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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Ali M on Thursday 11 December 14 21:27 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
Phillip is my 3x gt grandfather. I have found a record of his birth and several helpful family trees that confirm /suggest his father is Phillip Keddie b. 1793 son of Robt Keddie and Janet nee Adamson in Wemyss but things are not as simple as they seem!
Phillip is baptised in Monimail in 1813 the son of Phillip K and Mary Mc Kie. This or another Phillip snr goes on to have children with wife Mary Gibb in Cupar in the following years. They do not have a son Phillip. Ok I thought, either McKie is a misprint, an earlier marriage or an illegitimate child.
BUT Phillip and Mary Gibb's daughter Henrietta wrote a book about several generations of the family (I have it on order) and I've been told that there is no mention whatsoever of half brother Phillip.
What seems to make it more likely that my Phillip 1813 is the son of Phillip of Cupar is his Christian name. Phillip 1793's mother's mother was Margaret Philp and he is the first Phillip in the Keddie family. His brother Robert also has a son Phillip born in 1820 who is definitely not my Phillip.
There are no others of that generation that I can find anywhere.
So , please, any ideas how I might confirm once and for all my Phillip's paternity?
with many thanks, Alison in NZ
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So , please, any ideas how I might confirm once and for all my Phillip's paternity?
Did your Philip die in Scotland 1855 or later? I can't find an 1851 or 1861 entry with an 1813 birthyear
If he did - then downloading a copy of his death cert from the Scotlands People website will give you his parents names and his mothers maiden name
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
1851 for Elie Fife
Philip Keddie 57 b Wemyss coal master
Mary Gibber Keddie 61 b Cupar
Ann Irish 24 servant b Kilconquhar
Elie ED 3 Page 12 Line 1
If he was the father of your Philip - he would have been about 19yrs old when he was born
1841 mis-transcribed as Kidder
Philip Keddie 45 farmer
Mary 45
Margaret 22
Mary 20
Secella?? 20
Janet 15
Henrietta 14
Mary Gray 20
Isabel Harris 20
Kilconquhar ED 5 Page 4 Line 400
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thank you for this information - yes the man in the census is Philip snr - the one I and other Keddie relatives think is my Philip's father. (Secella is Isabella)
My Philip moved to England and was in Hertfordshire by 1834 when he married Maria Pym. He remained in England, travelling around quite a bit as he was a railways plate -layer. In the 1851 census he gives Glasgow as his birth place. No luck at all finding a Philip K. born in Glasgow. I have wondered, if he was illegitimate, whether he was shipped off to Glasgow to wider family or possibly an institution.
Alison
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Ancestry says that Phillip Keddie died 15 JAN 1871 in Oswestry, Shropshire, England.
Also that he marries Maria PYM in 19 JUL 1834 in London, Middlesex, England.
As painful as it is I would probably buy both those certificates.
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I'd love to buy his marriage certificate especially but didn't think I could pre 1837
kind regards, Alison
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You are correct - marriage certificates were only introduced from 1.7.1837. Prior to then - marriage entries were in parish registers and fathers names were not shown
There is very little useful info on a death cert - certainly no parental names on English death certs for that period.
The marriage was at St Luke in Chelsea. Philip Keddie bachelor shown as "of this parish" which only means he lived there long enough to satisfy the residence qualification for marrying there
Maria was also shown as of this parish and was a spinster.
Philip signed the register but Maria made her mark
Witnesses were Elizabeth Pym (made her mark) and a signature which may possibly be Binns
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thank you for this - I think Elizabeth was Maria's mother. (her family is proving slightly easier to verify!)
kind regards, Alison
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I just got my copy of the latest Fife Family History Society journal (Winter 2014) today and there is an article entitled "A Keddie Family in Wemyss", which is obviously your family. Are you the author? No author's name is given in the Contents list.
Harry
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Hello Harry,
no I'm not the author but would be most interested to see/access the article. I'm in New Zealand and so my research is done at a distance. many thanks for getting in touch. Alison
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If you send me a PM with your email address I'll scan it and send it to you as an email attachment.
Harry
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I too am trying to research my family tree...Keddie. I have reached the same stumbling block with Philip Keddie baptised in Monimail. I can find no marriage for Mary McKie and Philip Keddie so can't confirm whether this is the Phiiip who married Mary Gibb. I am currently reading 3 Generations Keddie in the hope of finding a clue. Stumped otherwise.
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Phillip is baptised in Monimail in 1813 the son of Phillip K and Mary Mc Kie.
Does the baptism show Mary McKie as 'his wife'?
Different parishes had different ways of writng their info. but I'd assume if married it would state 'his wife' or other words relating to being illegitimate again the wording can be different depending on the Minister.
Annie
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Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately there is no mention of her being his wife. It is on the bottom of a sheet listing births in Monimail. To be honest her surname is difficult to make out. I have tried various e.g. McGie McKie
It also says her father William is sponsor.
Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre,
Have you looked at the other baptisms on the page to see what they say regarding the mother which will help to determine the relationship i.e. whether married or not?
Annie
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Hi Annie
Well I hadn't looked at the others but I have now. There are 29 families listed but 6 of them have "his wife" after the mothers name. Could this mean that all the others were out of wedlock? I never thought to look at the others.
Many thanks
Deirdre
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Hi Annie
Checking the document further there is a statement above 2 entries....the 2nd one is the one I am I interested in. It says sic...omited in their place by the neglect of their parents. I wonder what that means.
Deirdre
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There are 29 families listed but 6 of them have "his wife" after the mothers name. Could this mean that all the others were out of wedlock?
I would assume so if the writing is all the same hand?
Checking the document further there is a statement above 2 entries....the 2nd one is the one I am I interested in. It says sic...omited in their place by the neglect of their parents. I wonder what that means.
Without seeing exactly the context in which it's written i.e. the whole sentence/paragraph it's difficult to work out the word 'omited'...can you post a snip of it including entries above & below please as the word may be 'commited'?
Annie
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Hi Annie
I have tried to post just part of the document but keeps coming up as an error. Is there another way to get this I go to you? I did notice that one of the couples had a "natural" child which I understand means illegitimate.
Deirdre
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Deirdre,
Will send you a PM ;)
Annie