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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: Ravelin on Monday 05 January 15 11:24 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am looking for the marriage between William Humphrey & Sarah.
Their daughter Martha was baptized at Rickmansworth 19th Jan 1794. (She married as Humphries).
I have found two Possible Marriages so far :
William Humphrey & Sarah Keene at Tring, Hertfordshire 20th Nov 1776.
William Humphries & Sarah Taylor at Baldock, Hertfordshire 20th Apr 1775.
The marriage to Sarah Keene stands out because Martha's son David Brister married a Sarah Keen in Rickmansworth 1849.
Ravelin
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Hi
There doesn't seem to be a marriage in the Rickmansworth area for William & Sarah & as the other 2 marriages you have found were quite a while before the birth of Martha I would imagine neither are your couple but that's only my thoughts. :-\ Did they have any other children do you know. ???
I see the 1841 has Martha in Chorleywood, I wonder if William & Sarah could have married in Bucks as Chorleywood is right on the border of Herts & Bucks, Chesham, Amersham & Chenies all being within walking distance back then. I have an ancestor Ann Humphrey who was born & married in Chesham which is what made me wonder. :)
There is a record on my index for Rickmansworth burials of a Sarah Humphrey being buried 18th July 1838 at St Marys Rickmansworth, her age was 79 so making her born c1759, she is the only one in Ricky & unfortunately there is no sign of William which seems strange unless he died before 1800 or elsewhere. She may not be your lady but it may help.
Maddie
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Hello Maddie
Thanks for your help.
Yes those two marriages are quite a long time before Martha's baptism which is a worry. No i have not found any other children of my William & Sarah.
Yes Martha was living in Chorleywood in 1841.
It is indeed possible that William & Sarah married in Buckinghamshire. In my notes i have a William the son of William Humphrey buried 16th Mar 1792 at Chenies, Buckinghamshire. I wonder if he is a sibling of Martha ?
I have not seen that Sarah Humphrey burial at Rickmansworth before. That could well be my Sarah. Good find !
Ravelin
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Hi Ravelin
The burial of young William in Chenies could be a possible sibling of your Martha's. From Family Search there is a William Humphrey christened in Chenies 1765 to a William & Mary so there is a family of Humphrey's living there.
I've had a quick look on archive.org Bucks marriages but haven't spotted William & Sarah yet.
Will keep trying.
Maddie
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William and Sarah at Baldock appear to have a string of children from 1775 to 1788, so seems unlikely (though not impossible I suppose) to be the parents of Martha at Rickmansworth. :(
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Thanks for that baptism and searching the archive.org Bucks marriages Maddie.
I would say it is very possible that the William baptized 1765 at Chenies is my one. It fits well with that William burial of 1792 at Chenies. Martha married into the Brister family and they came from Chenies as well.
Hello maddys52
Thanks for your help.
Yes William & Sarah of Baldock are still having children baptized up to 1788. Only six years before Martha though. I can't rule them out.
Ravelin
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I hadn't noticed that the Brister family came from Chenies, :) that could be the answer. ;)
With regard to the Baldock marriage that one would seem to me to be the least likely as Baldock is the other side of Herts quite a way from Ricky, Tring is closer.
Maddie
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Yes the Brister family connection at Chenies is a good one.
Just found some old notes of mine i forgot i had.
Burials at Harpenden :
Mr William Humphries 6th Jan 1827 age 75
Sarah Humphries widow of Mr William Humphries 26th May 1832 age 86
The Will of Mr William Humphries Gentleman of Harpenden 1827 names his wife as Sarah and three daughters as Mary Ann, Sarah & Elizabeth. No mention of a Martha.
I just seen on the family search website that William & Sarah of Baldock had three daughters named Mary Ann, Sarah & Elizabeth !
Ravelin
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That Humphries family is sounding more & more unlikely. :-\
Will resume the search tomorrow. :D
Maddie
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Yes Maddie. I think it rules out the Baldock couple.
I am wondering if they might of married in London. I have found the following marriages on Family Search :
William Humphryes & Sarah How at St Katherine Creechurch, London 7th Oct 1783.
William Humphries & Sarah Jasper at St Mary, St Marylebone 5th May 1790.
William Humphries & Sarah Rose Phillips at St Leonard, Shoreditch 16th May 1791.
William Humphreys & Sarah Prockter or Prookler at St Martin in the Fields 21st Aug 1792.
Ravelin
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Hi
I did see those marriages in London & wondered but unfortunately they all say "of this parish" for both bride & groom apart from the William to Sarah How, William is said to be of Suffolk.
Might be worth checking to see if there is any chance of the brides being born Rickmansworth or Chenies area but it would be a bit hit & miss. Does seem strange that there is only Martha born to them in Ricky & if that is your Sarah's burial, which we can't be sure of, then she would have been about 39 when Martha was born. :-\
Maddie
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Thanks for looking up those marriages Maddie.
That is a shame that they all say OTP and Suffolk. I suppose that does not mean none of them are my couple though because they only had to be resident in the parish for three weeks (i think) prior to the marriage.
I am beginning to wonder if the name Sarah is incorrect in the Parish Register. I see that a William & Mary were having children baptized in neighbouring Watford & Bushey at this time. Could Sarah be Mary i wonder ?
Found Sarah How baptized at Chesham 1776 and Watford 1747.
Ravelin
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Hi
No problem looking up the marriages, as you say the couples marrying didn't necessarily have to come from where they married only having been resident for 3 weeks before so it is possible one of them could be correct.
It's funny you should say about Sarah perhaps being the wrong name, I had the same thoughts as it wouldn't be the first time for the person recording the marriage to have got it wrong. I wonder though if perhaps it is William that is wrong as there are more births recorded for a Thomas & Sarah in Ricky at the right time & there is a marriage for Thomas Humphry to Sarah Coker in 1779. I also have a burial for a Thomas Humphry in Ricky 1820 aged 74 but it's all conjecture at the mo. ???
Will just have a look at the children born to Thomas & Sarah if only to rule any possible connection to Martha out.
Maddie
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Thanks for the info Maddie. Excellent ! I did not think of William's name being incorrect.
I looked at the baptism dates of Thomas & Sarah's children on family search (below) and see there is a five year gap between 1791 - 1796. That fits perfectly with my Martha's baptism of 1794. Wow, this has got me thinking that Thomas is her father not William !
Hannah 1779
William 1781
Elizabeth 1783
Joseph 1785
Sarah 1787
Charlotte 1789
Mary 1791
Gap of five years
Ann 1796
Daniel 1797
Isabella 1801
Also Martha names one of her sons Thomas. None of her sons are named William.
Ravelin
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Also Martha names one of her sons Thomas. None of her sons are named William.
Now that is interesting, :D I've found some marriages for Thomas & Sarah's offspring so I'll look a little deeper.
Maddie
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Looking at Martha's baptism i see that the baptism above her is for a William son of William Stone. This may of caused the Vicar to make a mistake in entering Martha's father as William as well ?
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That William Stone was baptized the same day as well.
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;D
That mistake is quite possible.
OK here's one marriage, Hannah Humphrey married William Winnet in 1805 Ricky, they are on the 1841 & 51 in Chorleywood Bottom, 51 they actually live next door but one to your David & Sarah Brister. :o
Maddie
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Good find Maddie !
I have not got a subscription to Ancestry or FindMyPast so can't search the census etc myself .
Everything is beginning to fit perfectly.
I am now officially of the belief that Thomas is Martha's father. ;D
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It is certainly looking as if Thomas could be Martha's father. ;D
Just checked son Joseph, he married Ann Tufney in 1809 & is also in Chorleywood on the census.
You should be able to find the marriages on Family Search so if you are stuck looking for the families in the census just come back here & I'll do what I can to help. Hopefully something will turn up to absolutely connect Martha with Thomas, Sarah & kids.
Maddie
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Yes i am now happy to go with Thomas being the father ;D
I will continue to properly search for an actual link with Thomas when i join either Ancestry of FindMyPast.
If i need a census lookup before that i will let you know. Thanks.
Thanks again for all your help Maddie. :)
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You are welcome. ;D
You might find FindMyPast more helpful for the Herts marriage & baptism images ;) but of course it depends on what other counties you are looking at. ::)
Maddie
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Thanks Maddie
Yes i am going to join FindMyPast next for the Hertfordshire & Canterbury collections.
Ravelin
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Found some more old notes of mine from when i searched for William Humphrey.
1861 census :
William Humphrey age 80 born Rickmansworth living next door to Eliza Coster nee Brister (Daughter of Martha and my 3x G Grandmother). William is a visitor of Ann Collier nee Humphery age 64 born Rickmansworth widow of Daniel.
William & Ann must be the children of Thomas & Sarah born 1781 & 1796 respectively. ;D
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Living next door to those above on the 1861 is Charlotte Coster married to William & she is nee Humphrey the daughter of Joseph who is also living with her, all at Quickley Green, Chorleywood. ;D
Looking extremely good to me. ;D ;D
Maddie
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Thanks Maddie. Good find :)
I have a photocopy of that census page but not the next page in which Joseph Humphrey must be listed.
Also living next door to them is George Humphrey and family. He was the son of Joseph as well.
Very interesting how they are all close together.
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The next page to the one you have in 1861 has,
William & Charlotte's children, Emma b 1856, Edward b1859, then Joseph Humphreys (father) b 1788, then his daughter Isabella b 1816, next Thomas Humphreys b 1820, his wife Caroline b 1829 their daughters Ann b 1858 & Rosetta b 1859. Next family is the Sedwell's, Charles & Lottie with 5 kids, then William Coster b 1791 & his wife Hannah b 1791, next to them is David & Sarah Brister with daughter Elizabeth b 1853 & son Daniel b 1855.
From Thomas & Caroline down the address is Chorleywood Bottom which is where Martha lived in 1841. The family have definitely all stayed close.
Maddie
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Thanks for the census info Maddie. :)
The family kept very close to each other didn't they.
I found another interesting link :
David Humpherys & Phillis married 1784 in Rickmansworth and had two children baptized there 1780's.
My Martha named two of her children David & Phillis.
Probable baptism of David is 4 Jul 1736 son of Joseph & Ann at Ashenden, Bucks.
Also of note is :
Thomas Humphery baptized 6 Feb 1750 son of Joseph & Ann at Ashenden, Bucks.
I am thinking that father Thomas was the brother of David and baptized at Ashenden.
Ravelin
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Hi
I see the marriage for David & Phillis & had hoped I might find their burials with perhaps a rough age but they seem to have vanished from Herts. Sadly it looks as though both children Mary & Richard died as infants. :-\
The David you found born in Ashenden seems a bit to old to be marrying in 1784 although neither he nor Phillis appear to have been born in Ricky or Herts come to that. :(
Maddie
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Yes i did think David may be too old to be having children in the 1780's. Still possible though seeing as he would of been about 50 years old.
Sad about the children dying as infants.
Ravelin
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Hi
A little bit more info on the Humphrey name in Ricky, from my Militia List for men between the age of roughly 15 & 45 who were eligible to be called up to fight should the County need them during the years 1757 to about 1800.
David Humphrey, the years 1783 to 1786, a gardener, living Ricky Town.
Jonas Humphrey, just the year 1769, a servant, living Chorleywood.
Richard Humphrey, the years 1760 & 1763, a Wheelright, living Ricky Town.
Thomas Humphrey, the years, 1769, 1772, 1773, 1775, & 1778, a servant, living Chorleywood, 1778D, a bricklayer, living Croxley Green, (the D after year represents the month of December), 1780, a labourer, living in Chorleywood with 1 child, 1781 & 1782 a brickmaker, living Chorleywood, 2 children, 1784 & 1785, a labourer, living Chorleywood with 3 children.
No sign of a William. ;D
Maddie
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Hello Maddie
Thanks very much for the Militia List info. That is an excellent bit of info. :)
Nice to know Thomas's occupation.
David seems to have left Rickansworth c1786.
Thomas & David of Ashenden had a sibling named Richard as well. I guess though seeing as the age was roughly 15 - 45 on the Militia list that might rule out David from Ashenden.
Yes there is no sign of a William which further points to the fact that he never existed ! ;D
Ravelin
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Hi Ravelin
I have just found something whilst looking through your Humphrey's, I'm not sure yet but I think we might have a connection. :o
My 2rd Grt Grandmother was Sarah Humphreys, daughter of Edmund & Mary nee Saunders. Sarah was born in 1817 Cholesbury & married David Dwight (2rd Grt Grandfather) in Chesham. Her mother Mary Humphreys nee Saunders had a sister Sarah born 1792 in Rickmansworth, Mary was born 1795 in Ricky, Sarah Saunders married James Rogers in 1829 in Ricky. In 1851 this same Sarah Rogers now a widow is a lodger along with your William Humphrey's in the household of his sister Ann Collier. ??? Sarah is also living in close proximity to all your Humphrey's in 1841.
Can this be a coincidence or is my Edmund connected to your Humphrey family somehow. :-\
I still have more to dig up & will let you know if I find anything although I do have Edmund's parents as Henry & Mary nee Gurney who married 1786 in Chesham.
Maddie
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Hello Maddie
I didn't know you also had a Humphrey family in the area.
We very well could have the same Humphrey family. We know definitely that a member of your family is living with members of my family. That in itself is quite amazing !
Yes please let me know if you are able to make a connection between our Humphrey families.
Ravelin
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Found the following info from the free index on Ancestry that could be the reason for no burial found for David Humphrey :
Criminal Registers :
Name: David Humphreys
Date of Trial: Apr 1808
Trial Year: 1808
Location of Trial: Hertfordshire, England
Sentence: Transportation
UK, Prison Hulk Registers and Letter Books, 1802-1849 :
Name: David Humphreys
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1766
Date Received: 16 May 1808
Ship: Prudentia
Place Moored: Woolwich
Date Convicted: 25 Apr 1808
Place Convicted: Hertford
I don't have a subscription to Ancestry so can't look at the full info yet.
Ravelin
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Hi again
I've checked the Criminal Register & Prison Hulk info for you, David was convicted of Larceny & although the sentence was transportation he is recorded as dying on the 5th June 1809 aged 42 aboard the Hulk Prudentia. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any more info to confirm just who this David Humphreys was or where in Hertfordshire he came from, if at all. ???
No link yet found for my Humphreys to yours but I'm still going through them & keep hitting "brick walls" or getting distracted, as you do. ;D
Maddie
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Hello Maddie
Thanks for looking up David's Criminal Register & Prison Hulk records.
I thought it was strange that i could not find any records of him being transported to Australia. At least we know he was born c1767 now. I just found out that he would of been buried at the Convict's Burial Ground at Woolwich Arsenal in an unmarked grave and no record of the burial would have been made. He must be connected to my Humphrey's because my Martha names two of her children David & Phillis.
I am pretty sure also that Sarah Coker the wife of Thomas Humphrey was baptised at Kings Langley 24 Feb 1760 daughter of John Coker & Susannah Downs.
Yes plenty of brick walls. ;D
Ravelin
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Hi
Could these be his parent's marriage and his own?
[ HALS ]
David Humphreys / Elizabeth Patmore
Ware St Mary 13 Feb 1765
David Humphreys / Fanny Wand
Ware St Mary 20 Apr 1803
Ray
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Hello Ray
Thanks for your help.
I have not seen that David Humphreys / Elizabeth Patmore marriage before. I can't find any children born to that couple on family search. They could well be his parents though seeing as David was not a very common name at the time.
That David & Fanny couple could well be the David that was sent to prison in 1808 because their last child baptised was in Feb 1809 at Ware according to family search.
Ravelin