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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: argyllshiregirl on Saturday 06 December 14 00:06 GMT (UK)
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My great grandfather's brother, John FLETCHER, has long been a mystery to us. Wondering if anyone can see something that we are missing??
John was the son of Alexander FLETCHER, a shepherd, and Catherine MCPHAIL. This couple had 10 children - John, Alexander, Angus, Ronald, Colin, Margaret, Catherine, Mary, Lily and Jane, all born at Achadeshenaig, Glen Aros, Mull, Argyll in the mid 1800s. Today, we found John's birth on SP but it only poses more questions. He was born on October 25th, 1858 but strangely enough it looks like he was originally called/christened (maybe even registered) as Archibald and then later named John which was registered on November 6th, 1858.
He worked at the Salen Hotel in the 1870s and 1880s, then disappears. We have very few clues, at least none that have helped us so far. The story goes that he joined the military and at some point deserted and then lived the rest of his days in/near Taynuilt under the assumed name of John MCDONALD. A nephew took care of his affairs after his death and it was he who supplied this information. John MCDONALD is such a common name and so many villages and parishes border Taynuilt, and the lack of a death year all make this a difficult task. He likely died between 1930 and 1950, so I wouldn't be surprised if some old native of Taynuilt might recall him.
John FLETCHER (alias MCDONALD) may have been married. The clue that hints at that is a circa 1900 photograph of my grandfather, Alexander FLETCHER (1890 - 1950), and all his siblings plus one extra child. This boy was only known to be called John and died not long after this. He may have been born around 1890, from how he looks in the photo.
As you can see, we have little more than tantalizing clues. My father has been going through John FLETCHERs and John MCDONALDs on SP but there are too many of them! Thanks for any ideas.
Mary Fletcher Harris
Canada
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Twins possibly, one expected to live the other one weaker?
dates etc according to FamilySearch
Alexander Fletcher/Catherine McPhail Marriage & Banns: 1 January 1854 Kilchrenan And Dalavich,Argyll,Scotland and 2 January 1854 Salen By Tobermory,Argyll,Scotland
Children in date order (all listed as Salen)
Angus Fletcher 07 Mar 1855
Mary Fletcher 13 Dec 1856
John Fletcher 25 Oct 1858
Peggy Fletcher 02 Aug 1860 (Margaret)
Jane Scott Fletcher 11 Jul 1862
Lilly Fletcher 18 Jun 1864
Collin Fletcher 25 May 1866
Ronald Fletcher 25 Apr 1868
Alexander Fletcher 08 Apr 1870
Catherine Fletcher 26 May 1873
No sign of an Archibald on FS and John's dob tallies with date you give for Archibald :-\
Could it be an error on the register?
ETA Grandparents shown here http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/
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John and Lil(l)y both appear together on the 1881 census for Salen
1881 Salen District No : 3 Page No : 4 House No : 67 Locality : Salen 188140680
McCalman Dugald 35 Head General Merchant Kilmalie, Inverness, Scotland
McLachlan John 13 Nephew Scholar Tobermory, Argyll, Scotland
Clark Isabella 24 Servant Servant Domestic Kilmalie, Inverness, Scotland
Fletcher John 22 Servant Shopkeeper Kilninian, Argyll, Scotland
Fletcher Lilly 16 Servant Servant Domestic Kilninian, Argyll, Scotland
So the next move would be to find him in 1891 census
ps Where did his parents go after 1881, I don't see them on Mull? When did Alex snr die?
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This looks like Col(l)in in 1911
1911 Kilfinichen & Kilvickeon District No : 3 Page No : 1 House No : 3 Locality : Ardchrionish
Fletcher Colin 44 Head Farm Manager Argyllshire, Salen
Fletcher Maggie 37 Wife Argyllshire, Ardnamurchan
Fletcher Alexander 9 Son School Argyllshire, Ardnamurchan
Fletcher Christina 6 Daur Argyllshire, Kilfinichen
Fletcher Colin 3 Son Argyllshire, Kilfinichen
McMaster Christina 24 Servant General Servant (Domestic) Argyllshire, Kilfinichen
and with his mum and sibs in 1891
1891 Kilninian & Kilmore District No : 3 Page No : 3 House No : 17 Locality : Archnacraig Farm
Fletcher Catherine 62 Head Argyllshire Kilchoman
Fletcher Colin 24 Son Shepherd Argyllshire Torosay
Fletcher Alexander 20 Son Farm Servant Argyllshire Torosay
Fletcher Katie 17 Dau General Servant Argyllshire Torosay
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Hi Mary and Fifer :)
There are a number of online trees for this line. Alexander's Snr.'s death is given as being on 18 Nov 1883 in Aros Mains, Salen and wife Catherine's in 1904 in Derryguaig.
Monica
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Fifer, that 1891 census entry you posted, what is the source for this one? From one of the transcript services, they show son John rather than Colin :-\ Odd, the age on the entry certainly fits for Colin.
Catherine Fletcher 62
John Fletcher 24 shepherd
Alexander Fletcher 20
Katie Fletcher 17
Address: Achnacraig Farm
Monica
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Mary, has anyone ever followed up on this possible entry from 1901?
Catherin Fletcher 78 b. Argyle, Kilininan
John Fletcher 40 son, gamekeeper, b. Argyle, Small Isle Hum (as transcribed)
Mary Fletcher 38 gamekeeper's wife b. Argyl, Kilininan
Anna Bella Fletcher 2 daughter b. argyl, Torosay
Address: Ballamenach, Torosay, Salen
Monica
Added: ;D Maybe we are in the land of Fletchers. This looks like it may be the correct entry for Catherine Snr. in 1901, if the death place given in 1904 for Catherine Snr is correct:
Allan Cameron 39 shepherd b. Acharacle Argyll
Catherine Cameron 27 b. Kilninian, Argyll
Catherine Fletcher 72 b. Mother-in-law b. Dalavich, Argyll
Peter MacNally 35
John MacNally 25
Address: Derryguaig Cortage, Torosay, Salen
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Fifer, that 1891 census entry you posted, what is the source for this one? From one of the transcript services, they show son John rather than Colin :-\ Odd, the age on the entry certainly fits for Colin.
Catherine Fletcher 62
John Fletcher 24 shepherd
Alexander Fletcher 20
Katie Fletcher 17
Address: Achnacraig Farm
Monica
Mull Genealogy show Colin Monica and tbf they're usually very reliable :-\ Thinking about it further it would be a simple enough step from shepherd 1891 to farm manager 1911.
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Monica
Added: ;D Maybe we are in the land of Fletchers. This looks like it may be the correct entry for Catherine Snr. in 1901, if the death place given in 1904 for Catherine Snr is correct:
Allan Cameron 39 shepherd b. Acharacle Argyll
Catherine Cameron 27 b. Kilninian, Argyll
Catherine Fletcher 72 b. Mother-in-law b. Dalavich, Argyll
Peter MacNally 35
John MacNally 25
Address: Derryguaig Cortage, Torosay, Salen
That's the one Monica a Catherine Fletcher married an Allan Cameron in Tobermory 1899 (acc to SP)
ETA Allan gains a whopping 8 years in 1911 but he and Catherine have moved again and don't appear to have any children.
1911 Kilninian & Kilmore District No : 1 Page No : 3 House No : 18 Locality : Lettermore
Cameron Allan 49 Head Shepherd Argyllshire, Ardnamurchan
Cameron Catherine 37 Wife Argyllshire, Torosay
MacMillan Catherine 24 Visitor
MacLeod Angus 68 Boarder
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Mull Genealogy certainly very likely to be the correct transcript...compared to the other transcript service ::)
Just an odditity that it shows a John, the missing son. Age etc all fit well for Colin.
Monica
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Acc to SP (again) there are 4 x 33 year old John Fletchers in Scotland in 1891, none are in Argyle. 3 are in Glasgow a likely destination of Western Islanders, the other is in Dumfries.
Providing he was still using his correct name and age, I'd look at those 3 Glasgow entries first.
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Mull Genealogy certainly very likely to be the correct transcript...compared to the other transcript service ::)
Just an odditity that it shows a John, the missing son. Age etc all fit well for Colin.
Monica
I've updated the other post Monica don't know if you saw it? Marriage of Catherine Fletcher to Allan Cameron.
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Hi Fifer :)
Yes I have now, sorry. Like all of us now, here, there and everywhere :D
Not sure if we have added anything here, Mary :-\ You are an experienced researcher, as I have seen from material online. What you and your father need really, is to be able to sit at one of the main Scottish genealogy centres' computer screens and plough through records. Something that is not possible from Canada...
Your research for him in the 1900s is directed by the comment:
The story goes that he joined the military and at some point deserted and then lived the rest of his days in/near Taynuilt under the assumed name of John MCDONALD. A nephew took care of his affairs after his death and it was he who supplied this information. John MCDONALD is such a common name and so many villages and parishes border Taynuilt, and the lack of a death year all make this a difficult task. He likely died between 1930 and 1950, so I wouldn't be surprised if some old native of Taynuilt might recall him.
Monica
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Hello folks,
Wow, thank you for all this help, and so quickly too! It's a lot to digest.
Monica, you are absolutely correct about the deaths of John FLETCHER's parents in 1883 and 1904. You are correct too that Mull was the land of the FLETCHERs! Different waves of them went over to Mull during different centuries. My father is the last Glenorchy born FLETCHER (1931), although his great grandfather, Alexander FLETCHER, had migrated to Mull nearly a century before, and then the subsequent generations returned to the mainland. Recently, my father did Y DNA testing and matched with a Mull FLETCHER who had long been told that they were different FLETCHERs. The FLETCHERs were cattle drovers. You find them in places like Mull and Islay where the cattle grazing is excellent. This is likely how they became entangled with the MCPHAILs, other historic cattle people.
Monica, the second family you mentioned, the ones at Derryguaig in 1901, are the correct ones. They are also the same family found at Achnacraig 10 years earlier. Not sure why it says John rather than Colin though ... odd. Too young to be John, who would be 33 by then.
Fifer, yes John's sister, Catherine FLETCHER, did marry Allan CAMERON. My father, now almost 84 years old, remembers them. Allan was some way related to Margaret CAMERON who was the wife of Catherine's brother, Colin FLETCHER (that you pointed out on the 1911 census at Ardchrionish). I met their eldest son, Alexander (known as Alisdair) FLETCHER, shown on that census. Colin FLETCHER's son, also Colin (age 3 in 1911) has a daughter living on Mull today. I know her as well. The nephew that I mentioned in my original post, the one who took care of John FLETCHER's final affairs was this younger Colin FLETCHER, born about 1908.
Thanks again, folks!
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What I was trying to get at (gently ;)) with my post re 1891 census was to try to narrow down the time frame of when (or why) and where he changed his name.
Two reasons spring to mind a) desertion from military service as you state or b) family avoidance :-[ does happen sometimes especially if they had a termagant of a spouse and we don't always tell our family the true reason. ;D
So if we can find him in 1891 census we could be closing in.
PS I also have a link to McPhail on Mull :)
PS Monica LOADS of Fletchers in Mull records :D
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More thoughts
Where was Colin jnr living when he tended to his uncle's affairs?
Did he live close by?
If not
How was he contacted and by whom after John died?
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Hi Fifer,
No need to be 'gentle' ... I am very familiar with secretive relatives! ;) Actually, those are my favourite kind - the colourful ones! Give me a good skeleton in the closet any day of the week.
Yes, Colin FLETCHER, the nephew was living nearby. My father can rhyme off all the places he was during those years, so I will get him to tell me again. Dad says Colin would have been a minimum of 21 years of age to be allowed to take care of someone's affairs, so 1929 at the earliest. John, his uncle, would have been 71 then. So the death likely occurred in the 1930s - 40s. I wish I knew what lawyer he used! I have received wills from the 1930s still stored in files of present day Argyll law offices.
Another clue, but it might be a far reach and nothing at all. Dad says he remembers his great aunt, Catherine (FLETCHER) CAMERON having nothing on the walls of her tiny cottage except a huge prominently displayed art piece depicting the exploits and campaigns of Hector MCDONALD, the famous Scottish military man who rose up through the ranks to become a major general. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_MacDonald Maybe Catherine was keen on him simply because of his Scottish patriotism. Or maybe it was more? Could it be that Hector, (born in 1853) and John FLETCHER were young privates together in the military once? Might Catherine have met him? Could the alias MCDONALD be a nod to Hector? Grasping at straws here, I know! ::)
You have Mull MCPHAILs too? I'm not surprised. I find that all my mainland Argyll ancestors connect loosely to each other, if even by marriage. On Mull, and the other islands, I find they are all related and often 2 or 3 times! My MCPHAIL connection hits a dead end early. Catherine (MCPHAIL) FLETCHER was the daughter of Colin MCPHAIL and Mary STEWART who married at Kilchrenan & Dalavich and also had a daughter, Mary MCPHAIL, there in 1836. Beyond that, I know nothing.
We'll get somewhere yet!
Mary
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My McPhail is Flora bn estimated between 1766-1771 married John McKinnon bn Beach (Beluich), at Kilfinichen & Kilvickeon, Mull, Argyll 31 May 1809 both died at Scoor between 1841 - 51 so sadly no record or further clues.
1841 census
Kilfinichn-Kilvickon-Argyllshire
Address: Scoor
MCKINNON John M 80 Agricultural Labourer Argyllshire
MCKINNON Flora F 70 Argyllshire
MCKINNON Archibald M 20 Argyllshire
Who knows she may turn up in your research somewhere! ;D
Interesting re Hector McDonald
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Fifer,
We'll end up related yet! I'm also a MCKINNON descendant. My grandmother, Catherine MCKINNON (1889 - 1937) was born at Kenegharair, Mull (spelling?) to Neil MCKINNON (of Burg, Kilninian) and Annie PATERSON. She married Alexander FLETCHER (1890 - 1950), nephew of the mysterious John FLETCHER, in 1928. I have more on the Kilninian MCKINNONs if you want.
Mary
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Keilnoening maybe? That's at Kilninian and not far from Burg.
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Fifer,
I finally checked the spelling and my grandmother FLETCHER (nee MCKINNON) was born at Kengarhair. Those Gaelic names! My Dad is great with them (he had Gaelic before English) but they sure challenge me.
Mary
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Fifer,
My father was here today and I asked him to tell me again where Colin FLETCHER, nephew to John FLETCHER, was living during the years that he would have been given the task of winding up the affairs of his uncle, who reportedly "lived the rest of his days in Taynuilt" under the assumed name of John MCDONALD.
In 1929, when Colin would have become of age to look after people's affairs, he was still with his parents on Ulva, where his father, Colin FLETCHER Sr., was farmer. About 1932, the family went to Glengorm and old Colin died there not too long after. The family stayed until about 1936 then went to Antium. When young Colin married, about 1938, he went to work at Torloisk for manager Hugh McInnes (name uncertain) and when this manager left about 1940, Colin followed him to Ardnasaig on Loch Awe side. When McInnes returned to Torloisk about 1943/1944, Colin followed him back! Colin remained at Torloisk until his own retirement.
It may be that Colin was living nearest to his uncle John in the early 1940s when he was at Ardnasaig. That makes sense because John would have been over 80 years old by then.
Thanks for your input!
Mary
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I'm still trying to figure out where Kengarhair is I'm sure I should know having lived outside Dervaig for 2 years! :-\
Leaving Dervaig going over the bridge to the west the road branches in two the right fork goes round the coast passed Calgary Bay and back eventually to meet the other road, the left fork goes over the hill (short cut ;) ) which road is Kengarhair on?
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Mary and Fifer, hello both :) Always great when you see people trying to make the personal connections.
Mary from your last info...There is no death in the Registration District of Muckairn (for Taynuilt) for a John M*don* (for spelling variations) or also a John Fletcher, born 1860 +/- 5yrs, between 1925-60.
I got excited about the single hit for a John M*cDon* with the above profile, but turns out he was a James Johnstone McDonald aged 82 who died in 1947 in the Muckairn area.
Monica
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Looks like Taynuilt is the wrong place Monica, Ardanaiseig (Kilchrenan) on Loch Awe more likely a good bit nearer me (other side of the loch) on the A85 - as it happens :D
From my 'hoose' I can see both the A85 and A84 - your puzzle for the day is where do I live ;D
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Ok...new search!
Only 3 deaths entries for a John McDonald (with the criteria as above re wildcards etc...). I think two of them are the same John as same year and ref no. Ages all out by a couple of years:
1. and 2. John Mac/McDonald, aged 62 death in 1925.
3. John Ellen McDonald , aged 71 died in 1933 (other surname McKinnon, but that is not in mother's maiden name box).
Not sure at all really :-\
Nothing still with Fletcher in Kilchrenan.
Monica
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Fifer,
Kengharair Farm is located at Grid Ref. 436486 on OS Sheet48 Ben More and Mull.(1976)
About 2.5m south of Dervaig, to the east of the hill road over to Torloisk, overlooking the River Bellart. The access track to the property leads off the Torloisk road, midway through the tight uphill U-bend in the road.
Over the years the spelling has changed from Kingarbh(1882), Kingharair(1897) to its present Kengharair.
Regards
Istrice
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Fifer,
Kengharair Farm is located at Grid Ref. 436486 on OS Sheet48 Ben More and Mull.(1976)
About 2.5m south of Dervaig, to the east of the hill road over to Torloisk, overlooking the River Bellart. The access track to the property leads off the Torloisk road, midway through the tight uphill U-bend in the road.
Over the years the spelling has changed from Kingarbh(1882), Kingharair(1897) to its present Kengharair.
Regards
Istrice
;D ;D That explains why I never saw the sign as I am always the driver! That bend is pretty terrifying although the river is impressive. Thank you Istrice :)
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This is so interesting! Off topic, but when my father showed me Kengharair in 2008, he pointed out "the shedder". It's a funny little gate that is supposed to be used for grading animals, but supposedly it was once used to grade people! When there were large gatherings, the working men were sent one way and the upper class folks went the other way to dine with their appropriate class.
The big house there today was the manager or overseer's house. Down the hill, among a clump of trees, near a burn, stood the shepherd's cottage. It's gone now. My great grandparents were there and my grandmother was born there in 1889. All her siblings were born on Tiree where her maternal grandparents (PATERSON) lived. It was the custom for the women to go home to their mother to give birth. I guess my gran made a surprise appearance or maybe the late November weather prevented a safe crossing.
Fifer, why are you called Fifer? Just asking because my mother lived with relatives in Dunfermline during the 1930s - 50s, even though she was an Argyll native.
Mary
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I lived in Fife for 30+ years just outside Dunfermline.
I read your on-line travels argyllgal, strangely I was living there at the time :D
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Hello folks,
Nothing new to report but Dad and I still try to brainstorm for answers to this puzzle. John FLETCHER (aka MCDONALD/MACDONALD) must have died sometime somewhere. The answer is out there and we just have to find the key to unlocking it.
We have decided that we are not 100% sure that he was using his original given name of John (he was actually Archibald for the first few days of life - another oddity) in combination with his alias surname M(A)CDONALD. If we knew the names of all of the MCDONALD men living in/around Taynuilt in the 1930s, born about 1860, we could perhaps eliminate them all but one. As I say, he MUST have died some time, and so what does it say for parents on this man's death registration? It would be odd to find a male MCDONALD with FLETCHER parents listed I would think. I also wish you could search SP by informant because I am quite sure the nephew of our mystery man, Colin FLETCHER, was the informant.
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Hi Mary
Been a while :)
Just looking through the material again. John, with sister Lily, in 1871 showed as born in Kilninian. There is this 1901 census to consider:
Robert Boyle 62 Pier Master b. Kilwinning, Ayrshire
Janet Boyle 61 wife b. Buchanan, stirlingshire
Ellen Boyle 27 daughter b. Kilninian, argyleshire
John Fletcher 42 Worker Porter b. Kilninian, argyleshire
Address: Keppel Pier House, Cumbrae Bute
Just a possiblie further piece of info for John.
Monica
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I might have an answer for you. My great-grandmother stowed away to South Africa during the time you lose trace. I have traced my bloodline to the exact same John Fletcher. It is possible that names were changed at the time to protect their identities. I have a marriage certificate to an Isabelle Frazer
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Sorry I missed the bit that my Great-grandmother left with John Fletcher and Margarete Fletcher (daughter) to South Africa. I am quite convinced these are the same people you are trying to trace.