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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: elainemar on Tuesday 30 December 14 19:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi...I am looking for any descendants of John Paterson and wife Elizabeth who lived in 31 Dunning street Glasgow Scotland, in 1951. John,s parents were Allan Paterson and Maggie(maiden name McKay)
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Do you have year(s) of birth/places of birth for any of the names you have given to give us a guide please?
Annie
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Rootschat isn't a forum for tracing living relatives but you've posted more details on another thread-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703854
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Do you have year(s) of birth/places of birth for any of the names you have given to give us a guide please?
Annie
...Hi Annie....ok...John Paterson 4/8/93 Glasgow Lanarkshire. Parents Allan Paterson birth 1868 Coll Argyllshire mother Margaret Paterson(nee McKay) birth 1863 Inverness. John Married Elizabeth Boyle in Calton Glasgow 2/10/25,,,found him living at 31 Dunning Street Glasgow, in 1951....cant trace him after that............thanks for any help
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Hi Annie..I think I messed up a reply to you, so doing it again. John Paterson 4/8/93 Glasgow. Parents Alan Paterson 1868 Coll Argylleshire and Margaret Paterson(nee McKay 1863 Inverness. John married Elizabeth Boyle 2/10/25 at Calton Glasgow, last trace of him was at 31 Dunning Street Glasgow in 1951 (he had signed his brother Roderick, death certificate whilst at that address)........thankyou for any help......
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There is a death on SP (scotlandspeople) 1978 in County (Lanark), District (Glasgow, Martha St) for a John Paterson (traditional soundex) with mother's maiden surname McKay.
I can't tell you if this is your relative though ? :-\
Annie
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Hi there...thankyou for your reply.....I am quite sure it could be "our" John Paterson, as his mothers maiden name was McKay, she reverted to that after her marriage to Alan, ended. There is another very long reason why I believe he is the one, briefly, we think that her reverted to his mothers maiden name of McKay, when he married my grandmother in 1914, he had joined the navy, but jumped ship in 1918, and was never heard of after. The researcher of Lanarkshire FHS, found him back in Glasgow, using his birth surname of Paterson, maybe using that name because of the desertion from the navy....so if you could give me more details of what you found, I would be very grateful......thankyou
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Hi Elaine,
I only done a search with the details you gave of John Paterson (I used the soundex option) & mother's maiden name of McKay then narrowed it down to find the area :P
I didn't open it as it costs credits but the only thing you would find if you pay to open would be the details I gave you along with the "Registration number" as you won't be able to download it because of the date restriction of 50yrs.
You can order it though whether through www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk for £12 (it's gone up) or by Tel. 0131 314 4411 (New Register House) or I think you can actually purchase them at your local registrar's? (I haven't had to do that so not too sure)?
If you give them the details I gave you they will find him no problem as he's the only one for that area with mother's maiden name McKay ;D
Annie
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Hi Elaine,
Interestingly there is a tree on An*****y with this:
Lachlan John Jack Paterson McKay Mackay
Birth 4 August 1893 in Govan, Lanarkshire, Scotland
It has the correct parent's & wife but curious as to Lachlan?
Maybe that was the name he was using when you couldn't find him?
Is there a Lachlan relation in the family who he chose this name from?
Maybe more info. to find from this hopefully? ;D
Annie
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Hi Annie...thankyou so very much...im sorry but I didn't give you Johns full Christian names...he is John Lachlan, and his fathers fathers name was also Lachlan, my son had recently joined Scotlands people, so I went on there looking for death info, but it wouldn't show anything after 1909?.....anyway, im sure we are on the right track now, thanks to you, but we also have to find out if there were children from that marriage, and I think that could be very difficult, if you,ve got any suggestions for that, please let me know....and thankyou once again
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Hi Annie...I just could not find Johns death on Scotlands People...also, I just rang Register House with the information you gave me, and they cant find it either.....now im really stumped!!!...can you help please...thanks
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Hi elainemar,
I found the one that ammack found, it is not yours however. I opened up the result and it is for a 45yo John Norman Paterson mother maiden name McKay, died Glasgow, registered in Martha St in 1978.
Tom
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Hi....thankyou for that....I feel quite downhearted now :'(.......dontknow what to do now, ive been searching on and off, for 30 years...finally gave it to my son to do........thankyou again
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Elaine,
Don't give up yet!!
Not all deaths on SP have mother's maiden name included as search criteria.
He may well have been registered under Lachlan?
He may have been under M(a)cKay?
This might be him (age a bit out but allowable) & I would put a £ bet on that it's him ;D
You can order with these details:
1969
MACKAY
JOHN LACHLAN
Not Permissible
M 62
District Nairn
City/County NAIRN 123/00 0094
Fingers crossed ???
Annie
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My guess is he did have family & he was with a family member when he passed away (hopefully)?
I also believe he was named John Lachlan M(a)cKay at birth although I don't have time to search at the moment but hopefully someone will be kind enough in my absence? ;D ::) :P
Annie
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You may want to open a thread in Nairn asking for a newspaper look-up for funeral arrangements for that time too? :P
Annie
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Hi Annie...thankyou so much...but he was found in Dunning Street in 1951, as he had signed his brother Roderick,s death certificate......so im still a bit doubtful...I may try what you suggested though. I think our biggest problem,is that he used the name Mackay when he married my grandmother in Kent in 1914, though what he was doing there, we don't know, my son had found a John Mackay in Borstal at that time too. After many tries with the M.O.D (my grandfather had been in the navy) he gave us what was the correct information about him, he was Mackay then birth date 4/8/1893, we knew it was the correct in, because of the fact, that what the family had known about him, was that he had (jumped) ship in 1918, and that showed on the final details of his naval record.....other than that, we don't know anything else, except that the researcher of Lanarkshire FHS had found him back in Glasgow under the name Paterson, so that is how we have got to where we are today...........thankyou
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Hi Elaine,
1. he used the name Mackay when he married my grandmother in Kent in 1914, though what he was doing there, we don't know
(Chatham, Kent was/is a Royal Navy Establishment)
2. my son had found a John Mackay in Borstal at that time too
What do you have to substantiate this could be him? Do you have an age of inmate, newspaper report or anything else to support your thoughts? A very common name!!![/color]
3. After many tries with the M.O.D (my grandfather had been in the navy) he was Mackay then birth date 4/8/1893
There were NO births with ANY surname for a John Lachlan in that year (1893) ANYWHERE in Scotland
There was 1 birth for a John Lachlan McKay (1885 Lanark) with parent's John Lachlan McKay & Jane Collins ??? ??? :o :o ::) ::) :P :P ;D ;D
4. we knew it was the correct in, because of the fact, that what the family had known about him, was that he had (jumped) ship in 1918
Seems to be the ONLY thing so far that is TRACEABLE apart from why he was in Kent ::)
5. the researcher of Lanarkshire FHS had found him back in Glasgow under the name Paterson, so that is how we have got to where we are today
So...........because the "Researcher" couldn't trace him outside Glasgow, he didn't move & because the "Researcher" found him as "Paterson" back in Glasgow he didn't revert back to "M(a)cKay elsewhere ???
I think that death I mentioned is certainly worth the £12. I have downloaded the 1885 birth cert.
A family member may have registered the death & it IS in Scotland although not Glasgow.
I have highlighted both surnames used & M(a)cKay is most favoured ;D
Annie
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Hi Annie...thankyou...re Borstal, my son came across a list of inmates of Borstal, during his research, and there was a John Lachlan there, but we discovered during our research, that there were quite a few John Lahclans. I don't really know what to think anymore, as the only firm piece of evidence we have of him, is his naval record, which shows he was born on 4/8/1893, and shows that he had deserted, which is the only thing the family knew about him, there could not possibly be 2 people with the same name, deserting the ship. I may look up the info you have given me, and thankyou so much for your help...
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Hi elainemar, ammack,
Still looking but not much joy so far.
On FreeBMD, I have found a marriage of a Lachlan J Mackay to a Irene K Harris on Medway in the quarter Dec 1914, the ref is 2a 1638. Chatham is in the Medway district. Could this be yours?
I notice that there may have been a further marriage to Elizabeth Boyle in 1925, have you got the MC for this, what name did he use for that?
Tom
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Hi All,
I have found a MC for a John Paterson to an Elizabeth Ann Boyle in Calton in 1925, this can be downloaded for 6 credits in total if you do not have it already. Need to confirm parents names on the certificate.
If he is John Lachlan Mackay in Navy, who did he give as parents?
It is very difficult to pin someone down who uses different names, my wife's maternal grandfather used 2 or 3 names, family history says because he was too young to get in Army. He wasn't too young. We think he had married with different name, but we are unable to prove because he moved about Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic as well. He just doesn't want to be found. People who should know all passed on. Hopefully you will get some answers, but very hard to confirm records when you are not aware of what name he used.
Tom
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Hi Annie...the marriage is correct. There were only ever 3 things that we had to go on. Firstly, my grandparents marriage certificate(which is what you found) and on that he states his father as Hector, big question mark there) on that he states his age as 21. Secondly, we had a photo of a group of seamen, with a cross mark above one of them, which is supposed to be my grandfather, then from that, we could see he served on the Prince of Wales in the Royal Navy, so that then led me to contacting the M.O.D, who sent me a few details of a John Mackay, but it was the last one that proved it was him, because it showed he had jumped ship in 1918, which is what the family knew about him. At the time of my grandfathers desertion, my father was only 4 months old, so he never knew his father, so then he was unable to tell me anything other than the knowledge of my grandfathers desertion.
If the John Paterson is really him, we deduced that he had gone back to the original birth surname, due to his desertion, and yes, this one married Elizabeth Boyle in 1925. John,s mothers maiden name was Mackay, which she reverted to after she and Alan had divorced, because he went on to marry someone else. We seem to think my grandfather chose to use his mothers name when he married Irene, my grandmother. Its a heck of an entanglement, is,nt it..........regards Mary Elaine
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To Tom......thankyou, John Patersons parents names, were Alan and Margaret On my grandparents marriage certificate, its only the fathers name that is on there, which he named as Hector......another spoke in the wheel....lol....seems to be a some untruths somewhere.....
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birth date 4/8/1893
There were NO births with ANY surname for a John Lachlan in that year (1893) ANYWHERE in Scotland
Equally........there were NO births ANYWHERE in Scotland in 1893 for a John Lauchlan/Laughlan (with a "u") Pat(t)erson or M(a)cKay ???
Back to the drawing board ::) ;D
I think I will search for him with a middle name "ELUSIVE" :P ;D
Annie
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Hi Annie...thankyou...strange that, as what led us on to the Paterson name, was the Lanarkshire research, who sent me 5 names that had possibilities, we clicked on 2 that seemed right, and the one of those two had the exact birthdate as my grandfather, except it had the surname Paterson, so you can see what has led us this way so far. I hope ive still got that email, I will have a look after....and thankyou for all your efforts, as im on the brink of giving up.....
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Hi Annie....found that email...there were a few names on it, but the one that seemed to match, as what the researcher said, was........Lachlan Paterson Govan 1893........646/02....1066.......
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Hi elainemar,
Take away the Lanarkshire researchers findings, do you have any reason to believe that you are related to Patersons?
I think you need to go back to what you are definite about, certificates and any other proof. It feels like we have been chasing the wild goose.
Tom
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Hi Tom,,,,,I feel very much like yourself, last year we were led along another path by a lady from Australia, the time and money spent on that, was vast, in the end, no relation at all. The only reason for the Paterson stuff, was what the Lanarkshire researcher gave us. The only 2 documents we have, is the marriage certificate, and we have exhausted all areas of that, and the naval record, that we cant get any further info from...so basically...we are stuck...think its now time to give up, particularly as we have been led astray a few times.....I feel sad about this, as all these years we have been searching, have not got us anywhere, and by the way, because of that lady in Australia, I paid a researcher £87...only for him to give us the wrong info......thankyou for what you have done anyway, I very much appreciate it...........still feel so sad :'(
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Hi Annie...thankyou...strange that, as what led us on to the Paterson name, was the Lanarkshire research, who sent me 5 names that had possibilities, we clicked on 2 that seemed right, and the one of those two had the exact birthdate as my grandfather, except it had the surname Paterson, so you can see what has led us this way so far. I hope ive still got that email, I will have a look after....and thankyou for all your efforts, as im on the brink of giving up.....
NOTHING STRANGE.............You told us his name was JOHN regardless of middle names which is irrelevant.
I also mentioned he may have gone by the name Lachlan in one of my posts yet you didn't mention ANYTHING ??? ???
We CANNOT search for John as a forename & come up with LACHLAN...........which is what you have here: "Lachlan Paterson Govan 1893........646/02....1066......."
I am spending £'s on searching but you have not given us ALL the details you have??? ???
Sorry but I don't like being made a fool of i.e. sent on a "wild goose chase".
I don't mind spending £'s on credits within reason as genealogy is my pastime so it's a cheap day for me if I can get someone out of a "hole" or through a "brick wall" for £2 but please appreciate that you are saying one thing but the truth is another & you didn't provide your "evidence" to help my researching :(
In future can you Please post ALL known info. to help other's to help YOU
Annie
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Hi Annie...thankyou...strange that,
as what led us on to the Paterson name, was the Lanarkshire research, who sent me 5 names
one of those two had the exact birthdate as my grandfather, except it had the surname Paterson, so you can see what has led us this way so far.
No......not until NOW!!!
If I knew he was down as Lachlan I would have searched for a death with the name LACHLAN........not JOHN ??? ???
Annie
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Hi Annie....I understand your anger, but I think I did say that the info that the researcher gave me, stated John Lachlan Paterson? im sorry if I didn't make anything clear enough, that wasn't deliberate I can assure you. I asked for info on Paterson in the beginning, because of what the researcher gave me, we felt he may be right, as Johns mothers maiden name was Mackay.....so again it seems we,ve been given wrong information, we had believed it, because we so wanted it to be true I guess. I will gladly refund you any money that you have spent, if you let me know how I can do that.......
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and I did not set out to make a fool of anyone.....my posts and queries were completely genuine....
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Hi Annie...thankyou so very much...im sorry but I didn't give you Johns full Christian names...he is John Lachlan, and his fathers fathers name was also Lachlan
Which is NOT Lachlan John & searches are with "a" forename
£ is not the issue..............you did not supply the info. you had & you asked for JOHN......NOT LACHLAN even after I said he could be Lachlan?
The time is more of the issue as I have been searching for something you knew was wrong...............so why ask when you know it's wrong?
YOU asked for JOHN....the researcher told you LACHLAN!!!
I think you need to read over the whole thread an admit you have been deviating from your original query.
We are only as good as the info. we have to work with so RED HERRINGS won't NET results ::)
Annie
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Elaine,
I was annoyed because you made out you only had basic info. when infact you had so much more which would have been so much easier for me to work with.
Whenever I came up with a thought you were able to counteract it with other info. you already had but didn't share.
My point is...............I would not be looking for info. you already know/have but merely try to elaborate/expand on what you have which you didn't divulge until you knew I had the wrong info?
Deaths on SP:
This would need to be ordered but given his age 78 he was born 1915 ???
1994
PATERSON
JOHN LACHLAN Not Permissible
M 79 GRANTOWN ON SPEY/MORAY
283/00 0018
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Given his age 75 he would have been born 1923 ???
1998
COLLINS JOHN LACHLAN Not Permissible (I have the birth for that John Lachlan MacKay & his mum's maiden name was Collins) He was actually born 1885!!!
M 75 EAST KILBRIDE/SOUTH LANARKSHIRE 575/00 0108
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It seems to me the Lachlan born 1893 is the correct person but again..........you gave us him as John born 1893 ???
Annie
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I have found a marriage of a Lachlan J Mackay to a Irene K Harris
If that marriage is the correct man.......they seem to have had a daughter (McKay) 1916 ?
Inferred County: Kent
Volume Number: 2a Page Number: 1472
Annie
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The family 1901 - 151 Blackburn St, Govan, Lanark
Allan Paterson 31
Margaret Paterson 34
Sarah Paterson 15
Roderick Paterson 11
Lachlan Paterson 6
Flora Paterson 4
Mary Paterson 4
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Marriage
1890
PATERSON ALLAN
MACKAY MARION
BERNERA/INVERNESS
111/03 0003
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Hi Annie...thanks....the Paterson list is right. I just brought out all the stuff ive got here, and on my grandfathers naval record, and also my grandparents marriage certificate, and on that he is stated as Lachlan John Mackay...on the naval record, he is down as Lachlan Jack Mackay, he was called Jack by my grandmother, im told John in Scotland is also referred to as Jack....but as you previously said, its better that we stick to the original info that we have here, and forget the Patersons. I also just found something that I had forgotten about. Many years ago, whilst I was researching my grandfather, the Scottish Ancestry people did a search for me, and they could not find a Lachlan John Mackay born on 4/8/93.....so he is a real enigma...maybe I will never find the truth about him....and maybe its time I gave up on all this too..........
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Elaine,
I'm not being funny or awkward but we need to start at the beginning as this is too contorted so far ??? ???
Do you have the marriage cert for your grandparents (this John/Lachlan)..............if so can you post the details please with the yr/place of marriage, name he gave for himself ??? ???, witnesses & who he has as his father etc?
We can sort out the if's/but's as we stumble upon them as the deviations so far are just a total confusion ???
Thanks,
Annie
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Sorry Elaine I missed your previous post.
How/where did the name Paterson become relevant in this?
Only trying to help as genealogy is based on FACTS.........not Presumption ;D
Annie
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I should also have mentioned that you could write to the MOD.
What names did he give as his parents & their address ???
What was his address at the time.........was he living with his parents ???
You may think I'm nit-picking but genealogy is like forensics & every piece of evidence is crucial in researching.
I love a challenge & this is definitely one ;D
Annie
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Hi Annie...thanks...I was in the middle of giving you a load of information, when my pc decided to install updates, and so my post was lost...I start again.....my grandparents marriage certificate...ok...date of marriage, 7/11/14, Chatham Kent. My grandfather, Lachlan John Mackay age 21, able seaman RN, his father, Hector, property owner, nothing else. mY GRANDMOTHER, Irene Kate Harris, father Richard James Harris, plumber. Witnesses, Frederick and Amy, or Annie, Seager. My grandparents were living at 2 Mount Road Borstal Rochester. My son did try to get information from that, but he was unsuccessful. I have tried on more than one occasion, to obtain further information from the M.0.D, but they say there isn't anymore.
My grandmother had 2 daughters before my father, we only found that out last year. The first daughter was Greta, born in 1914, my son thinks she was stillborn, the second daughter, born in 1916, Irene, also did not live long after birth. My grandmother went back to her parents in Wales, with the only child, my father, after my grandfather deserted.
The Patersons, well, because they had a son, Lachlan, with same birthdate as my grandfather, and because his mothers maiden name was Macky, we assumed my grandfather used that at the time of his marriage, for whatever reason. We think there has been some untruths made by my grandfather, which is why we cannot get to the actual truth. Also we wonder how my grandparents met, as he was from Scotland, and my grandmother from Wales? it really is an enigma Annie, and ive been on this trail for 30 years!..I do realise, that my brain is not functioning so well and so fast, as it was 30 years ago, so thats why maybe ive not given my information as I should have, sorry......im mentally tired now, so I will say thankyou and goodnight.....
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My grandfather, Lachlan John Mackay age 21, able seaman RN, his father, Hector, property owner,
Sorry..............what was Hector's SURNAME please?
Annie
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Hi Annie...sorry....Hectors surname is Mackay.....and you just cant imagine how many Hectors we,ve looked up!! As my grandfather was from Scotland, and my grandmother from Wales, my son suggested there may have been a Mackay family in Cardiff, so he followed that trail for some time, with no luck, that's when this lady from Australia got in touch, and finally led us on the wrong path!!!..........
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Was his father Hector recorded as living or deceased?
Have you traced Lachlan John on any census records with his father Hector?
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hi all,
Just found in 1911 England and Wales Census, at the Rochester Borstal, a Lachlan McKay aged 17 (born abt 1894) in Glasgow, Scotland. Could this be our man before he joined the Navy and prior to marriage?
Need to search for Irene Kate Harris in the same census, if possible.
Tom
PS His occupation was Tuber (Brewery)
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Would the borstal records still be available to see why he was there?
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Hi Sancti,
I googled and came up with the following,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=622125.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=622125.0)
Tom
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Just found in 1911 England and Wales Census, at the Rochester Borstal, a Lachlan McKay aged 17 (born abt 1894) in Glasgow, Scotland. Could this be our man before he joined the Navy and prior to marriage?
EDITED
I did note he was not at home with (one of) his father's (Allan)? & what seems to be a 2nd wife & 2 step kids in England
ADDED
Father's name on marriage was given as Hector MacKay!! Hence the enigma
Annie
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The documentary evidence states his father as Hector. Is there any census records with Lachlan John with Hector?
Does his military records give any further info on his parents?
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The documentary evidence states his father as Hector. Is there any census records with Lachlan John with Hector?
Short answer no ::)
Annie
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Hi all.....my son found a Lachlan Mackay at borstal, that he thought may be our Lachlan, particularly as he married my grandmother in that area...I did mention the Borstal stuff in one of my very earlier posts. I have made several phone calls to the place, and was finally told, that they did not keep records of inmates, only the staff and building. Regarding Hector, my son also did exhaustive searches on that name, and he could not find anything, like yourselves. As mentioned to Annie too, I made several phone calls to the M.O.D some years ago, to ask if there details of parentage of Lachlan and they said they had no more information for me. My son has also been to the Archives at Kew Gardens, and could not find anything, so you can see how much research we have done.
This is why we wonder if the Lachlan Paterson is our man, as the birth date is identical, and his mothers maiden name was Mackay, which she reverted to after separating from Alan, and we did find that he had remarried at a later time. Its the only thing we can think, other than our Lachlan may have declared some untruths about himself and his parentage........Other than that, he really is an enigma.......thankyou all for your help...maybe its time to stop our search, even though we were desperate to know the truth :'(
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Hi all.......another theory of ours, is, if the Lachlan in Borstal was our Lachlan, and he really wanted to get into the navy, he wouldn't want them to know he had been in trouble, else he would have not been accepted, so.....did he use his mothers name for that, and his marriage?? it is quite plausible......and I do think I said he was born in Lanarkshire in one of my earlier posts...so 2 Lachlans there with the same birthdate??? I don't think so.....another reason to consider the Paterson link......??
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Hi elainemar,
The Lachlan in the borstal, and the Lachlan who married your gran, both used Mackay as a surname, so that theory about hiding his borstal past is wrong. I was thinking the Rochester Borstal would be a great recruiting place at that time. Not sure of his crime to get into borstal, it may have been minor, so the Navy would give him a chance.
Tom
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Hi Tom....you may be right :-\.....I guess we were clutching at straws really, its just a shame I was not able get hold of any information about Lachlan being in Borstal......so now there is nothing left for us to delve into........ :'(
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Please don't laugh but.............................
Is it my imagination that there are similarities between this query & another similar topic ???
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709161.new%3btopicseen#new
I don't have time for now to check through it all but things do seem a wee bit strange. No harm in checking out I suppose ::)
Annie
P.S. I have also posted a link on the other page to here :P
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Hi ammack,
Not toosureabout the connection, would you like to explain please.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
As said, no time to go through all facts for now but similarities:
Name John
Disappeared 1950's
Questioning of his surname
Possibly more..............was just a thought meanwhile ???
Annie
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Hi all...I checked that link.....don't think it refers to our John.....
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Hi all......all I can say now, is, thankyou all so much for your help in my search, which again has proved fruitless........either my grandfather has lied about some family information...or maybe the Paterson link is plausible.........thanmkyou.....
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hi all......we finally chased up the Paterson link, and with the help of people on the SFT site, we are almost certain John Paterson, and my grandfather, are one and the same person. I have information about his descendants, which I am now chasing up...so hope they will get in touch with us....thankyou all.....
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Long post, so apologies if someone has posted this and I missed seeing. Anyhow, a Lachlan McKay alias MacKay, bc1893 in Govan, was sentenced in Jan 1909 to a year in prison for burglary in Liverpool, then at discharge in November 1909 he was going to Nautical School in Heswall, Cheshire.
http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/Heswall/