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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: josey on Wednesday 17 December 14 19:37 GMT (UK)
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I found a 15 Apr 1839 marriage on familysearch
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV64-GT1
of Amelia Hayter [father Charles Hayter] to James Fostine Knight [father same name] at St James, Paddington.
Are these parish records viewable on ancestry or findmypast? If not I will just have to order the certificate Kensington 1839 Jun 3 222.
Can anyone find this couple in 1841 please?
Thanks, Josey
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They should be on Ancestry but aren't.
I'll have a rummage around for you to see what's happened.
As to the 1841 census, Paddington is missing
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
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The information you have is also on Ancestry but no image of the certificate I'm afraid.
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A film is missing P87/JS/21 covering from Oct 1838 to Dec 1839
I expect it will be put online eventually but there have been huge gaps in the collection since 2009 when the collection was launched.
What else are you hoping the entry will give you?
May not be worth spending £9.25
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Thank you very much both. Dawn, I want to know if Charles Hayter, Amelia's father, is a blacksmith & where she was living.
Can't find them in 1851 either.. :o
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Did they have any children that you know of?
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I haven't researched them before. I had thought that Amelia born Marylebone 1812, daughter of Charles Hayter blacksmith my 4 x g grandfather, had married Henry Coates in 1831. It now seems unlikely, as I found Amelia Coates in the 1851 census aged 45 so born ca 1806 stating she was born in Staines, where there was a Hayter clan [probably related but I'm working on that!!].
Strangely 'my' Amelia's sister Ann married a second time in 1845 as a widow - she was Ann Foulston [oddly like Fostine] daughter of Charles a smith.
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Looking at 1851, at all Amelias bn in Marylebone in 1812 +/- 2 years , there are rather a lot! I guess any one of them may be "yours"
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Yes - thanks for looking; I've had a quick scan to see if any of the surnames could be a mistranscription [surely not?] of Knight & have tried filtering on a spouse James; will keep looking.
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I reported the film s missing from the database and received this standard reply (I've seen it several times before)
Thank you for contacting Ancestry in regards to missing images and transcriptions.
We apologize for the frustration you've experienced regarding errors in the London Metropolitan Archives collection. I have forwarded your feedback on to the relevant department. Please understand that while we receive a large volume of error submissions to our queue, they represent a very small percentage of the total number of records on Ancestry. Due to the volume of error submissions, fixes to errors on Ancestry are posted firstly in the order of those which affect the greatest number of users, and thereafter in the order in which they are reported. For this reason, there is no foreseeable timeframe as to when these changes will be made.
We appreciate your patience.
so you'll have to bite the bullet and pay £9.25, take a trip to the LMA to view it, wait for someone else to have a look but they are few and far between in London, or visit your local LDS centre and view the register on microfilm there.
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Thank you Dawn. Pity about 'no foreseeable timeframe'. How can they predict how many users any one error affects? Does it mean the more people 'report' an error or omission, they then determine it affects more people? I feel a 'report' coming on... ;)
I have bitten the bullet & ordered the certificate. I will post the details when I get it. Meanwhile still searching for them in 1851 & later censuses & emigration.
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Bullet bitten .... and BINGO ;)
15 April 1839 Parish Church Paddington:
James Fostine Knight full age bachelor labourer son of James Fostine Knight engineer, signed
Amelia Hayter full age spinster daughter of Charles Hayter smith, made mark
both living at South Wharf Road; witnesses Charles Trowsdale [Amelia's brother-in-law & my 4 x g grandfather] made mark & Ann Hayter [possibly Amelia's mother Ann] signed.
Now to find them on censuses & any children or death indexes or emigration...
The amazing coincidence about South Wharf Road is that my very first job at St Mary's Hospital Medical School in 1963 was in a research laboratory the 'Mint Stables' in South Wharf Road :o
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That was quick from the GRO or did someone do a look-up for you at the LMA?
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I'd actually ordered it on the 17 Dec in a rush of seasonal spending!!
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Outside possibilities in census [James F Knight was a labourer in 1839 on marriage, these 2 James W F Knights are *rich*, also Amelia was born 1812 & this Emily in ca 1806 - women are not well known for ADDING years to their age].
1861 RG09/85/69/45
James W F Knight aged 55 born Knightsbridge fundholder
Emily D Knight aged 56 born Marylebone
visitors in Blandford Square, Marylebone with a Chisholm family
1871 RG10/2375/27/15
James W F Knight aged 65 born Knightsbridge independent
Emily D Knight aged 65 born Marylebone independent
visitors in Taunton
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The outside possibility above is definitely NOT!!
I found a probate in 1893 for an Emily Duncan Knight of Clevedon, Somerset died 1876, widow of James William Francis Knight, this is obviously the couple in the censuses I found.
Back to the hunt... ;)
ADDED: Found a baptism of Fostine Knight on 16 Mar 1781 at St Martins in the Fields, daughter of Thomas Knight & Ann
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQTR-H81
This person is in 2 trees on ancestry.com.au but even with a worldwide ancestry subscription I can't access the trees to contact the owners.
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Hello! I believe that I am a descendant of James and Amelia Hayter Knight. In the notes of my 2nd Great Aunt, Clara Knight Hahn, she listed her grandparents as Foster James Knight and Amelia Catherine Haight from England who immigrated to the USA in the early 1840's. She revealed that Foster's father was also named Foster James Knight and that he came from a wealthy family. However, Catherine came from a lower class background. After his arrival in the USA, Foster became a sea captain and died sometime between 1850-1860. The couple first lived in Manhattan, NY, but after Foster's death, Amelia lived with her eldest daughter, Hester Knight Scott, in Jersey City, NJ, where she died on 7/16/1879. Research online led to a dead end and no marriage record for the couple was found. However, when I saw your post and the marriage record from 1839, there were many clues and similarities that led me to believe that these were my ancestors. The last name Hayter and Haight are very similar and the first name Foster and Fostine are not much different either. These names may have been tweaked in America or remembered wrong. They are the right age and both grooms shared the same name as their father. Also, the names Foster James, Charles, and Amelia are carried through the American branches of the family. Too, is the class difference between the couple, James Fostine Knight Sr being an engineer and Charles Hayter being a smith. Aunt Clara said that the Knights were wealthy and the Haights were lower class. This is eerily similar to Aunt Clara's recollections written when she was in her 80's. Sorry for the length of this, but very hard to explain :)! Please let me know what you think?!
Sincerely,
Greg
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Hi Greg
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Josey should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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Well hello Greg and welcome to rootschat!!
Oh the power of rootschat & its ability for names to be found even years after posting! This is a very exciting development. And since that 2014 post I have found the Hayters back to Charles Hayter 1728 - 1807 who married Hannah Chitty ca 1726 - 1793 in 1753 in Windleham, Surrey.
Foster James Knight and Amelia Catherine Haight from England who immigrated to the USA in the early 1840's.
This would explain why we can't find them on Enngland census!!
Too, is the class difference between the couple, James Fostine Knight Sr being an engineer and Charles Hayter being a smith.
This may have been an exaggeration over time, as James Fostine Knight jnr is described as a labourer on the 1839 marriage certificate, and engineer didn't mean quite what it does today. Also the Hayters, blacksmiths of Windlesham & Staines [from whom Charles descends], were a respected family. Not that I'm denying lower class origins ;D ;D
I have quite a few relevant certificates, baptisms, wills and even [very recently acquired] a photograph of my 2 x g grandmother Eleanor Trowsdale nee Hayter, Amelia's sister. Also including a diary of the voyage written by a relative Richard Ansell Hayter 1826 - 1905 in 1850 when he emigrated with 2 sisters to New Zealand, a copy of a carte de visite of a relative John Hayter 1782 - 1855, copy of torn out loose page of a family bible [long lost] etc etc.
When you have made 2 more posts, Greg - just reply briefly to this thread twice - I can send you my email address by personal message [don't put email address on this public forum] and we can exchange information. Look forward to that...
Josey
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Hi Josey
How exciting ;D
Information for Greg on how to use the personal message system
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Dawn
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Thanks, Dawn.
Can't wait for Greg to reply....
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Just looked at 1880 US census Year: 1880; Census Place: Jersey City, Hudson, New Jersey; Roll: 783; Page: 10D; Enumeration District: 020
William F. Scott 43
Hesta A. Scott 42
Charles Scott 9
Amelia Knight 62
*As Amelia is there, I suspect death year of 1879 is incorrect? See edit below
Here is Hester's birth
KNIGHT, ESTHER ANN HAYTER
GRO Reference: 1839 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01 Page 157
In 1910 1910; Census Place: Newark Ward 13, Essex, New Jersey; Roll: T624_881; Page: 21B; Enumeration District: 0112 Hester is widowed living as sister in law
Louis F Ambs 41
Katherine Ambs 59 b New York
Hester A Scott 67 b England immigrated 1844
So it appears James & Amelia had another daughter Katherine after emigration.
*ADDED~: And yet the return for deaths year ending 31 May 1880 DOES have Amelia's death as July - so patently 1879 - how come she's on 1880 census?
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So sorry to reply so late. I forgot all about the chat.
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Josey,
I was also confused by Amelia's death being recorded in 1879, yet she is on 1880 census. Besides Hester, I can tell you they had 4 other children: Foster James Knight(1846-1910), Maria Knight (Born 1848) who was married twice to Charles Russell and George Angell, Katherine Knight (1849-1883) who married Justis Wessel, and my ancestor Thomas Knight (1850-1926) who married Emma Fannie Waterman. Hope this helps!
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Sorry, Katherine Knight didn't die in 1883. That was a date I found in a death record that turned out to be incorrect.
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Hello Greg, so pleased you found this 'chat' again!! I have sent a personal message with my email address.
I will add the info you have given to my tree.
Josey
ADDED: I can find no other children born in England between 1839 & emigration in 1844, quite a large gap till Foster James in 1846.
ADDED 2: Ah I now see from the immigration record that Amelia & Hester arrived in 1840 not 1844 as stated on Hester's 1880 census. So any children 1840 - 1846 would have been born in New York not England.
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I was also confused by Amelia's death being recorded in 1879, yet she is on 1880 census.
Mystery solved. I just heard from Greg again & he has noticed that Amelia's entry on the 1880 census has 'Deceased' in the occupation column!!
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Hester's birth
KNIGHT, ESTHER ANN HAYTER
GRO Reference: 1839 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01 Page 157
This makes it become a bit more possible that James Fostine Knight is this baptism as James & Amelia may have named her after his mother:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J3C7-8RX
Name: James Knight [age 6]
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 12 Jul 1820
Christening Date (Original): 12 JUL 1820
Christening Place: SAINT MARY-ST MARYLEBONE ROAD,ST MARYLEBONE,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 21 Mar 1814
Father's Name: James Knight
Mother's Name: Esther
who also had a 4 yr old daughter Faustine baptised same day
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMNB-8ZN
Name: Faustine Knight
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 12 Jul 1820
Christening Date (Original): 12 JUL 1820
Christening Place: SAINT MARY-ST MARYLEBONE ROAD,ST MARYLEBONE,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 25 Jan 1816
Father's Name: James Knight
Mother's Name: Esther
Can Faustine b 1816 be found on the 1841?
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Oh there's a 5 yr old Faustin Knight [but male] arriving in New York in 1821
Name: Faustin Knight
Arrival date: 10 May 1821
Age: 5
Gender: M (Male)
Port of Arrival: New York
Place of Origin: England
Destination: United States of America
Ship: Ship Criterion
Microfilm Serial Number: M237
Microfilm Roll Number: 1
List Number: 387
That's with a Hester aged 48 & other children John 20, RObert 18, Caroline 14, William 12, James 6.
ADDED; And this
James F. Knight
James Knight
Elizabeth Knight
Franstini Knight
Name: Franstini Knight
Age: 12
Birth Year: abt 1815
Arrival Year: 1827
Arrival Place: New York, New York
Primary Immigrant: Knight, James F 43
Family Members: Wife Elizabeth 38; Son James 14; Son Franstini 12
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Name: Faustin Knight
Arrival date: 10 May 1821
Age: 5
Gender: M (Male)
Port of Arrival: New York
Place of Origin: England
Destination: United States of America
Ship: Ship Criterion
That's with a Hester aged 48 & other children John 20, RObert 18, Caroline 14, William 12, James 6.
I'm looking for baptisms for these other children with mother Hester/Esther.