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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: pollyhow on Tuesday 06 January 15 01:04 GMT (UK)
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I’m seeking confirmation on early life of my ancestor Marion Woodburn, who died New Zealand 1908. Death certificate shows she was 92, born Scotland, father’s surname Woodburn (a weaver), mother’s name unknown. Have found birth record showing Marion Woodburn born 3 Oct 1819 West Kilbride, Ayr to parents John Woodburn and Mary Brown. Also marriage record for parents 20 Jun 1818, Kilmaurs, Ayr. Was wondering can I be sure I have the right parents for Marion? Have read many old records have been lost. Can’t find more births for parents John Woodburn/Mary Brown. Also can't find census record for them. Don’t know what became of them after Marion born. Have 1841 census for a Marion Woodburn, aged 20, female servant, living in household Grange Street, Kilmarnock with two other Woodburns named Jessie aged 30 and Willie aged 25 (both females) but can’t be sure this is correct Marion or who Jessie and Willie were. Do have Marion’s marriage record. She married Thomas McCulloch, Kilmarnock, Ayr on 16 Dec 1845. They migrated to Australia 1848 on Mahomed Shah along with daughter Mary (born 1843 – no birth record for her).[/font][/size][/size][/size][/size]
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Nothing about Marion's father's name on her 1845 marriage record I suppose? :-\
So was daur Mary was born in 1843 before Marion married? Have you checked for her birth under the surname Woodburn and McCulloch (and variations)?
Is there any indication on any records in NZ or Australia which part of Scotland Marion was from?
Presumably you have found that the Ayrshire records fit with the age of your Marion hence your belief this may be her birth and parents?
Have you checked elsewhere in Scotland for the birth of a Marion Woodburn? You may just have to use a process of elimination - eg if you can only find one Marion Woodburn in the whole of Scotland born in the right time frame and only one on the 1841 census, then it may be that she is yours.
Have you looked for deaths for John Woodburn and Mary Brown - not that that will help you determine if they are parents of Marion, but if they both died young it may explain why you can't find any siblings for Marion and why she was living with possibly related Woodburns in 1841.
The fact that she named her daughter Mary (possibly after her possible mother Mary Brown) adds a bit of weight to the theory that you have found the correct parents, however with Mary being such a common name, it may just be coincidence. Did she name any sons John? :-\
One last thought - as you probably know the Scottish used many names interchangably, so it might be worth considering other names and variations of Marion ...
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Hi,
The two Woodburns at Grange Street - Jessie and Willie may not be related to Marion (could be a co-incidence). They are both of independent means ....she is a servant.
Willie Woodburn also seems to be on the 1851 and 1861 Census....can't see her on 1871 .So assuming she died in Scotland there should be a death record and you could see who her parents were.
Looby :)
Added- Suggested you look at Willie's parents to see if they were John Woodburn and Mary Brown but have just realised that you are not even sure that this couple are Marion's parents. Doh! Too late at night for me ....should be sleeping ;)
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No, that is a good idea Looby. IF Willie's parents are John Woodburn and Mary Brown then it's a big coincidence that Marion is living with them and it is possible she has the same parents. It may be that Jessie and Willie are related more distantly and are not siblings of Marion. BUT it is definitely worth tracing them and their parents in case their is a connection a generation or two back. maybe they are Aunts or Great Aunts, Cousins ..... :-\ It seems too much of a coincidence to ignore.
(presumably Willie will be Wilhelmina or similar)
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Hi Ruskie,
Yes Willie could be short for Wilhelmina or it could just be Willie ??? Maybe the parents really wanted a boy? I'm sure I've found her in 1851 living at Townhead Cottage , Symington Ayrshire ( not that far outside Kilmarnock)
Willie C Woodburn F Unmarried 38 Visitor born Ayrshire Kilmarnock
She's staying with a Janet Caldwell F Unmarried 45 Annuitant born Ayrshire Kilmarnock
there is also a child John Woodburn M Visitor 7 Born Briitish East Indies
and a servant Helen Roger age 17 of Symington.
I had wondered if the above Janet Caldwell was perhaps a widowed Jessie Woodburn?? But Janet is recorded as unmarried.
Looby :)
Added - I'm quite sure this is young John Woodburn's birth https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG3X-WNY
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My thanks to both of you for putting so much thought into trying to help me. Unfortunately I tried following up with your suggestions on Jessie and Willie Woodburn but couldn’t come up with anything. :(
Meanwhile I decided to search for Thomas McCulloch in the 1841 census and found a Thomas McCulloch, aged 20, carpet weaver, living in Eglinton Street, Gorbals, Lanarkshire, born outside Census County. I was interested when I saw this record because I remember having seen an 1841 record for a John and Mary Woodburn who lived in Gorbals, and I looked up this record again. They lived in Portugal Street, Gorbals, both aged 40, John a labourer and Mary a sewer. There were two younger Woodburns living with them – William and George both aged 15, both masons. Also living with them was James Brown aged 15, a mason. The name Brown rang a bell because that was the maiden name of the Mary who married John Woodburn in 1818. This household were all born outside Census County. So it is just possible that this John and Mary living in Gorbals in 1841 were my ancestor Marion’s parents and it was through them living in Gorbals that enabled Marion to meet Thomas McCulloch who also lived in Gorbals at that time. Another little thought is that Marion’s death registration shows her father to be a weaver. Maybe this Gorbals John Woodburn worked in the same factory where Thomas McCulloch was a carpet weaver? The problem is I have no idea how to prove any of this. Any thoughts?
Polly
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Hi Polly,
Sorry that Jessie and Willie came to nothing. Not sure they would be related to your Marion anyway ;).
I'm just checking something out and will post again shortly
Looby :)
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Hi again, The couple you have found on the 1841 Census at the Gorbals are in fact John Woodburn and Martha Smith married Loudoun Ayrshire 4 Jan 1819.https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT2D-DYW
Martha may have also been called Mary or there has been an error on the Census
She is widowed by the 1851 Census and is living at 20 Clyde Bank, Barony Glasgow.
Martha Woodburn Widow 51 Eating House Keeper born Ayrshire, Loudoun
George Woodburn U Son 26 Spirit Merchant born " "
Mary Woodburn U Dau 24 General Servant born " , Kilmarnock
Mary Brown Grandau 4 Eating House Keepers Dau Born Lanarkshire Glasgow.
Brother William on the 1841 is 10 years later married and living in Carluke. Lanarkshire.
He's still a Mason aged 29 born Loudoun Ayrshire , is married to a Frances and has 3 children
Frances dau 3, John son 1 and Martha dau 1 month.
So could these folk be related to Marrion?? Can I ask what names did she give her own children and in what order please?
Looby :)
PS. Interestingly I was born and still live in the area which was the Loudoun Parish of Ayrshire .
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Hi Polly,
One bit of positive news :D. The Thomas McCulloch carpet weaver you found on the 1841 in the Gorbals.
BORLAND Robert M 30 Carpet Weaver Outside Census County (1841)
BORLAND Agnes F 25 Outside Census County (1841)
BORLAND Agnes F 20 Outside Census County (1841)
BORLAND James M 4 Outside Census County (1841)
MCCULLOCH Thomas M 20 Carpet Weaver Outside Census County (1841)
Well it looks like the Borland family were from Kilmarnock and returned there at some point before 1851 cos here they are again at Titchfield Street in Kilmarnock 1851-
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
BORLAND Robt Head M M 40 Carpet Weaver Ayrshire - Kilmarnock
BORLAND Agnes Wife M F 35 Millener Ayrshire - Irvine
BORLAND Agnes Sister U F 34 Sewer In Receip Of Par Relief Ayrshire - Kilmarnock
ADAMS Elizebeth Orphan - F 8 Scholar In Receipt Parish Rel Ayrshire - Kilmarnock
If Thomas returned too that could be when he met and married Marion Woodburn :)
We are getting somewhere!!
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
How interesting that you live in what was the Loudoun area. I live in New Zealand – my ancestors braved the journey to the Antipodes in one of those rickety old sailing ships.:o
Marion had two husbands. The first, Thomas McCulloch, died shortly after they immigrated to Australia in July 1848 (he drowned while working on a bridge being built across the Yarra River, Melbourne). Her second husband was my ancestor, Andrew McEwin (Scottish born). Marion and Andrew moved to New Zealand in the mid-1850s. Marion’s children were Mary McCulloch, Thomas McCulloch, James McEwin, Andrew McEwin (died in infancy), John Woodburn McEwin, Margaret Esther McEwin, George Irving McEwin and Martha McEwin. Andrew McEwin came from a large family of 10 sons and one daughter, and their names included James, John, Margaret and George, but I can't account for the names "Irving" or "Martha."
That was a good thought of yours to look for the family the Thomas McCulloch possibility lived with. I wonder when they returned to Kilmarnock? Thomas and Marion's daughter Mary was born about 1843. The McCulloch family passenger record on the “Mahomed Shah” (1848) shows Thomas, aged 28, labourer; Marion (misspelled “Mary Anne”), aged 27, wife; Mary, aged 5, daughter. The native place for all was Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland; they were Presbyterian; Thomas and “Mary Anne” could read and write, and Mary could read.
Be good to find a birth record for Mary but doesn’t seem to be one there. Wonder why they didn’t marry around the time she was born.???
Polly
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Hi Polly,
What a shame about poor old Thomas....but of course if Marion hadn't married Andrew.....no you! ;D
I find Mary's children's names interesting. You probably know of the Scottish tradition of naming children which lasted over many years ( not everyone did it but it can be a guide to grandparents).
First son - after father's father. First daughter - after mother's mother
Second son - after mother's father. Second daughter - after father's mother
Third son - after father Third daughter - after mother
Of course the third child could be called something else if the parents name matched a grandparents! Names of children who died were often reused with the next birth depending on baby's sex.
Now Mary McCulloch being born circa 1843 and the couple marrying 1845 was not as unusual for the time as you might think! She might not even be Thomas's child :o but could have been given his name after the couple's marriage. Unfortunately it was not compulsory till 1855 to register BMDs . Birth's prior to this date are birth/baptism records from Old Parish Records....and yes not all records have survived. But equally not everyone had their child baptised and therefore recorded as there was a cost. There is a chance that Marion was pulled up before the Kirk Session for having a child out of wedlock - but those records are not online. Look under Established Church- Kirk Session records in this link - https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Kilmarnock,_Ayr,_Scotland.
Kirk Session records are not the easiest to search and read.
Looby :)
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Marion had two husbands. The first, Thomas McCulloch, died shortly after they immigrated to Australia in July 1848 (he drowned while working on a bridge being built across the Yarra River, Melbourne). Her second husband was my ancestor, Andrew McEwin (Scottish born). Marion and Andrew moved to New Zealand in the mid-1850s. Marion’s children were Mary McCulloch, Thomas McCulloch, James McEwin, Andrew McEwin (died in infancy), John Woodburn McEwin, Margaret Esther McEwin, George Irving McEwin and Martha McEwin. Andrew McEwin came from a large family of 10 sons and one daughter, and their names included James, John, Margaret and George, but I can't account for the names "Irving" or "Martha."
Split my loooong reply in two.
Back to Marion's children.
First daughter could have been called after her mother - Mary ??
First son could have been called after Thomas McCulloch's father - Thomas??
First son with Andrew McEwin - James . Is that Andrew's father's name?
Second son - Andrew - after father
Third son John Woodburn McEwan - now I find that use of Woodburn as a middle name for this son when she hasn't used it before interesting and would strengthen my belief that Marion's father was a John Woodburn.
First daughter with Andrew McEwin - Margaret Esther - Was Andrew's mother Margaret?
Fourth son George Irving McEwin - McEwin family forename.
Second daughter Martha McEwan - no connection ...yet!
Although the Woodburn family in Glasgow and with Ayrshire origins have a Mother Martha and a son George :)
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
So true about poor old Thomas. Funny how our very existence depends on things happening by chance.
I had wondered about the father of Mary – whether it was Thomas or not. I did click on that website you posted but got a bit lost in there.:-[ But I somehow don’t feel too confident that I will find a record for Mary.
Just seen your latest posting. Interesting what you said about Scottish tradition of naming children. Thanks for that. Yes, looks like first daughter was named after Marion's mother Mary. First son possibly named after Thomas McCulloch’s father. James (my great-grandfather) was not named after his father’s father, but Andrew did have a brother called James (Andrew’s father’s name was John). Yes, Andrew’s second son got his name. The third son got Andrew’s father’s (and brother’s) name of John plus the second Christian name “Woodburn”. But, of course, John was probably also named after Marion’s father, whose name we think is John. The next child was Margaret Hester, and yes, she did get her father’s mother’s names of Margaret Esther (Esther was sometimes spelt “Hester”). Fourth son was George Irving – George was the name of one of Andrew’s brothers.
I see what you say about the John Woodburn/Martha Smith partnership. Their marriage record shows they married on 4 Jan 1817 in Loudoun Parish. There are birth records for three children: Janet born 18 May 1817, Alexander born 14 Mar 1819 and William born 24 Feb 1822 (all born in Loudoun). Can’t see birth records for children George or Mary (whose names came up in the census records). Don’t think they had a Marion, unless she was born after 1822 or before they married in Jan 1817. But there could be some connection there. Martha is not such a common name and Marion has felt led to use it when she named her last child.
Polly :)
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Hi again Looby :D
I have looked again at the census results for the Woodburns. In the 1851 census for Jessie Woodburn aged 70 the second listing is for Agnes Woodburn, granddaughter, aged 5 and it says she was born “Overseas – British – East Indies.” Another 1851 census record shows a Janet Caldwell aged 45. Also listed is Willie C Woodburn, visitor aged 38. The third listing in that record is for John Woodburn, visitor, aged 7, born “Overseas – British – East Indies.”
Seems the two children were born at the same place so are probably siblings, and Jessie Woodburn aged 70 was their grandmother. I see the birth record from FamilySearch shows their father was David Woodburn. After much research I found Jessie Woodburn was born Janet Caldwell in 1781 and married a David Woodburn. I found four birth records for their children - Ann Woodburn (born 1798), Agnes Woodburn (born 1801), John Woodburn (born 1802) and David Woodburn (born 1805). It would have been ideal if the son John Woodburn was the same John Woodburn who married Mary Brown in June 1818 and had the daughter Marion– then I could say that Marion Woodburn was the granddaughter of this Janet “Jessie” Woodburn. But unfortunately John Woodburn, son of Janet Caldwell and David Woodburn, was born in April 1802 so that would have made him only 16 if he had been the one who married Mary Brown in June 1818. :o Could be possible, I guess, but not likely.
I searched for a death record for this John Woodburn, son of David and “Jessie” Woodburn, born 1802, and thought I had found one. There was a John Woodburn who died in 1873 was aged 71. When I saw the image I found he was (what looked like - it was hard to read) a “muslin weaver,” he was widower of Agnes Woodburn, his father was William Woodburn and his mother was Margaret Woodburn (maiden surname Borland). I was disappointed because he was not the son of David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell. It did look like this John Woodburn had married a woman of the same surname and I thought maybe this Agnes Woodburn (his wife) was the daughter David and “Jessie” had in 1901. I followed this lead but unfortunately it led nowhere.
I have come to a brick wall. Have you any thoughts?
No hurry.
Polly :)
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Gosh, Where to begin ::)
You've done a lot of work Polly - I looked at some of those records too and I'm not convinced Marion was related the Janet/ Jessie Woodburn and her extended family. I am leaning towards the theory that she was employed by Jessie and Willie Woodburn , who seem to be women of independent means. Perhaps she is distantly related - or it's just a co-incidence.
BTW- for future reference - the name Willie was possibly pronounced Wylie.
I suggest you go back to what you know for sure - and you know that your Marion married Thomas McCulloch in Kilmarnock on 16th Dec 1845. Can I ask, have you looked at the original handwritten register on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk ?
Although record keeping before 1855 (when compulsory registration came in to force) was patchy, it could be worth looking at this record. It may have another name (i.e father's name) or the name of the place the bride/groom lived. Or it could have absolutely nothing beyond what you know already.
Looby :)
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Thanks for such a quick reply Looby. It must be late at night where you are.
I never got much info at all from the image I viewed in ScotlandsPeople. Just a marriage register entry saying “Kilmarnock 16 December 1845. Thomas McCulloch in Morton Place and Marion Woodburn near Bonnyhill were proclaimed on the three preceding Sabbaths and were married this day by the Revd Mr Young.” Unfortunately no personal details about either party, apart from where they lived and that didn’t mean much to me.
You could be right about Marion not being closely related to the other Woodburns in the census records. I think I will have to accept that John Woodburn and Mary Brown are her parents since it is the only birth/baptismal record for a Marion Woodburn born around that time (I have been saying this for some time but finally I have to accept it).
But just what happened to the parents after Marion’s birth is a mystery. :-\ It may have to be left for a future researcher to find the answer to this.
Bye for now
Polly :)
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Good Morning - well it is in Ayrshire :)
Thanks for the marriage info Polly.
Firstly Thomas's address on the parish register - Morton Place was a stone's through from Grange Street where Marion Woodburn (who looks extremely likely to be your ancestor ) worked.
Kilmarnock, 1839 had according to the Statistical Accounts for Scotland which can be viewed for free at www.edina.ac.uk 6 carpet factories (and indeed the trade flourished for many years, sadly all gone now) - so Thomas as a carpet weaver must have returned to Kilmarnock for work. Indeed the street he's living in- Morton Place - is probably named after Thomas Morton, also resident there in 1841/1851. He was an engineer who invented a barrel loom which revolutionised the carpet industry.
Although there are only 162 Woodburns living in Ayrshire according to the 1841 Census , I cannot see a relationship with any of them to Marion ???
John and Mary (nee Brown) see to have vanished. There are certainly no more births after Marion in 1819 and that would make me suspect that one or both of them could had died not long after. Looking for a remarriage for Mary Brown would take a lot of time, patience and cash and my turn up naught. A remarriage for John Woodburn might be able to be traced.
In fact this couple here interested me https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT26-G25
John Woodburn and Lily/Lilias/Lelia McSkimming married in 1824 at Maybole.
This couple are living at Cottage Inn, Kilmarnock on the 1841 Census -
WOODBURN John M 40 Agricultural Labourer
WOODBURN Lilly F 35
WOODBURN John M 12
WOODBURN Janet F 8
WOODBURN Maryann F 5
WOODBURN Alexander M 2m
All are born in Ayrshire.
Now Polly what really has excited me ;D about this family is, and I've just discovered this as I bob back and forth researching and typing this reply is.......
that 2 entries along from them on the Census are a family called Paton whose address is Bonnihill
From what I can glean Bonnyhill is a rural location on a back road between a village called Crookedholm(which sits on the outskirts of Kilmarnock) and a town called Galston. I walked this very road during the summer. It would have been part of Kilmarnock Parish.
So could this family be Marion's and could Cottage Inn near Bonnihill be her home address when she's not in service.
This Woodburn couple are still in roughly the same area on the 1851 Census -
Holms Cottage, Kilmarnock - again rural
WOODBURN John Head M M 54 Agricultural Labourer Ayrshire - Craige
WOODBURN Lilias Wife M F 50 Ayrshire - Ayr
WOODBURN Mary Dau U F 15 Hand Sewer Ayrshire - Kilmarnock
WOODBURN Alexander Son U M 10 Scholar Ayrshire - Kilmarnock
WOODBURN Thomas Son U M 7 Scholar Ayrshire - Kilmarnock
I realise this John is not a weaver, but as this infornation is provided on Marion's death cert it may not be correct.
Certainly the John Woodburn who marries in Kilmaurs, and has a child in West Kilbride could have been an Ag Lab following work. That could also have taken him south to Maybole (where John Woodburn above marries) and then back to Kilmarnock area. And it has to be remembered that at this period many rural people as well as townsfolk would be hand loom weaving too.
I think this couple need to be looked at closer. They are certainly your best bet so far.
Phew, epic post comes to a close.
Better get on with my morning now.....oops it's 12 noon. :)
Speak later,
Looby
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Thank you for your new and exciting information Looby.:-* It has given me lots to think about. Maybe it’s not quite time yet to give up my search.
I agree with you about John Woodburn and Mary Brown. They seemed to, as it were, disappear of the radar when Marion was born. I can’t even find their death records. I tried searching in ScotlandsPeople but, having such common names, it could end up an expensive task to look at all the images that may possibly belong to them. I hadn’t thought of searching for a remarriage for Mary Brown or John Woodburn. I may have to give ScotlandsPeople some more money after all, so I can look into this.
I still have a niggling thought that the birth record we have for Marion (i.e. born 3 Oct 1819 to parents John Woodburn and Mary Brown) isn’t necessarily my ancestor. I remember what you said earlier about record keeping before 1855 being patchy. Maybe “my” Marion’s birth or baptism wasn’t recorded and the birth record we have belongs to another Marion Woodburn? Marion's death registration says she was 92 when she died (in Nov 1908) and her headstone inscription says she was 90 years, but maybe she wasn't as old as people thought? She could have been born to a couple who married in the early 1820s. It's worth considering anyway.
I was interested in your findings about the couple in Holms Cottage, Kilmarnock. But I can’t get out of my head that Marion’s death registration showed her father to be a weaver. Her grandson was the informant. Maybe he had heard Marion speak about it.
Fancy Morton Place being near Grange Street – that is good to know. Great work on your part to find this out. It looks like that 1841 census record was the correct Marion.
Now that I have your new information I will do a bit more investigation and get back later.
Bye for now
Polly :)
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A snowy morning here on the West Coast of Scotland. A perfect morning for strong coffee, buttered toast and family history research :P
Hi Polly,
Just a few comments regarding your last post - then more new info !!!
Firstly regarding remarriage of a widow/ widower - in my personal FH experience and with helping others at Rootschat, I find that people often remarried very swiftly after the death of a partner, especially if there were young children. Widows needed the financial support, widowers needed a child-rearer and housekeeper.
Secondly, I understand your niggling doubt re. Marion Woodburn born 1819 to John Woodburn and Mary Brown being your Marion. Indeed there could have been another 10 Marions born around that time whose births were not recorded on OPRs or the records are lost.
I am positive the Marion Woodburn aged 20 on the 1841 Census is your ancestor - there are not that many Marion Woodburns on the 1841 Census - in fact in the whole of Scotland there are only 3 Marion/Marian Woodburns and they all live in Kilmarnock . One is 45, one is 20 and one is 9.
There is also a Mirron Woodburn aged 9 at Ochiltree Ayrshire.
People's ages on the 1841 Census can be a bit out. Adults had been instructed to round their ages down to the nearest 0 or 5. Some did. Some rounded up. Some ignored the instruction and gave their exact age. But you will find on that Census that most folk are ?0 years or ?5 years .
Thirdly, phew.... your Marion actually may not have known exactly what age she was :-\ . People didn't have birth certificates to prove their age, they were working from a young age and birthdays would be no big deal. It is not unusual for a persons age to vary from record to record and on death records the info is always as good as the knowledge/memory of the person who provided it.
On her death cert in 1908 her age is given as 92 meaning a birth in 1815/1816 (depending on time of year)
On her headstone her age is 90 meaning a birth in 1817/1818.
On the ship to Australia 1848 she is 27 meaning a birth of 1820/1821
On 1841 Census she is 20 ( but that could have been rounded down or up) meaning a birth in 1820/1821.
Marion called her first daughter Mary - there is a very good chance therefore her mother was a Mary - wish there was a birth record for this :'(
Marion called her fourth son John Woodburn McEwin - the use of the surname Woodburn with this son would incline me to think that the forename John was his grandfather's name. She has not used it with 3 earlier sons and she didn't use it again.
Going to split the posts this is one huge reply ;D
Looby
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Back again
And last comment. Playing devil's advocate here - regarding the death registration in NZ. Her father's occupation has been recorded as a weaver, his name .....Woodburn, mother unknown. So the informant didn't know Marion's father's forename or her mother's name. Why would he be 100% certain of her father's occupation? Yes maybe he did hear her speak of her father being a weaver. Or maybe he heard her speak of her first husband being a weaver :-\
Out of curiosity this morning when I read your post I carried out an experiment ;D and asked my 2 sons (late teens/early 20s) what any of their great grandfathers did for a living. Out of 4 great-grandfathers my sons only ever met 2 and they died when they were under 10. The other 2 died before they were born.
My boys thought long and hard - and got 1 out the 4 correct.
They said my OHs paternal grandfather was a (very early) lorry driver and were correct. But then that was also occupation of their grandfather/g-uncles and my OH ( lorries run in the blood :D )
OHs Maternal grandfather (they knew him briefly) - they said might have been a soldier - wrong he was a baggage handler/cargo handler at an airport although he did serve in army WW2
My paternal grandfather (they knew him longest) they said was a trademan of some sort....maybe a joiner...wrong he was a railway guard all his life.
My maternal grandfather they said was maybe a miner.....coal mining was prolific here and although there were miners in wider family ....he worked in a factory.
Not scientific I know but it proves to me if my mother or inlaws died and my sons were informants they wouldn't have a clue!!
Hope you don't mind my ramblings Polly and apologies if you are already aware of the info I've given. I do have another piece of fresh info but will need to fill you in later as I need to go out now.
Looby
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I have been following this exchange with interest because my paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Woodburn (1869 - 1940). I have traced her ancestry back to William Woodburn and Isabel Hamilton, married at Loudon in 1727. The family were tenant farmers of Loudon Mains for several generations but later spread out all over Ayrshire, and then to Glasgow and Edinburgh. There are two Marion Woodburns in my tree but both died in infancy, one after the other. The fact that both were given the name of Marion suggests that there was a Marion that the parents wished to honour but I cannot say who that was.
A distant relative was clever enough to extract from Scots Origins all of the entries in which a Woodburn was listed and I have poured over these sheets to see whether I could help in this case. Not much joy I'm afraid but I do have a couple of observations which may assist, now or later:
Re siblings of Marion, assuming her parents were John Woodburn and Mary Brown: I could find none but I did find christenings of two other children of a Mary Brown. 28 Dec, 1824; John Woodburn; to Father: George Woodburn; Mother Mary Brown Reg. at Stonehouse. and 4 Oct, 1826 George Woodburn with the same parents. I could not find a marriage of this couple but perhaps they did not marry, possibly because marriage would have been unlawful if (father) John and (father) George were brothers. Pure speculation on my part.
I seems probable that John Woodburn and Janet Caldwell were the grandparents of young John (the visitor in 1851) through their son, David. However, the Janet Caldwell he was visiting would not seem to be the Janet Caldwell who was his grandmother because the ages do not match.
Not sure whether this was already noted, but there is a marriage of John Woodburn and Mary Brown on 20 June 1818 Reg. Kilmaurs.
I have a Margaret Borland on my tree somewhere but I cannot find her at the moment. I don't think she is of interest here but I will keep looking. Several Borlands married Woodburns.
I doubt that I have been of much help but you never know where additional information might lead. I shall continue to follow with interest.
Ian
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Hi Looby
Thanks for all the thought you are putting into this. That was an interesting experiment you did with your sons.8) You are quite right, of course. Not many young people are interested in their ancestors. Chances are Marion’s grandson was in that category as well, so his information is probably not that reliable.
I am feeling a bit more discouraged today.:'( Have spent a lot of time in ScotlandsPeople and wasted a lot of money getting nowhere. I did find one remote possibility for Marion’s father's death:
“1831 Aug 30
John Woodburn weaver in Greenholm son of William Woodburn weaver in Greenholm”
Very little to go by I know, but it was the closest I could find. No age mentioned or wife, only father and profession. Do you know if these registers usually mentioned a spouse if there was one??? I searched for a remarriage for Mary and saw there was a Mary Woodburn who married a John McAdam in 1834. I then paid for an image of that marriage – but it just said:
“16th March 1834
John McAdam & Mary Woodburn both in this Parish
(3 Sabbaths)”
(Many entries on the page had “Galston” put in front of the date)
I saw a John McAdam with wife Mary and five-year-old daughter Mary in the 1841 census. They lived in Dumbarton, but I noticed in the 1851 census that all three of them were born in Greenock, Renfrewshire, so that can’t have been the Mary Brown who married John Woodburn in 1818. She seems to have been centred in Ayrshire.
So it looks like it is back to square one again. I don’t know if I should waste more time studying John Woodburn who died in Greenholm in 1831. The information in the record just doesn’t give me enough to reassure me it is him.
I think you are right about that 1841 census record being the correct Marion. It could be a foundation stone to help build up a big picture. But at the moment that picture has so many gaps in it.
Strange to think you are having snow over there at the moment. Our weather here has been nice and warm. Too hot for me some days. We’re having a good summer.
Looking forward to finding out the fresh info you have.
Polly :)
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Hi IanB ,
I'm sure Polly will appreciate your input :)
The name Woodburn certainly has strong Ayrshire (Kilmarnock & Loudoun parish) connections.
How interesting that your ancestors farmed Loudoun Mains Farm. I know it well :) as I fairly close by.
Like you I do wonder if all these Woodburns are connected, and it's interesting that you have found what appears to be 2 illegitimate births to a Mary Brown at Stonehouse, Lanarkshire.
This is actually getting complicated and interesting at the same time.
There are Woodburns in Stonehouse on 1841 Census and it may be worth looking at them.
However, just reminding myself and everyone else :)we don't know for certain that Marion's mother was a Mary Brown or that her father was a John. All we have from her death cert is the her father was a Woodburn and he was a weaver.
The occupation could be right and then again the informant could easily have been wrong .
Dealing with the Stonehouse family briefly first - There are 3 births to a George Woodburn and Mary Brown over a 22 year period.
George 2 Dec 1803 John 28 Dec 1824 and George 4 Oct 1826
This couple above may or may not have been married - the OPR may no longer exist.
I couldn't see this couple on Census 1841
I did see this however
King Street Stonehouse
BROWN Margaret F 65 Silk Winder Outside Census County (1841)
WOODBURN John M 15 Silk Weaver Lanarkshire
WOODBURN James M 8 Lanarkshire
Unfortunately with 1841 no relationship is recorded so we don't know who this woman is to these 2 boys.
Keeping digging. I'll be back :P
Looby :)
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Hi Polly and also Ian
What we do know is that Marion Woodburn married Thomas McCulloch in 1845 at Kilmarnock
Thomas McCulloch in Morton Place and Marion Woodburn near Bonnyhill were proclaimed on the three preceding Sabbaths and were married this day by the Revd Mr Young.
This interested me that Marion lived near Bonnyhill.
Bonnyhill appears to have been a cottage/farm/location between Crookedholm and Galston - a quiet backroad . It is a road I have walked several times in our summer. And next time I walk it you can bet I'll be looking for Cottage Inn/Bonnihill etc. I found a reference to it here on this very interesting memoir/historical piece.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/kilmarnock/part2c14.htm
The Woodburn family I noted earlier John and Lily/Lilias with children are at Cottage Inn which sits along this road. 2 properties along on the Census is the Paton family at Bonnihill and 2 properties along from that is another Woodburn family !!
They live at Ralstonhill -which was and still is a farm.
WOODBURN George M 60 Farmer
WOODBURN Agnes F 45
WOODBURN James M 25
WOODBURN John M 20
WOODBURN Janet F 15
WOODBURN Agnes F 15
WOODBURN Wm M 14 Cloth Shop Apprentice
WOODBURN Mary F 13
WOODBURN Jean F 11
MOONEY Mary F 25 Female Servant
All are Ayrshire born exexpt their servant who was born in Ireland.
Now is Marion connected to this family.
I tend to think her main connection is with the John & Lily family.
Ralston Hill had been a farm farmed by the Woodburns for some time. I would have thought when Marion married if she was related to George & Agnes that the OPR would have read Marion Woodburn from Ralston Hill but I could be wrong :-\
The Woodburns are still farming Ralston Hill on 1851 Census.
So what are your feelings now Polly? :-\
Looby :)
PS. Regarding your search for Mary Brown/Woodburn remarrying .....she would not have remarried using the name Woodburn . In Scotland she would have remarried under her maiden name/own name. Women were not obliged to take their husbands names in Scotland. You will sometimes see married women on Census returns with their maiden name and their hubby with his. Also many women reverted on widowhood to using their original maiden name.
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A couple of thoughts:
Was there more than one Mary Brown? Both names are quite common. Logically, the Mary Brown who had George Woodburn in 1803 seems unlikely to be the Mary Brown who was the mother of Marion. And not highly probable that she was the mother of John 1824 and George 1826. Although, child-bearing over an extended period was fairly common - my grandfather was older than two of his uncles, for example.
How detailed were the marriage certificates in N.Z.? Is there a certificate for the marriage of Andrew McEwin and Marion Woodburn? Did it give their parents' names?, as did post-1855 Scottish certificates.
Ian
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Hi Looby and Ian
I’m so impressed with how you are both trying to help me with my search. Thank you so much. I’m such a slow coach at answering I’m afraid. It takes me a while to assimilate things. :(
Pleased that you also have Woodburn connections, Ian. You have a big task trying to go through all those records. It is hard to follow a line and so easy to pick up on the wrong one, especially when there are a lot with the same family name in an area.
I see your comment about the christenings of two other children of a Mary Brown. Like Looby I managed to find the marriage record of the parents and it showed that on 27 March 1824 George Woodburn married Mary Brown in the parish of Stonehouse, County of Lanark. I didn’t realise there was an earlier birth to a George Woodburn and Mary Brown – I only searched in the 1820s.
Lucky you Looby! You can walk down the road my ancestors probably knew so well.8) Must be great living in a place with so much history.
I’m still not feeling comfortable with the John and Lily/Lilias Woodburn connection. I can’t quite see the path to it yet.??? - but it may come clear later on. However I’m interested in your comment about the possibility of Mary Brown marrying under her maiden name. Never thought of that. I may be pressed to make another search. I know when Marion married her second husband she used her first husband’s surname so I just assumed that women always did this when they married for the second time.
Ian, Marion married her second husband Andrew McEwin in Victoria, Australia. Unfortunately not much helpful information was on the marriage image. Basically they both declared that they were members of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland and the minister declared that they were joined in wedlock on the 24th June 1850 at Geelong in the presence of witnesses. There was nothing at all about their family background. It was just a marriage register entry. It didn’t become legal to register marriages in Victoria until three years later.
Keep up the good work both of you.
Polly :)
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Good morning on a very blustery Ayrshire day,
Firstly, yes Ian you are right there would have been lots of Mary Browns in Ayrshire and indeed Lanarkshire and the rest of Scotland during this period. Like you I would doubt the Stonehouse Mary (and it does look like 2 different Mary's) and the Kilmaurs Mary are one in the same. In fact the first George birth in 1803 could be the father of the George and John 20 odd years later. I don't get the feeling :P that these people are connected to Marion in Ayrshire.
Polly, I can understand your reluctance to tie Marion in with John and Lilias Woodburn. There is no definite link to them yet (live in hope something's going to pop up and connect Marion with somebody!!) .
Unfortunately pre Statutory Reg. in 1855 all BMD's are recorded in Parish records and the info on them as you have discovered Polly is very sparse which makes life difficult with a common name especially.
The only definite piece of info you have on Marion in Scotland (other than her entry on a shipping list en route to Australia) is her marriage to Thomas McCulloch at Kilmarnock in 1845.
Sorry to keep harping on about it ;D but Marion is recorded as being from near Bonnyhill. The only reference to Bonnyhill I can find in the Kilmarnock locality is Bonnihill. This name, I don't think ,has survived to this day for this place as I can find no modern reference to it. But it is in a rural location outside the town of Kilmarnock and would not be heavily populated. And on the 1841 Census there are 2 Woodburn families living near Bonnihill -
John and Lilias
George and Agnes
On 1851 Census
John and Lilias have moved to another cottage in Kilmarnock area
George and Agnes are still at Ralston Hill Farm which does still exist.
I strongly suspect Marion is connected to either or both of these 2 families.
Speak soon
Looby :)
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Hello again Looby
I have seen on the news about the snow and storms in the UK at the moment.:o Would make life exciting I guess, so long as you can keep warm.
I too have been thinking about the Bonnyhill connection, and had another look at the John and Lilias Woodburn 1841 record. I noticed that their property “Cottage Inn” was two doors one side of the property “Bonnihill” occupated by the Paton family. However I also noticed that there was another Woodburn family two doors the other side of “Bonnihill.” This was the family of George and Agnes Woodburn and their address was “Ralstonhill.” I then studied the 1851 census and found the property (now spelled) “Bonnyhill”. The Patons were no longer there and “Bonnyhill” had been broken up into two properties – one was occupied by the family of William McHoul (farmer 6 Acres) and the other was occupied by the family of John Muir (land proprietor). In this 1851 census George and Agnes Woodburn were still two doors from “Bonnyhill” but I couldn’t find John & Lilly Woodburn.
I am guessing that the two Woodburn families who were there in 1841 were somehow related to Marion. As you know, the 1841 census shows she was working at Grange Street, Kilmarnock where she was working as a servant. At the time of her marriage to Thomas McCulloch in 1845 the marriage register shows her to be living at Bonnyhill, so she may have been living with one of these Woodburn families at the time of her marriage. I imagine that she had to give up her servant job when she became pregnant with Mary, so that may have been when she went to live with her relations. This is all guesswork on my part, of course, and would be almost impossible to verify.:-\
I also wonder about her parents and suspect they weren't around by this time. It seems she was an only child, so I don't think she would have gone to Australia and left them with no children if they were still alive. :'(
I have tried to find more information about Bonnyhill on the internet but can’t find much at all. I did see that article you directed us to which begins “From Bonnyhill, where the view is exceptionally fine…” It looks like a good read if you had the time. I did copy it onto my computer so may try breaking that long paragraph up into lots of smaller paragraphs to make it easier to read.
Polly :)
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I will be away from home for the next week but I haven't lost interest. I'll catch up when I get back.
Ian
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Sorry Looby
I have re-read your last post and now realise that you have seen the 1851 census and are aware of the Woodburns at Ralston Hill farm. I missed that information the first time I read your post.:-[
I see you found that John and Lillias Woodburn had moved to another cottage in Kilmarnock by 1851. That's interesting.
If only we had something to connect them all. That would be good.
Polly :)
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Happy holiday Ian. 8)
Polly
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Good morning on a calmer morning ( so far :-X ;D)
No worries Polly, no need to apologise, there has been a lot of information to read through and assimilate in the last few pages. I'm going to split my new info over 2 to 3 posts so it's not a huge block.
Firstly, I must apologise as I have had to re-assess exactly where Bonnihill is/was and it's a wee bit closer to Kilmarnock than I first thought. I hope this link works -
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/sheet/first_edition/1856-95sheet22
Zoom in and find Kilmarnock area (circa 1856) - you can enlarge it and will see to the right/east of the town Ralstonhill Farm (home to George & Agnes) and Lawhill - Bonnihill and Cottage Inn (home to John & Lilias) must be in that vicinity
Slightly to the west and nearer the town are South (Sth) Dean Farm and New Farm - I believe this is roughly the area where John and Lilias are living in 1851.
Another fantastic Kilmarnock map http://www.dangly.com/kilmarnock/maps/kilmarno.htm
This dates from 1819 drawn by John Woods and has the names of householders included.
The top left segment has Grange Street and Morton Place on it. No Woodburns marked that I can see - but Thomas Morton engineer is included in Morton Place. You can see how close Marion and Thomas McCulloch could have been when she was working in Grange Street.
I'll close this post and move on.
Looby :)
Enjoy you break Ian. Look forward to your input/comments on your return ;D
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I have no connection to Marion but I am enjoying the mystery and the excellent research 8)
being undertaken to 'place' Marion in the correct family and place.
I await the next development with eager anticipation ;D ;D
Joy
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Hi again Polly,
It's not going to be easy to 100% link Marion to either John Woodburn, Cottage Inn 1841 or George Woodburn ,Ralstonhill 1841. I can't , so far, even connect John and George to each other :-\ .
George is a Farmer, John an Agricultural Labourer. John could be working for George ?
Of course, you are correct, if Marion gave birth to Mary circa 1843 she would not have done so in the employ of the Woodburn ladies in Grange Street. If she was from near Bonnihill in 1845 when she marries it would make sense that she was living with one of the Woodburn families and they were related. Then again she could be living/working with one of the other families in the vicinity of Bonnihill.
I would have thought if she was at Ralston Hill farm when she married the OPR would have read Marion Woodburn from Ralstonhill , purely because it was a well established farm.
You suggest that Marion's parents are most likely dead when she emigrates as she would not have left them if she were the only child :-\.
Yes, her parents both could well be dead. But then again....if they were alive , either father or mother, I don't think that would have prevented Marion and hubby heading off to Australia. Mid/late 1840s were a hard time - potato famine - which affected Scotland as well as Ireland.
I strongly suspect,with Marion naming a son John Woodburn McEwin, that her father was a John Woodburn. And with first child born in Scotland, Mary - i would reckon her mother is a Mary.
One other romanticized putting 2 + 2 together and making 17 ;D.
John and Lilias Woodburn ( who I still consider strong contenders for Marion's father and step-mother) have a son Thomas born circa 1843/4. Could he be named in honour of Marion's intended??
Moving on to another contender.
Looby
PS - Just noticed your post Joy ;D . Welcome and feel free to chip in. I'm enjoying this mystery too. It's been just the tonic to keep me busy during the wild and very wet weather and ward off the cabin fever ;D
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A parting thought, only to keep all options open: perhaps "Mary Anne" was her correct/birth name and she adopted the use of "Marion".
Ian
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To be honest Polly, for all that there are not that many Woodburns in Ayrshire....an awful lot of them are lurking around Kilmarnock, muddying up the waters and hard to connect to each other.
But here is another maybe !!!
1841 Kilmarnock - Clerks Lane
John Woodburn age 50 Shoemaker
Mary Woodburn age 50
Robert Woodburn age 15 Woolen Hand Loom Weavers Apprentice
Mary Woodburn age 15
James Woodburn age 13
Janet Woodburn age 10
John Stevenson age 30 Bootmaker
all are born Ayrshire apart from John Stevenson.
This couple are John Woodburn and Mary Aird https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTNQ-XXT
married 8 Sep 1810 Kilmarnock.
Three births to the couple on Familysearch -
John 1811, William 1815, James 1828. No others listed :(
This is son William on 1841-
Bentwick Street Kilmarnock * think that should be Bentinick Street
William Woodburn age 25 Cotton Hand Loom Weaver
Margret Woodburn age 20
John Woodburn age 4
Alexander Woodburn age 2
These families can also be found on 1851 Census.
Now I know this John Woodburn is not a weaver but his family are. His wife is a Mary. I can't find oldest son John on Census - could be dead. There are obviously births to this couple with no Parish birth/christening record. Could Marion's be one of them?
Clerks Lane which was situated at College Wynd and was not that far from Grange Street. But Clerk's Lane where John and Mary live in 1851 too is nowhere near Bonnihill ???
More to investigate I'm afraid
Bye for now,
Looby :)
PS. Just noticed your comment Ian - and thanks - sometimes we can't see the Wood(burns) for the trees - of course you are right she could have been a MaryAnn (in fact that was the spelling on the shipping manifesto , if I remember correctly ). Another avenue to explore ;D
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Hi Looby
I have been out all day today and have just started to read your latest posting. I looked at the map of the Kilmarnock area – what a wonderful map.:o So clever of you to find it. I am not going to study it now or read any more of your posting as I couldn’t give it my whole attention. I am rather tired after a busy day and it's now 10pm. Tomorrow my mind will be fresher.
Thank you so much for this help.:-* I’ll get back.
Polly
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Hi Looby
I have now had time to mull over your latest postings. I really enjoyed looking at the map of the area around Kilmarnock. I noticed the River Irvine and wondered if this was where Marion and Andrew McEwin got the second Christian name of their son George. I have only seen George’s middle name spelt “Irving” however George himself did have a son (also called George) who had two middle names “Irvine Woodburn.” So maybe Irvine is one of those names that can vary a bit in the spelling.???
You made a good point about the possibility that John Woodburn could have been working for George Woodburn. Ralstonhill was important enough to be on the map, unlike Cottage Inn where John and Lilly Woodburn lived.
I did a bit of a search in ScotlandsPeople for the marriage of John and Lilly/Lillias. Do you think their marriage could be the following record?
05/12/1824 – John Woodburn – Lilies McSkimming – Symington (Ayr) /Ayr
I looked for children for them and only two came up (from FamilySearch):
Margaret Woodburn – Christening place: Kilmarnock, Ayr – Birthdate: 09 Jan 1826 – Birthplace: Kilmarnock, Ayr – Father: John Woodburn – Mother: Lillias Mcskimming
Jean Woodburn – Christening date: 28 Aug 1831 – Christening place: Kilmarnock, Ayr – Birth date: 12 August 1831 – Father: John Woodburn – Mother: Lillias Mcskimming
I was hoping to find a listing for these daughters in John & Lilly's 1841 census record, but no such luck. These daughters weren’t listed in their record.
At first I had been interested in the child Jean Woodburn. Jean is a variant of “Jessie” and this may have linked to the Jessie Woodburn who lived at Grange Street with Marion in 1841. I thought that maybe John and Lilly may have been related to Jessie Woodburn at Grange Street and they had named their child after her. But after not finding a Jean or Jessie amongst their children I went off the idea. :(
About Marion naming a son John after her father – well unfortunately this isn’t quite so clear when you consider that Andrew McEwin’s father (and brother) were also called John. The “Woodburn” part is definitely understandable since Woodburn was Marion’s maiden name.
I have seen that 1841 record for John Woodburn, shoemaker with wife Mary. At first I wondered if they could be Marion’s parents. I searched for other census records for them and their children. There is an 1841 record that could be their son John:
1841 census – Kirktonholm, Kilmarnock, Ayrshire – John Woodburn, 25, shoemaker journeyman; Margaret Woodburn, 25; John Woodburn, 5; Cathrine Woodburn, 4; and Robert Woodburn, 6m. All born Ayrshire.
However all this doesn’t solve the riddle of what happened to John Woodburn and Mary Brown.:-\ After a fruitless search to find the answer to this I now think that they died before the 1841 census and their deaths were never recorded. I have read that the old parish death and burial records were the most sparsely records kept, and many parishes did not bother to record these events because there was no requirement to do so.
Maybe we’ll never find proof of Marion’s birth and parents, but I have enjoyed the search. 8)
Polly
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Hello Looby
I am wondering if you think this could be the grave of the Jessie and Willie Woodburn in Marion’s 1841 census record:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=woodburn&GSiman=1&GScid=1974430&GRid=128419482&
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=woodburn&GSiman=1&GScid=1974430&GRid=128419562&
I note the website shows that Jean Woodburn was married to David Woodburn who was quite a bit older than her. Maybe David Caldwell was living elsewhere at the time of the 1841 census. I note there was a David Caldwell living in Perth in 1841 (address 51 George Inn) – his occupation was EICS – there are a couple of others at this address who also have EICS for their occupation (whatever EICS means - do you know ??? )
I am thinking that David Woodburn could be the son of David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell (who I mentioned one other time), and Janet Caldwell could be the Jess Woodburn (aged 60) living at Mosdale, Dalmellington, Ayshire at the time of the 1841 census.
Children of David Woodburn & Janet Caldwell were:
22 Oct 1798 - Ann Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr
12 Apr 1801 – Agnes Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr
20 Apr 1802 – John Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr
11 Mar 1805 – David Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr
Willie Caldwell Woodburn (on the grave inscription) looks like she was born a Woodburn. Maybe she was David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell’s daughter and her birth was not recorded in the parish registers? I see there is a Willie C Woodburn in the 1851 census (sorry if I have mentioned all this before :-[ ).
I can’t guess what the relationship is to Archibald Woodburn. FamilySearch has the following birth/christening record for him:
Name: Archibald Woodburn
Christening Date: 11 Aug 1801
Christening Place: Galston, Ayr, Scotland
Birth Date: 03 Aug 1801
Father's Name: John Woodburn
Mother's Name: Janet Sellars
It’s all a bit of a muddle I know :-\
Polly
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Hi Polly,
These pesky Woodburns are giving you the runaround .
The first grave looks to be the grave of the father and mother of the 2 children on the 1851 Census who were born in India. David Woodburn born 1805 was the brother of the Willie Woodburn and perhaps Jessie Woodburn the women at Grange Street in 1841 . I have also wondered if Jessie was perhaps his wife?? Margaret Grier who is on the Census too at Grange Street is a Woodburn sister.
Second grave is Willie C Woodburn daughter of David Woodburn and Janet/Jessie Caldwell.
Jess Woodburn on the 1841 is Janet Caldwell living with her daughter Agnes and her husband John McMillan.
I'm intrigued with Archibald Woodburn being on the headstone. There is obviously a family connection .
Still working on this for you Polly, just not had a lot of time today.
I hate brick walls ;D
I'm unsure of the significance of Marion working for these 2 Woodburn women. I think it's possible their is a link...... but how far back?? Jessie, Willie and their siblings appear to be a bit further up the ladder than Marion.
Mudding the water more is this lady Mary Ann Woodburn - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTK5-M9B
She is born 21st Jan 1821 at West Kilbride to Robert Woodburn and Jean Gibson. I can find little trace of Woodburns in West Kilbride at this time. I do wonder if this couple and John Woodburn& Mary Brown were connected.
This is certainly a puzzle,
Looby :)
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Hi again Looby
I too have wondered if Jessie at Grange Street in 1841 was David Woodburn’s wife. The gravestone shows Jean Woodburn, David's wife, was born in 1819. FamilySearch shows his wife’s name to be Jane Walker. I think Jane, Janet, Jean and Jessie are variants of the same name.
I have been doing some more searching on David Woodburn & Janet Caldwell’s family since I last wrote. It seems a number of their family were military types. The son John (born 20 Apr 1802) was killed in 1841 when fighting insurgents in Afghanistan. There’s a nice church plaque for him at this website:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1954655
Another website added this information about him:
“John Woodburn was the son of David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell. He was born 20 Apr 1803 near Dalmellington, Ayrshire, Scotland. His father was Factor of the Craigengillan Estate. John enlisted as a Cadet in the Bengal Army in 1820.”
Regarding Archibald Woodburn, the nationalarchives.gov.uk website have “Letters to David Woodburn, mainly about family matters, from his uncle Archibald Woodburn (1801- ), Madras Army 1818-45” which I don’t think is possible to access online. I gather from this that David Woodburn (born 1805) was the nephew of Archibald Woodburn in spite of the fact that Archibald (the uncle) was only a couple of years older.
Interesting to see there was another Woodburn baby born in West Kilbride around the time Marion was born.:o Robert Woodburn could be a brother of John, do you think? It may be an interesting lead to follow…
I appreciate the time you are putting into this Looby.
Polly :)
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Hi Polly & Looby
To further muddy the waters there was an unnamed female born in 1820 to a John Woodburn ??? no mother named.
I am convinced that the Woodburn families are all connected BUT there is difference in status so it
must be well back :-\
Robert Woodburn and Jean Gibson had the following children that I can see:
Alexander b 1819
Mary Ann b 1821
William b 1822 mother is named as Jane which could still be Jean
James b 1824
George b 1826
Jean b 1828
John b 1831
David b 1833
Thomas b 1835
John b 1838 first one must have died
You've probably seen all this but thought I would post anyway, I'm really intrigued by this
mystery.
Joy
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Hi Polly, Ian, Joy et all ;D
Polly another mention for Captain John Woodburn killed in Afghanistan in 1841 at Dalmellington Parish Church
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-post-38683.html
Interesting family - definitely further up the social scale than your Marion (no offence :P )
Archibald Woodburn uncle of above is born in Galston which is interesting. Galston is about 5 miles from Kilmarnock and is close to the stamping ground of Ian's Woodburns.
We are chipping the brick Polly, a little at a time .
Looby :)
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Hello Looby and Joy
Thanks for that info, Joy, about the children of Robert Woodburn and Jean Gibson. I didn’t realise they had so many.:o I only managed to find three in FamilySearch.
I have done some searching today on this Robert and Jean Woodburn family. I had hoped to find that they had other children in West Kilbride but I found the others were born elsewhere.
I then decided to do a search to see if there were other Woodburns who married in Kilmaurs Parish which, as you know, was where John Woodburn and Mary Brown were married, and I found two marriages – one, of course, was for John and Mary, and the other was for - guess who? - yes, Robert Woodburn and "Jane" Gibson.8) Both couples were married in 1818.
Thinking the men could have been brothers I found in FamilySearch a suitable-looking birth record for Robert Woodburn. It didn’t say he was born/baptised in Kilmaurs, but in Loudoun. So I searched in ScotlandsPeople for children born to his parents and found birth records for him and his siblings but unfortunately there wasn’t a John amongst them.:'(
So, disappointed, I decided to search for all Woodburns born in Loudoun between the years 1786 and 1801 (with the marriage date of 1818 in mind) and three new records came up (yes, only three. There can't have been many Woodburn families living in the Loudoun area at that time :-\). The good thing is - one of these records was for a John Woodburn.:D
Name: John Woodburn
Birth date: 7 Aug 1796
Parent names: James Woodburn/Margaret Brown
Parish: Loudoun
City/County: Ayr
The two other records belonged to his siblings:
Name: Andrew Woodburn
Birth date: 20 Jan 1788
Parent names: James Woodburn/Margaret Brown
Parish: Loudoun
City/County: Ayr
Name: Janet Woodburn
Birth date: 26 Feb 1792
Parent names: James Woodburn/Margaret Brown
Parish: Loudoun
City/County: Ayr
John may have had further siblings born outside my date search range. I may go back and check that. But I am fairly confident that this is the birth record for John Woodburn who married Mary Brown, although I’m treating it with caution. Anyway, it was thanks to your hint about Robert and Jean Woodburn, Looby, that helped me find the record. So, thanks for that. :-*
Maybe it is possible to find a little more yet about this birth family of John Woodburn’s. But that will have to wait for another day. Meanwhile it’s time for bed.
Polly
PS: It definitely crossed my mind, Looby, about my side of the Woodburn clan being of a much humbler mould than the captains and majors of David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell’s family.;) Makes you wonder how Marion came to be living with them in 1841, although I see she was a mere servant in the household. If only we knew the real story.
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Hi folks.
Unfortunately there are a few Woodburn families living and having babies ( most of them John ::) ) in Loudoun at this time. Perhaps Ian will be able to give us some pointers as he has researched some of them!
Well done Polly and Joy with following up Robert Woodburn and Jane/Jean Gibson - I would agree it would seem very possible that the two Woodburn men marrying in Kilmaurs are related.
Robert and Jean Woodburn appear to be living in Soulis Street Kilmarnock on 1841 Census.
as transcribed -
Woodburn Robt M 40 Agricultural Labourer born Ayrshire
Woodburn Jean F 40 "
Woodburn James M 15 Agricultural Labourer "
Woodburn John M 3 "
I think this is the couple on 1851 Census (they have aged more than 10 years but bear in mind please that 1841 Census ages can be unreliable )
Campbell Street, Riccarton Kilmarnock 1851
Woodburn Robert Head 57 Ag Labourer born Ayrshire, Kilmarnock
Woodburn Jean Wife 58 born Ayrshire, Saltcoats
Woodburn John Son 12 Scholar born Ayrshire, Kilmarnock
There is a Jane Gibson born in Stevenson Ayrshire on 27 Sep 1892 (Saltcoats would fall under Stevenson Parish) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYCM-2VT this could fit with above Jean Woodburn.
Lets hope Robert conveniently died after 1855 - his parents names should be included on Death cert and might lead you to John Woodburn who marries Mary Brown.
It would certainly seem that the 2 men and 2 women could all be farm labourers who met in Kilmaurs area.....married then moved on to West Kilbride for work.....and ultimately one if not both ended up in Kilmarnock......but throwing a spanner in the works there are births elsewhere to robert and Jane/Jean.
Alexander Woodburn birth 26 March 1819 christened 6 Apr 1819 Dreghorn, Ayrshire.
Mary Ann Woodburn birth 3 Jan 1821 christened 21 Jan 1821 West Kilbride, Ayrshire
William Woodburn birth 9 Nov 1822 christened 8 Dec 1822 Kilmaurs
James Woodburn birth 16 June 1824 christened 27 June 1824 Craigie by Kilmarnock
George Woodburn birth 9 Nov 1826 christened 24 Dec 1826 Craigie by Kilmarnock
Jean Woodburn birth 14 Dec 1828 christened 28 Dec 1828 Craigie by Kilmarnock
John Woodburn birth 22 Feb 1831 christened 27 Mar 1831 " "
David Woodburn birth 28 Mar 1833 christened 7 Apr 1833 " "
Thomas Woodburn birth 12 May 1835 christened 24 May 1835 " "
John Woodburn birth 26 Aug 1838 Kilmarnock
A lot of births! There could have been more in between who died at birth and I don't think all these children survived for long. :(
The family have spent some time at Craigie (small hamlet/ lots of farms) - which is where John Woodburn married to Lilias McSkimming gives as his place of birth on 1851 Census.
Looking at the above children of Robert and Jean - if and it's a big IF the Jane Gibson born in Stevenson is this Jean Woodburn :
1st daughter - Mary Ann - Jane Gibson's mother is a Mary
2nd son - William - Jane Gibson' father is William
Could we be looking for an Alexander Woodburn and a Jane/ Jean as parents of Robert?? Or would that just be too good to be true!
Looby :)
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Now - part 2 ;D
I strongly suspect - although I could be totally wrong :-[ - that Robert Woodburn and John Woodburn living at Cottage Inn near Bonnilhill on the 1841 Census are brothers.
This could well be John's birth at Craigie on 28 Aug 1796 son of an Alexander Woodburn , annoyingly no mother's name ! https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY4Z-HZ6 - this would match with John age 54 born Craigie on the 1851 Census.
I've found three births which also interest -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYZB-1HZ James Woodburn to Alexander Woodburn & Jean Porter christened April 1790 at Galston.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYSY-PP2 - William Woodborn to Alexander Woodburn & Jean Porter birth 24 Sep 1798 christening 30 Sep 1798 at Symington , Ayrshire (not far from Craigie & Kilmarnock)
And lastly - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYZB-1HN a birth of a James Woodburn 4 Dec 1799 , christened 9 Dec 1799 to John Woodburn and Jean Sillars at Galston.
This must be a brother to Archibald Woodburn , the soldier on the grave belonging to those other Woodburns ;D .
Need to have my dinner now. Just as well I'm housebound this last couple of days due to our freezing conditions. Snow still lying and it's no pleasure to drive. Plenty research time.
Looby ;D
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I think that Robert and John Woodburn are brothers too, but even if they are
it doesn't advance us much further really :-\
Off now to reread through the thread as I think I've lost sight of the original query :-[
Joy
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Hi Joyful,
We are going off on tangents here aren't we.
Just a refresher - we are trying to find the parentage of Marion Woodburn.
She marries Thomas McCulloch in Kilmarnock in 1845 , the OPR reads that she is from near Bonnihill.
John Woodburn married to Lilias McSkimming is living in 1841 near Bonnihill.
I have suspected this is Marion's father although Polly is not so sure.
Marion is working for 2 Woodburn ladies in Grange Street in 1841 - she could be distantly related to them, we don't know.
Finding Robert Woodburn marrying same year as John at Kilmaurs and having a daughter Mary Ann in West Kilbride makes me think they could be related .
I am wondering if they are sons of Alexander Woodburn and Jean Porter. It would be great if something we find links Marion to these people but I'm not hopeful.
Looby :)
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Hello again Polly -
Well my curiosity got the better of me and I decided to find the death of John Woodburn married to Lilias McSkimming and living at Cottage Inn near Bonnihill in 1841.
I had hoped that he would be recorded as both husband of Mary Brown and Lily/Lilias McSkimming.....but he's not :'(
John Woodburn died in Murkirk , Ayrshire ( where the family appear to have moved during 1850s) on 23 April 1875. He was 78 years old, married to Lilias McSkimming, address Railway Terrace, Murkirk occupation Hammerman died of General Debility . And his parents were Alexander Woodburn and Jane Porter (both deceased) , the informant was his son John Woodburn.
A Hammerman was a smith/metal worker according to http://www.scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm
It's disappointing that Mary Brown does not get a mention on this cert , so either :
1. John was not the John who married Mary Brown at Kilmaurs and was only married to Lilias.
or
2. After a gap of 50 years, John Woodburn jnr didn't know/ forgot/ didn't think it worth mentioning that his father had been married before. Maybe he'd forgotten/never knew the name.
I have found a brother of John's ....Alexander.
He died in 1906 in Monkton & Prestwick aged 94 years - Cause senile decay- parents Alexander Woodburn & Jean Porter. He is married to Elspeth Hyslop (this is incorrect unless he has a second wife - his wife is Elizabeth Ramsay) and the informant is his daughter Jane Walker. Elspeth is a variant of Elizabeth. Don't know where the Hyslop comes from :-\ .
Alexander and his wife and family are living in Kilmaurs Parish at Crosshouse at the time of 1841 Census.
Still no definite link to Marion :-X.
Looby :)
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I am visiting my brother and using his computer, so I don't have access to any of my written files.
I do think that you have established some link with "Willie" in that the daughter of David, son of "Jessie" was given Willie as a second name. This David I think was also the father of "visitor" John.
But, Polly, I think it may be time for you to try recap some of this information - perhaps making groups of: still possible leads ; and known facts (few, unfortunately), and discarding false leads.
I still wonder whether there might be any old Australian or N.Z. sources that you could tap into? Resources created after mandatory civil registration I mean. Marion lived to a fair age and there may have been events or applications that required, for example, her exact place of birth, or a parent's name.
During the time of your search, Woodburns were numerous in the area, although I do not think it was a common name in Scotland. Consequently, there was frequently a duplication of names because of the Scottish naming pattern. For example, naming the first son after his grandfather resulted in same-name cousins. Our family had several Johns, Williams, and Alexanders of similar age, making it difficult to sort them out. But I think you might only need one established fact to get you on track.
Keep at it!
Ian
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Hi Polly,
I think Ian is right.
You need to look at what info you have and check out any other avenue in Aus and NZ.
You know Marion married Thomas McCulloch 16th Dec 1845 at Kilmarnock. He was from Morton Place , Marion was from near Bonnihill.
You know they sailed on the Mahomed Shah in 1848 to Australia. Thomas aged 28 a labourer,
Mary Anne age 27, Mary aged 5 - native place Kilmarnock Ayrshire. (year of birth for Marion 1820/1821
You know that she remarried and had children Mary and Thomas McCulloch / James , Andrew, John Woodburn. Margaret Esther, George Irving and Martha McEwin.
She died Nov 1908 and her age was 92years (year of birth 1815/1816) and her father was a weaver.
Her headstone has her age as 90. (year of birth 1817/1818)
Actually looking back on the posts and typing this out reminded me that on the ship's list Marion is recorded as Mary Anne. Ian had also prompted us to consider that spelling . And we had found Robert Woodburn and Jean Gibson's daughter Mary Ann also born at West Kilbride - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTK5-M9B - think we need to consider this lady too!
Not gave up yet Polly :P just having a rethink ........
Looby :)
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A few quick question Polly,
When did Thomas McCulloch die? Was baby son Thomas born before or after his death?
When did Marion remarry? No details regarding her age/parentage on that cert?
Thanks,
Looby :)
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Hi Polly, Looby & Ian
I think that if the Aus and Nz searches don't turn up any new information, then on a
balance of probabilities John Woodburn and Mary Brown are Marion's parents ;)
Consider...Your ancestor consistently gives her name as Marion
... The only Marion ( I can find ) is born to John Woodburn and Mary Brown
... Ancestor marries as 'Marion'
I know that the passenger list says Mary Ann but that is easily explained as the clerk
wrote what he heard and could very well have had difficulty with a Scottish accent.
It may be that Robert Woodburn and John are brothers but even if they are it doesn't
advance your quest any further. I'm equally sure that there is a relationship between the
various 'Woodburns' but that too, would appear to be an interesting sidestep only.
Having said all that some other miraculous piece of information may yet appear :-\ Just moi opinion.
Onward...
Joy
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Hi All
Sorry, I have been away from the house a lot of the time in the last two days and have only just got back to my computer, so I’m surprised to find you have been writing and doing such good research.:o
It is late now here – after midnight – so I think I had better get some sleep before re-reading what you wrote. But I will quickly make a few observations now and then write back again tomorrow.
Regarding your last posting Joy, I agree with what you said about Marion’s name on the passenger list. I have thought exactly the same thing. The person writing the name down may not have been too familiar with the Scottish accent – Marion sounds a bit like MaryAnn when pronounced. Apparently there were often discrepancies in the recording of passenger details.
Looby, Thomas McCulloch died in Melbourne in August 1848. He was 29. I have searched but can’t find a birth record for son Thomas. He wasn’t on the passenger list and it was only six weeks after the family arrived in Australia that Thomas (senior) was drowned, so I presume that Thomas junior was born after his father’s death. Thomas (junior) died in August 1912 and his death registration shows him to be 62 years old. My guess is that he was born in 1849.
Marion’s second marriage to Andrew McEwin was on 25 June 1850 in Geelong, Victoria. The image I have is from a marriage register and has no family background information – it just shows that they were joined in wedlock and were members of the Presbyterian Church.
Now finally before I go to bed (it is now after 1.00am) I wanted to say that a couple of days ago I looked for a birth possibility for Robert Woodburn. I found two records in FamilySearch – one birth/baptism was in 1804 and the other in 1796 (both in Loudoun parish). I cancelled out the 1804 birth because this Robert would only have been 14 in 1818 when the marriage took place :o so I aimed for the 1796 birth as being the one I was looking for. It showed:
Name: Robert Woodburn
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 04 Dec 1796
Christening Place: Loudoun, Ayr, Scotland
Birth Date: 28 Nov 1796
Father's Name: Alexander Woodburn
Mother's Name: Mary Croser
I then looked in ScotlandsPeople for the children of Alexander Woodburn & Mary Crozier/Croser:
31/10/1784 Woodburn James Alexander Woodburn/Mary Crozier Loudoun/Ayr
13/08/1786 Woodburn William Alexander Woodburn/Mary Crozier Loudoun/Ayr
29/03/1789 Woodburn Robert Alexander Woodburn/Mary Crozier Loudoun/Ayr
15/05/1791 Woodburn Janet Alexander Woodburn/Mary Crozier Loudoun/Ayr
04/12/1796 Woodburn Robert Alexander Woodburn/Mary Croser Loudoun/Ayr
17/02/1799 Woodburn Helen Alexander Woodburn/Mary Croizer Loudoun/Ayr
I’m not sure, but you may already have seen this information. But thought I would throw it in.;D
I’ll write back again tomorrow after I have absorbed your information.
Thanks again for all your efforts.
Polly :)
PS: Did I mention before that I found a birth possibility for John Woodburn who married Mary Brown in 1818 ??? Anyway, I'll put it here again, plus his siblings:
28/09/1783 Woodburn John James Woodburn/Margaret Brown Loudoun /Ayr
18/12/1785 Woodburn James James Woodburn/Margaret Brown Loudoun /Ayr
20/01/1788 Woodburn Andrew James Woodburn/Margaret Brown Loudoun /Ayr
26/02/1792 Woodburn Janet James Woodburn/Margaret Brown Loudoun /Ayr
07/08/1796 Woodburn John James Woodburn/Margaret Brown Loudoun /Ayr
Also a birth possibility for the father James Woodburn:
23/03/1760 Woodburn James John Woodburn/Janet Borland Loudoun /Ayr
That Borland name has reappeared again :o
This time I really have to go.
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Marion’s second marriage to Andrew McEwin was on 25 June 1850 in Geelong, Victoria. The image I have is from a marriage register and has no family background information – it just shows that they were joined in wedlock and were members of the Presbyterian Church.
Are you saying the only information you have is from an index? :-\
Are you able to order the actual historical certificate? Wouldn't this contain more information?
or ...
If they married in a Presbyterian Church does the church hold any historical records of marriage/certificates? :-\
[I don't have much knowledge of Vic records so apologies if I have this wrong.]
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Just a quick reply - cos I'm a busy lady today ;D
I understand Polly and Joy what you both mean about Marion being down as Mary Anne on ship list.
Yes , it would be how the ship's purser (or whatever name the crew member who wrote the list was called) picked up the pronunciation and spelled it.
But the same applies to the West Kilbride Parish register for Mary Ann daughter of Robert & Janet Woodburn - the minister/church official would spell the name as he heard it - perhaps she was a Marion too!
During my digging for Marion, I came across a couple in the Kilmarnock Parish records who marry in 1853 - Janet Woodburn & William Fail.
The following year they have a daughter Maryann McPhail -
on 1861 Census this child is Mary A McPhail by 1871 she is Marion McPhail and she marries in 1879 as Marion. I had wondered if Janet was related to your Marion, Polly and was naming her daughter after her. But as usual with these wonderful Woodburns I can't yet establish a link.
But I think it emphasises yet again the inconsistencies of spelling . Marrion/Marian/Mirron/Merron are other alternatives too ::)
However I'm still inclined to think Marion's father was a John Woodburn - purely because the only child she bestowed with the Woodburn name was John. Scottish family trees are bursting with sons named after their Mother's father- forename and surname as middle name.
How terrible Polly :o for poor Marion losing Thomas 6 weeks after they arrived for their new life in Australia. That must have been horrendous - a young widow with a small daughter and either pregnant or with a newborn in a strange land. I wonder if young Thomas was born after his father's death and thus named in his memory.
Thomas's family I think are in Morton Place on the 1841 Census -his father was a John McCulloch, Carpet Weaver. Thomas must have returned to live with them after 1841 and prior to 1845. I only mention this Polly because I realised when researching that one of my own 4xg grandparents and 3xg grandfather were neighbours and probably workmates ;D
I still think your best clue on the Scottish side of the search is the notation on Marion's marriage lines that she was from near Bonnihill.
Bye for now,
Looby :)
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Don't want to interrupt your thread but my irish gt grandmother Mary Ann changed her name to "Marion" in the 1880s in Scotland and dropped the "e" off Forsythe to take the Scottish spelling.
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Hi Fifer,
;D
From my own FH experience (and from running a few Adult Learning classes for my local council on Family History research) - I have discovered that the spelling of names could vary greatly from document to document. As you say many Irish who arrived in Scotland adapted their names or had their names adapted for them by whoever wrote it down on Census/Bmd etc.
I have McLung's who morphed into McLean's. I've also got the Lilias/Lillias/ Lily among others.
I recall helping a lady at class who was trying to find an ancestor with the forename Matthew on an early Census in Ayrshire. We really struggled to find him and when we did he was transcribed as a boy called Martha - think the original read Matha which is how the name would/and is still sometimes pronounced by older folk in Ayrshire. ;D
Looby
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Hi All
I am about to post this and notice that new posts have come in since I last was here.:o I will read these later. Thanks for so much help and interest. I am impressed. :D
Meanwhile, harping back to what I said in the wee small hours of this morning (Thursday) I also now see that Thomas McCulloch jnr's 1912 death rego shows he was born in Geelong, Victoria. I don't know how much reliance we can put on this death registration detail (the informant was his son Arthur Stuart McCulloch). Thomas's father Thomas senior died 1848 in Melbourne. Geelong, I understand, is 41 miles from Melbourne. Marion married Andrew McEwin in Geelong in June 1850. Maybe Marion met Andrew McEwin straight after her husband's death. A solo mother with a young daughter and another child on the way, no family to support her, and in a strange country - she was probably pretty desperate.:'( There would have been no government support like there is nowadays. Meeting Andrew may have been a blessing, and they may have gone to Geelong by the time Thomas was born. But just what really did happen to Marion in that intervening period between her first husband's death and her remarriage in June 1850 is all a bit of a blur.:-\
I also noticed that Thomas junior’s death rego said his father was a weaver. I now feel that the 1841 census record we found for Thomas McCulloch, aged 20, carpet weaver, living with the Borland family in Eglinton Street, Gorbals may indeed be the correct Thomas.
Interesting point that you made, Ian, about Australian and N.Z. documents on which Marion may have had to record her birth details. I can’t think of any possibilities right now but may have to get my thinking cap on.
But I think the main thing we have to establish is just who the couple John Woodburn and Mary Brown were and just what happened to them after the birth of their daughter Marion Woodburn in October 1819. I do feel that they are the most likely candidates for being Marion’s parents. But it would be great if I could find something that links their daughter Marion to my ancestor.
Do you think there could be a chance that their marriage in 1818 was reported in a local newspaper? Did they report on such things in those days? Looby, have you done any searching in the old Ayrshire papers? Are there any online newspapers from this time? I found online a photo of Kilmaurs Kirk in 1880 and thought it could have been the church where John Woodburn and Mary Brown married. The marriage register image shows: “Kilmaurs 20 June 1818 - This day John Woodburn and Mary Brown both in this Parish gave in their names to be proclaimed in order to marriage – two days.” So they must have both been living in the Kilmaurs Parish at the time.
I suppose you have to pay to view any old newspapers? We are spoilt in this regard in the Antipodes because we don’t have to pay to view the old papers (not at the moment anyway!).
Another crazy thought. Do you think John and Mary could have emigrated at some stage before the 1841 census? Maybe they tried to talk Marion into coming to, say, America with them and she refused.
Polly :)
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Hi again
Was nice to get your latest comments.
Looby, great that you found another McCulloch family living in Morton Place in the 1840s. Good work.:D We now know that Thomas was a weaver so it is not surprising that his father was one as well. How fascinating that your ancestors were neighbours of this McCulloch family. What a coincidence.:o I love to find out about the family background of the people I am researching even if this extra information isn’t very relevant to my main research. It helps build up the big picture. I would be interested in knowing some more about this McCulloch family, e.g. if they were still there in the 1851 census.
Ruskie, thanks for your interest. You ask about the image from the marriage register. This image is from the registers of St Andrews Presbyterian Church, Geelong and I got it after I had viewed the index entry for Andrew and Marion’s marriage in the Victorian Registry of Births Deaths and Marriages website. This website has church baptism, marriage and burial records dating from 1836 until the time registration began in Victoria in 1853. Had Andrew and Marion married after that 1853 date the image, no doubt, would have had more family details. It was unfortunate they married just before official registration began.
Must go now. Have some tasks to do.
Thanks everyone for your efforts.
Polly :)
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Hi Polly
First 1841 Census - Morton Place
MCCULLOCH John M 55 Carpet Weaver Ayrshire
MCCULLOCH Agnes F 50 Ayrshire
MCCULLOCH James M 15 Ayrshire
MCCULLOCH Jean F 10 Ayrshire
CRIGHTON Hugh M 15 Apprentice Tailor Ayrshire
My family the Nisbets are living on the same street .
1851 - family has moved - Agnes has died.
1/2 Stevens Land Bank Street, Kilmarnock
MCCULLOCH John Head W M 66 Carpet Weaver Ayrshire - New Cumnock
MCCULLOCH Jane Dau U F 20 Dress Maker Ayrshire - Kilmarnock
MCFADZEAN Arch Lodger U M 22 Shopman Clothier Argyllshire - Kilminar
BORLAND Matthew Lodger U M 21 Shopman Grocer Ayrshire - Tarbolton
Note another Borland! :D
Looby :)
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Hi again Polly,
You asked me about researching local papers. To be honest I don't have a huge amount of experience with those. The Kilmarnock Standard is the local paper but I'm not sure when it began but I don't think it was being printed circa 1818 . I know there was also the Kilmarnock Herald but again don't think it was as early as that. The Burns Monument Centre in Kilmarnock holds newspaper archives on microfiche and reel (also some fragile original bound copies) but no online resource that I know of.
However I would very much doubt John Woodburn and Mary Brown's marriage would be announced or the birth of Marion. Newspaper announcements would be outwith the budget of the majority of people.
Kilmaurs Parish was actually quite a large area which took in the villages of Kilmaurs, Knockentiber and Crosshouse as well as outlying farms. John and Mary probably didn't marry in church. Funnily enough I've been contributing with others over the past few days to another thread on this matter. Most couples were married at the bride's home or the manse (minister's home) or in the case of Ag Labs at the farm where they worked. John and Mary may not have lived in the town of Kilmaurs itself.
As regards the couple emigrating without Marion ....well anything is possible....finding them would be very hard.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
Thank you for the census records for John & Agnes McCulloch.
I tried searching for birth records of children with father John McCulloch and mother Agnes, hoping I would find a Thomas amongst them. However I found there were quite a few children with these parent names and there were four different maiden surnames for the mother. There were no Thomas’s amongst the children, however there were three children with missing Christian names – these all were born to John McCulloch & Agnes Simond. They were born 27 July 1819, 13 Jun 1822 and 8 Feb 1824. There was also a child John McCulloch with parents John McCulloch and Agnes Limond – he was born 4 Jun 1826. All these children were born in Dalmellington, Ayr. But one thing that discouraged me was that the couple in the census records seemed to be having children at a later time.>:(
I looked at the other birth results. There was a Janet McCulloch born 25 Apr 1830 to a John McCulloch & Agnes Baird, who I thought could have been the Jean, aged 10 in 1841, but then I noticed that this couple also had another daughter named Jean McCulloch on 29 Mar 1835. Apart from that they had a son George on 8 Oct 1826 and a son David on 11 May 1828. All these children were born in Ayr/Ayr.
So I never really found any answers in these birth records. :(
Thanks for filling me in about the early Ayrshire newspapers. Yes, it looks like we won’t have much joy in finding information that way.
I was interesting in what you told me about the sort of places people married in 1818. I had always thought of John and Mary marrying in a church, but I now see I was looking at it from a 21st century viewpoint.
Well, at the moment Looby nothing seems to be coming together.:-\ I have spent quite a lot of time and money trying to find a death record for either John or Mary, to no avail. This couple just seemed to vanish after the birth of their daughter in 1819. So strange.???
Oh well, something may turn up one day.
Bye for now
Polly :)
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Hi Polly,
I haven't really looked at McCulloch births - Thomas could well be missing from OPRs - just remember that it wasn't compulsory to have your child's birth/baptism registered at the church and quite a lot of couples couldn't afford the fee. Sometimes in a large family you may find all, none or some recorded :-\
It's quite dispiriting when you feel you've hit a brick wall. And certainly at the moment we seem to be stuck. Other than researching every Woodburn family in Ayrshire and finding the connections (and I'm sure that a generation or so before Marion there will be links), I can't think of anything else to suggest.
Marion in 1841 is working and noted on the Census with 2 Woodburn ladies - co-incidence possibly, or did family connections get her the job :-\
Marion is married in 1845 and the OPR reads that she is from near Bonnihill . There are 2 Woodburn families living near Bonnihill in 1841. Balance of probabilities are that Marion is connected to one or other or both.
If John and Mary Woodburn (nee Brown) died before 1855 there is a good chance there will be no death record - few death records exist -especially if they were not rich.
Another find which may not relate to your Woodburns but I thought worth mentioning considering the date today - 25 th January.
David Woodburn factor of Craigengillan Estate and father of Willie C Woodburn etc (one of the ladies for whom Marion is working for in Kilmarnock) was a friend it seems of none other the the Ayrshire Bard - Rabbie Burns !!
It seems Robert Burns presented his friend David Woodburn with a poem -
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18500/18500-h/18500-h.htm#XIV
Good luck with your research Polly, something may pop up one day ;D
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
I had forgotten that it was Robbie Burn’s birthday on Sunday. My great-grandfather James McEwin was a member of the Robert Burn’s Lodge in Reefton (NZ). I have a couple of newspaper articles from 1891 and 1892 which show he attended meetings (for the ‘annual installation of officers’) around the time of Burn’s birthday. One of the articles wrote of the banquet afterwards which ended with 'Auld Lang Syne.'
I have looked up the website you sent about Robert Burns giving one of his poems to David Woodburn. How interesting. How proud he must have been. 8)
One thing I have found since I last posted. I emailed a fellow researcher I hadn’t communicated with for a while, and told him of my Woodburn search including Marion’s 1841 census record and the other Woodburns living with her. He emailed back that he had looked in Ancestry and found (in a well-researched family tree) that Jessie Woodburn was one of seven children born to David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell who married in Kilmarnock on 17 Oct 1797. Apart from the four we know of it seems there were three other children born to David & Janet – Jessie, Willie Caldwell and Margaret. So it was good to clear up that Jessie and Willie were sisters. My researcher friend couldn’t establish whether Marion was related to them but thought she was possibly a second or third cousin.
Another thing I have been thinking about. Marion may not have been working for Jessie and Willie in 1841. She may have been living in the household and working elsewhere. Anyway it is just a thought.
I may have come to the end of what I am going to find on Marion’s early life. Thanks to you and the others I now feel I know her a little better, especially her 1840s period. I may get back again if I ever come to research my McEwin (McEwan) roots. Now that’s another story.::)
Bye for now
Polly :)
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Polly,
It will not be of much help to you but it may be of interest that David Woodburn (Sr.) was "gentry", being the factor of Craigengillan Estate. There are several internet sites that mention him, most describing him as "of Camlarg Lodge". Unfortunately, I have not read anything that connects this family to "your" Marion, other than the 1841 census.
Ian
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Hello Ian
Thanks for telling me about David Woodburn being of “Camlarg Lodge.” Because of that information I was able to work out that David Woodburn senior died Mar 8, 1821.:) I found online a death register from “The Scots Magazine, Vol 87” – one of the listings was “At Camlarg Lodge, Ayrshire, David Woodburn, Esq.” Yes, I did notice there were quite a few deaths there for people of a higher social standing. I hadn’t realised that David Woodburn was “gentry.” Being the factor of Craigengillan Estate I thought that maybe he was the manager of the estate and worked for gentry but wasn’t of that class himself. To be honest I am not exactly sure what being the factor of an estate would involve. ???
Something that still mystifies me is how Archibald Woodburn (born 1801) was connected to the David Woodburn/Janet Caldwell family. I see there is an inscription for Archibald on the Woodburn grave...
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=woodburn&GSiman=1&GScid=1974430&GRid=128419562&
...which would imply he was one of the family. But I can’t find a family connection. The inscription says he was born 3 Aug 1801. I found a record for an Archibald Woodburn who was born/baptised on 11 Aug 1801 with father John Woodburn and mother Janet Sellars. I then found a record for a David Woodburn born 1776 to parents John Woodburn & Ann Guthry. Among the other children this couple had was a son John born 1780. I thought this could be John Woodburn, father of Archibald. This would mean Archibald was the nephew of David Woodburn snr and first cousin of David Woodburn jnr (b.1805) and Willie Caldwell Woodburn (b. c1811) who are also mentioned on the gravestone. But it is all just speculation on my part.
Unfortunately all this searching is not getting me closer to finding out where Marion and her parents fit into the big picture. I think it is time to call off the search and celebrate those things I have found out. I am now feeling more confident about Marion's 1841 census record.
Thanks again for your help Ian
Polly :)
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Hi
I havejust found out that I may be descended from the Woodburns of Dalmellington. Not much help to anyone yet but going to see what I can find out and share here. I'm descended from David b 1805.
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Hi Polly,
I know this thread is about 6 months old now, but I am also descended from Andrew McEwin and Marion Woodburn, and have also been struggling to figure out her parentage.....so I read the whole thread with great interest.
I've not discovered any more than you have, but if I come across anything I'll post back here.
I'm also happy to share any family details if you're interested...feel free to PM me :)
Cheers,
Terri
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Hello again,
Polly - you said "Something that still mystifies me is how Archibald Woodburn (born 1801) was connected to the David Woodburn/Janet Caldwell family. I see there is an inscription for Archibald on the Woodburn grave..."
Well, I have just discovered the probate for Willie's will, in which it states that an Archibald Francis Woodburn was her nephew....
http://sharing.ancestry.com/7865457?h=ad1650&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url
Not the Archibald born in 1801, but perhaps there is a link somewhere?
Just a thought.....still looking :)
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Hi Polly, Terri,
Afraid I can't help with the mystery of Marion's birth but I can help with Willie (although not why she was called Willie. Willie is my 4x grt Aunt. She died on 18 Mar 1888 and she was a spinster, living alone. She was the daughter of David Woodburn and Jessie Caldwell.
From what I have found so far I Archibald Woodburn (b1801) is the son of John Woodburn and Janet Sellers. I believe that John was the brother of David.
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Hi Polly,
I've just started researching my McEwin ancestors. I'm looking at a copy of an excerpt from the family bible of Margaret Hester McEwin, b.Apr 26, 1795, Caddington England, married John McEwin at Dumfries 19th Seot 1811. They migrated to Melbourne Australia in 1839 with their youngest six children - They had 10 sons & 1 daughter - including Andrew McEwin, who m'd in Melbourne & settled in N.Z., and my great great grandfather Joseph Nash McEwin.
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Hi Polly,
I've just started researching my McEwin ancestors. I'm looking at a copy of an excerpt from the family bible of Margaret Hester McEwin, b.Apr 26, 1795, Caddington England, married John McEwin at Dumfries 19th Seot 1811. They migrated to Melbourne Australia in 1839 with their youngest six children - They had 10 sons & 1 daughter - including Andrew McEwin, who m'd in Melbourne & settled in N.Z., and my great great grandfather Joseph Nash McEwin.
Welcome to Rootschat, Diana . What a great document ( the excerpt from the family bible) ! I hope Polly picks up your message as she's not been online since May 15. I know she would be thrilled with any information you could give her.
Looby :)
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Hi Diana,
You must be a descendant of Edna Scambler!!! I too have a transcript of the extracts of that bible, and have been searching for the original for years!
I have oodles of info about the McEwins and would be very happy to share. I've been researching them for years. I'm descended from Andrew.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like to connect offline.
Cheers,
Terri
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Hi Polly, Terri,
Afraid I can't help with the mystery of Marion's birth but I can help with Willie (although not why she was called Willie. Willie is my 4x grt Aunt. She died on 18 Mar 1888 and she was a spinster, living alone. She was the daughter of David Woodburn and Jessie Caldwell.
From what I have found so far I Archibald Woodburn (b1801) is the son of John Woodburn and Janet Sellers. I believe that John was the brother of David.
Hi pharmaT,
This is the first time in ages that I have checked RootsChat and was surprised - and happy :) - to see that others had posted since I was last here. I have not much time to spare at the moment, but thought I would quickly mention what I know about this situation. From what I understand, the John who was married to Janet Sellers was not the brother of David Woodburn married to Jessie Caldwell; he was his father :o. John Woodburn (married to Janet Sellers) was born 1747 and had three wives; he had children with each (about 16 children in all). David Woodburn (born 1776 and husband of Jessie Caldwell) was born during his first marriage to Ann Guthrie. Archibald Woodburn (b.1801) was born during his second marriage to Janet Sillers. John later married Margaret Blair and had more children. He died in 1812. I discovered all this when I made contact with a descendant of George Woodburn who was another son of the John’s first marriage to Ann Guthrie.
This all means that Archibald Woodburn b.1801 would have been the half-brother of David Woodburn b.1776 and uncle of David Woodburn b.1805. Confusing I know.
Polly :)
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Hello again,
Polly - you said "Something that still mystifies me is how Archibald Woodburn (born 1801) was connected to the David Woodburn/Janet Caldwell family. I see there is an inscription for Archibald on the Woodburn grave..."
Well, I have just discovered the probate for Willie's will, in which it states that an Archibald Francis Woodburn was her nephew....
http://sharing.ancestry.com/7865457?h=ad1650&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url
Not the Archibald born in 1801, but perhaps there is a link somewhere?
Just a thought.....still looking :)
Hello Terri,
Thanks for the link to the probate for Willie’s will. That was good to get.
You will see my post to PharmaT about the connection between David Woodburn-Janet Caldwell family and Archibald Woodburn (b.1801). It appears David Woodburn (husband of Janet Caldwell) was the half-brother of Archibald Woodburn – their father, John Woodburn (b.1747) married three times. This means that Archibald was the uncle of the David Woodburn born 1805.
As for Archibald Francis Woodburn, I’m not completely sure of the family connection but feel he may have been a child of David Woodburn born 1805. I found this reference to Archibald online:
“MEN-AT-THE-BAR.
Woodburn, Archibald Francis, assistant collector and magistrate Bombay, a student of the Middle Temple II Nov., 1870, called to the bar 21 June, 1882 (2nd son of David Woodburn, Esq., of Camlarg Lodge, Dalmellington, co. Ayr); born, Ahmednagar, Bombay.”
…which doesn’t quite make sense ??? because “2nd son of David Woodburn, Esq, of Camlarg Lodge” would make him the son of the David Woodburn b.1776. But my guess is that Archibald Francis Woodburn was the son of David Woodburn (born 1805 and doctor in the Bengal Army) who definitely was the second son of David Woodburn of Camlarg Lodge. Confusing I know – too many Davids!
Another son of David Woodburn born 1805 was John Woodburn. He is mentioned on the Woodburn gravestone. Wikipedia has the following to say about this John Woodburn. He was quite renowned 8)
“Sir John Woodburn, KCSI (13 July 1843 – 21 November 1902) was an Indian Civil Servant, who later served as Lieutenant Governor of Bengal from 1898 to 1902.”
“He was born at Barrackpore in British India to David Woodburn. After early education at Arya Academy in Bengal, he went to England to study at Glasgow University and Edinburgh University.”
That’s all for now Terri,
Polly :)
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Hi from a chilly Hawkes Bay:) my WOOdBURNS who came to NZ hailed from Fenwick and earlier on from Loundoun..There is quite a concentration of them there
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Thanks for the info Polly, So was John an older father then for Archibald because big age difference between him and David.
Given the age of Archibald Francis makes more sense to be the son of David born 1805? You're right too many of the same first names.
Woodburn does seem to be a very Ayrshire name.
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Hi Polly,
I've just started researching my McEwin ancestors. I'm looking at a copy of an excerpt from the family bible of Margaret Hester McEwin, b.Apr 26, 1795, Caddington England, married John McEwin at Dumfries 19th Seot 1811. They migrated to Melbourne Australia in 1839 with their youngest six children - They had 10 sons & 1 daughter - including Andrew McEwin, who m'd in Melbourne & settled in N.Z., and my great great grandfather Joseph Nash McEwin.
Hi Diana,
I have finally caught up with your post.
Our records differ slightly as regards the marriage date for John McEwin and Margaret Hester Daniel. I have this date as 17 Sept 1815. I wonder if you got your info from Gavin McEwin’s book “McEwins in the Antipodes”. Some of my records differ slightly from his, although I do admire the fantastic work he put in considering he worked at it in the days before personal computers were readily available. His book inspired me to find out more about my ancestor Marion Woodburn, the wife of Andrew McEwin.
I see you are a descendant of Joseph Nash McEwin. That’s interesting! A son of Marion and Andrew, John Woodburn McEwin, lived some years in Western Australia (according to his death certificate) and when I discovered that two sons of Joseph Nash McEwin had lived there, I wondered if he had visited these cousins of his, or if they had encouraged him to come. However, such information is very difficult to confirm. It all happened a long time ago.
Great to make contact with you.
Polly :)
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I just joined RootsChat and saw this thread; hopefully it isn’t too late!
I descend from Woodburns from Galston Ayrshire. William Woodburn (b c 1785) and Christian Ferguson (b c 1785) are my 4th great grandparents. I am not positive who William’s parents were, but I believe they may have been the Alexander Woodburn and Mary Croser/Crozier referenced in Polyhow’s post back on page 6 of this thread.
William Woodburn and Christian Ferguson’s daughter, Anne Woodburn (my 3rd great grandmother) married a John Caldwell, who also hailed from Galston. John had many siblings and step siblings, but the only Janet appears to have died at the age of 17 in 1849.
I am not sure any of this is much help other than to verify that there were other connections between the Caldwells and Woodburns.
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Hello again,
Polly - you said "Something that still mystifies me is how Archibald Woodburn (born 1801) was connected to the David Woodburn/Janet Caldwell family. I see there is an inscription for Archibald on the Woodburn grave..."
Well, I have just discovered the probate for Willie's will, in which it states that an Archibald Francis Woodburn was her nephew....
http://sharing.ancestry.com/7865457?h=ad1650&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url
Not the Archibald born in 1801, but perhaps there is a link somewhere?
Just a thought.....still looking :)
Hello Terri,
Thanks for the link to the probate for Willie’s will. That was good to get.
You will see my post to PharmaT about the connection between David Woodburn-Janet Caldwell family and Archibald Woodburn (b.1801). It appears David Woodburn (husband of Janet Caldwell) was the half-brother of Archibald Woodburn – their father, John Woodburn (b.1747) married three times. This means that Archibald was the uncle of the David Woodburn born 1805.
As for Archibald Francis Woodburn, I’m not completely sure of the family connection but feel he may have been a child of David Woodburn born 1805. I found this reference to Archibald online:
“MEN-AT-THE-BAR.
Woodburn, Archibald Francis, assistant collector and magistrate Bombay, a student of the Middle Temple II Nov., 1870, called to the bar 21 June, 1882 (2nd son of David Woodburn, Esq., of Camlarg Lodge, Dalmellington, co. Ayr); born, Ahmednagar, Bombay.”
…which doesn’t quite make sense ??? because “2nd son of David Woodburn, Esq, of Camlarg Lodge” would make him the son of the David Woodburn b.1776. But my guess is that Archibald Francis Woodburn was the son of David Woodburn (born 1805 and doctor in the Bengal Army) who definitely was the second son of David Woodburn of Camlarg Lodge. Confusing I know – too many Davids!
Another son of David Woodburn born 1805 was John Woodburn. He is mentioned on the Woodburn gravestone. Wikipedia has the following to say about this John Woodburn. He was quite renowned 8)
“Sir John Woodburn, KCSI (13 July 1843 – 21 November 1902) was an Indian Civil Servant, who later served as Lieutenant Governor of Bengal from 1898 to 1902.”
“He was born at Barrackpore in British India to David Woodburn. After early education at Arya Academy in Bengal, he went to England to study at Glasgow University and Edinburgh University.”
That’s all for now Terri,
Polly :)
I have found a copy of an obituary (found it yesterday) of the David Woodburn, the one who died in 1888. In it it says that after retiral he split his time between Camlarg and his house in Ayr (Barns St). Jessie Caldwell or Woodburn also had lived in a house in South Beach Troon which she had named Camlarg, it still has Camlarg carved into the gatepost today.
As an aside it claims that John (the father) was the croupier at the first Kilmarnock Burns Club, Burns supper.