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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: tom mix on Thursday 25 December 14 08:38 GMT (UK)
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I cannot find James Thomas Cahill, his wife Sarah Ellen & daughter Ellen anywhere in the 1891 Census. This is not a request for a person search, as extensive work has been put in by many people over a number of years with no success.
I would be content if someone here has evidence of missing pages of the Census in the Everton/Bootle area of Liverpool, 1891.
In 1888 they were at Towson Street Everton. In 1887 they were living in Epsom & Ascot Sts Liverpool. I cannot imagine them moving far away by 1891.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Alan
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Hi
According to information on FindMyPast there are no missing pieces on the 1891:
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
When 1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census was taken on April 5th, the total population of England, Wales and Scotland was recorded as 33,015,701.
The census is available in full, with no known missing pieces.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
It might be that they have been badly transcribed or they are missing for other reasons - e.g. enumerator error, etc.
I take it that you have you trawled through the sheets of the most likely areas page by page
Gadget
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Thank you Gadget!
I have had FindMyPast for the past 3 years and have trawled streets, door by door, in all wherever there was or had been, a sniff of a relative, though I admit there are many, many streets I have not explored. James and daughter do re-appear in the 1901 Census in Kendrick Street, but without the mother, Sarah Ellen. But that is a completely different story, which I have posted previously on the Lancashire Board.
Again thanks.Wish the Enumerator was still alive so I could ask him. ;D
Alan
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I take it that much of the info about them is on this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=672134.0
If heywood has searched for them and can't find them, I'm sure they must be missing/not entered as she is one of the best searchers for that area :)
Gadget
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Hi
I'm not sure where Findmypasts information comes from but according to The National Archives there are quite a few pieces missing from the 1891 census, they mostly seem to relate to persons on board vessels or Institutions. For West Derby (which covers both Bootle and Everton) there are the following missing
Reference: RG 12/2969
Description:
Registration Sub-District 4A Walton.
Civil Parish, Township or Place: Bootle cum Linacre (4) (Returns for Infectious Diseases Hospital partially MISSING.)
Date: 1891
Reference: RG 12/2970
Description:
Registration Sub-District 4B Walton.
Civil Parish, Township or Place: Bootle cum Linacre (8) (Returns for 717 persons on board 155 vessels are MISSING.)
Date: 1891
You can find what is missing by going to The National Archives Catalogue http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/)and search as follows
general register office 1891 census missing
Andy
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I'm not sure that the 3 missing sub-districts would contain the Cahills, Andy - on board vessels or all in hospital :-\
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=missing+rg12+lancashire
Gadget
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To Gadget & Andy,
You keep the search alive! Yes, Heywood, and many others, have spent a lot of time helping me in the past. That is why I said in my first post a day ago, that I was not asking anyone to re-open the search.
With some imagination, I can accept that the family could have been in the Infectious Diseases Hospital (they were definitely a poor family with few assets living in less than salubrious circumstances.) The child Ellen, who became my grandmother, did not attend her daughter's wedding, (my mother), in 1944 as she had no suitable clothes to wear. I had this information fom a cousin who did attend the wedding.
I can also believe that the three of them could have been using a vessel for overnight accommodation as James was associated with the river and shipping from at least 1881 to 1911 when he was described on the Census as a Rigger of Ships.
Two Long Bows to draw, maybe. But you have to hope !
Thank you both again.
Alan
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Hi Alan
Not sure about the vessels, hospital, just maybe but wouldn't like to bet on either. I think that it's most likely that they are just not recorded.
However, have you tried the Workhouse? Often they are just listed with initials rather than names.
Gadget
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Gadget,
Not sure if I did check the Workhouses in Everton area. Do you know of any specific websites or can I access through FindMyPast ?
Thanks
Alan
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Here's a general link to the history: http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Liverpool/
Workhouses are listed in the census - usually as a separate ED, so should be on FindMyPast.
I see he was a 'rigger of ships' on a later census - could he have crossed the Mersey and be somewhere on the Wirral or Manchester ship canal or................ :-\
Gadget
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Much appreciated, Gadget.
I have searched for the Cahills in 1891 throughout the whole of the Census without luck. If they were over the water or on the Canal, they should have shown up. I will return to FindMyPast and pursue the Workhouses.
Thanks
Alan
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Hi
The workhouse that covers both Everton and Bootle is West Derby http://www.workhouses.org.uk/WestDerby/ (http://www.workhouses.org.uk/WestDerby/) but searching the census should still have picked them up.
I'm sure a number of suggestions have been made on various threads but I wouldn't rule out emigration particularly if there are several years between positive sightings. It is surprising how many people emigrated and then returned to the UK.
Andy
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Andy,
Thanks. There is a 5 year gap between 1888, birth of child, and 1893 when I can find the mother acting as a god-mother at a Catholic Baptism in Liverpool.
James had an Irish mother and Sarah had a Welsh father. Both dead, but it's possible they were visiting outside England.
Alan
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I have searched for the Cahills in 1891 throughout the whole of the Census without luck. If they were over the water or on the Canal, they should have shown up. I will return to FindMyPast and pursue the Workhouses.
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan
Did you search for just initials? e.g. J* C*; S* C*; S* W*; etc.
I note from the other thread that James's mother was also missing from the 1891, although she died 2 years afterwards.
Did they have relatives in Ireland?
I've found another thread of yours- will read it through :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=378800.0
Gadget
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I assume that you've seen this death entry:
Sarah Ellen Cahill, Dec q, 1894, West Derby, 8b, 338 Aged 0.
Do you have the certificate?
Gadget
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Morning Gadget!
I have both the death and birth cert. of the Sarah Ellen Cahill you entered. I was hoping the age had been put down incorrectly. However she was the daughter of a Michael Cahill of 4 Siddons St Litherland. She died at 5 hours of age from a "Premature Birth. Insufficient vitality".
Just in case you keep looking, I also have a Marriage for a Sarah Ellen Cahill to John Connor in Kirkdale Liverpool in 1910. I thought she may have re-married. Sorry, but it is not her.
I will follow up your suggestion using just initials and * .
I am not aware of any relatives in Ireland. But would not discount the possibility.
James Cahill did have a brother, Richard, born in Liverpool.
I am pretty sure he appears on the 1891 Census living at 49 Orry St Liverpool with his wife Mary Kate who was born in Co Wexford.
In the 1901 Census Richard & Mary are living at 21 Ascot St Liverpool. Ascot St had been an address used on James and Sarah's Marriage Cert. in 1887.
Many thanks for your interest.
Alan
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Hi. Just found your post from 2014 during a Google Search and wanted to say that I, too, had a problem with missing parts of the 1891 Census for Liverpool some years ago. My search was for my great grandfather's shop at 141 Copperas Hill. At that time I spoke to a very helpful lady (from Liverpool council offices if I remember correctly) and, although she didn't believe me at first, she checked it herself and confirmed that that particular part of the hill was missing. She kindly sent me a page of Gores 1891 Liverpool Directory which does have the listing.
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Thanks Kismet,
Just goes to show you that you should never give up in this game.
But 6 years down the track and I am still looking for James Thomas, Sarah Ellen and child Ellen (Helen?) Cahill.
I assume they were living around the Ascot/Epsom Streets area of Bootle/Everton.
Alan
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Good luck with your search.
Kismet