:lodger
in Greedy household
in Ardwick,Lancashire,England
one of these Patricks is probably yours.Hope this helps,Kim
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Hello Kim,
Whoa! I just last week received this very record of Marriage for Patrick and Ann Bryan from West Derby from the GRO! I've been very excited, as I feel I have finally found out where they were married. I didn't even think to check the 1861 census!
I had for some time been thinking they were married before travelling to America. I also received a copy of the parish record (Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception) in Liverpool from a kind respondent on the Lancs query board. Here are my questions:
First, both records (church and civil) I have indicate the date of marriage was 13 Aug 1865. I notice you have Sept 1865. Is this just because that was the quarter the marriage was registered in?
Secondly, I posted twice on the Lancashire board seeking info on any children that may have been born to them. All replies basically said there were no records they could find ( I asked for a time frame 1865-1870).
In the 1870 census, Fall River, MA, they have 1 child-Sarah! On that census it says she was born in Mass. in March of 1870. I have always suspected there were child(ren) born between 1865 and 1870. May I ask how you found all those Sarahs? Do the records you saw have Patrick and Ann as parents?
I am so glad you found this! You say freebmd is what I should check?
Thanks Kim!!
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Kim,
I just found the birth index entry you mentioned on familysearch for Sarah Catherine McDonald. This is intriguing as Sarah is Patrick's mother and Catherine is Ann's mother. I just realized something-did you do a search for Sarahs? I would imagine you would not know the names of parents on the actual record. If I were to find a possible record of birth, could I order it from the GRO?
Thanks!
Steve
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Hi Steve,
I'd say that the marriage of Anne + Patrick was probably recorded in the Sept-Dec quarter as on the BMDfree index everything is recorded by quarters. As to the free bmd index I just inserted name McDonald into search 1865-1869 yrs and West Derby place. I zeroed in on Sarah as she is the only child you mentioned prior to 1870. The only thing about the bmd index is parents are not listed. But I would say you could possibly get it from the GRO if you received the marriage copy from there.
There are 65 children on the FreeBMD index born in West Derby between March 1866 and Dec 1869. I did check and it looks as though they may have had a Sarah born in 1866 who subsequently died age 2 in West Derby March 1869. They then named daughter born Dec 1869 same name. Funny as a family member of mine with daughter Sarah born in Lancashire as well did the exact same thing and then like your McDonalds went to US.
On last bit. In the 1861 census there is an Edward O'Brien with wife Elizabeth who is born 1809 in Ireland in West Derby same time as Patrick & Anne. Could he be related???
Hope this is useful, Kim
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Hi Kim,
Very interesting about our ancestors' similar emigration! I wonder if the Edward in West Derby at that time could be Ann's uncle. I have an Edward O'Brien as the sponsor of Patrick and Ann's son, John (my g-grandfather) in Fall River in 1876. Maybe the son of Edward in West Derby.
Great info!
Thanks again, Kim,
Steve
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If I could magically get an answer to just one question re: this post, it would be this:
I have baptisms of 4 children of Thomas MacDonald and Mary Cavanaugh in Raheen, from 1825-1833. They were: Judith, James, Bridget, and Thomas.
I then have a marriage of Thomas MacDonald and Sarah Neil, 1833, Raheen.
Then the bap. records of their children from 1833-1849: John, James, Patrick (my 2x great grandfather), Andrew, Bernard, Michael, and Mary.
Although it certainly appears that Thomas remarried in 1833, I have some reservations.
I have a headstone transcription in Rathanna, for a John MacDonald, father of Thomas. According to the stone, John died in 1830. Also buried, according to the stone, are Michael and Mary, who are the son and daughter from Thomas and Sarah.
The other reason I believe these may be 2 different Thomas MacDonalds is the first-born sons' names. The first son of Thomas and Mary was James, born 1827.
The first son of Thomas and Sarah was John, born 1835. It seems likely that John would have been named after his grandfather, John. I believe that the John MacDonald buried at Rathanna was the father of the Thomas MacDonald who married Sarah, and named their first son John.
There are some problems with my theory. The most salient to me is the fact that, after 1833, there are no more bap records from Thomas and Mary Cavanaugh. The last was Thomas in May of 1833 (incidentally, Sarah Neil was a sponsor!). In April, 1834, Thomas and Sarah wed.
I'd be happy to hear any thoughts or knowledge of records or info I may be overlooking. It might be wishful thinking on my part. My line comes fro Patrick, John and Sarah's son. Actually, I should hope that this is the same Thomas, and he just remarried, rather than discovering there was yet another Thomas MacDonald in Raheen!!
Thank you!
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Basically just got confirmation this is my family. Thank you all who have helped. I visited Borris last year and fell in love with my ancestral homeland. We Americans are sometimes thought of as brusque and ill-mannered. Probably true, but I think we also suffer from a feeling of being orphaned. I envy those whose families chose to stay in their birth homes, where they really feel at "home."
Kindest Regards.
Stephen