RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Parmesan on Tuesday 06 January 15 21:46 GMT (UK)
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Is anyone able to translate please :)
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In the year eighteen hundred and ninety-eight, the 8th November, at 8 o'clock before noon, before me Bernard van der Stricht, Ships Agent, official of the civil registry of Hermele(?) appeared:
Emile Van de Kerckhove, forty three years old, wheelwright and innkeeper, born in Schoorisse and Jan Baptist van Waeyenberghe forty seven years old entrepreuner born locally, both living in Hermele, the first man and the second neighbours of the deceased,
which have declared before us today for an hour and half's in this municipality, having homes on Groenelaan has died Prudentia Modde, forty two year old, born in Opfrakel and living in Hermele, daughter of Petrus Modde, deceased of Segelsem, and Theresia De Temmerman, farmer and innkeeper, living in Opfrakel, wife of the first declarer, we have prepared this document.
Can't promise that's 100%, but it's close!! ;D
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Excellent, I'm so grateful. Thank you :-*
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Good job KGarrad, almost perfect (99% ;D), only a few adjustements
In the year eighteen hundred and ninety-eight, the 8th November, at 8 o'clock before noon, before me Bernard van der Stricht, alderman, official of the civil registry of Herzele appeared:
Emile Van de Kerckhove, forty three years old, wheelwright and innkeeper, born in Schorisse and Jan Baptist van Waeyenberghe forty seven years old, entrepreuner, born locally, both living in Herzele, the first husband and the second neighbour of the deceased,
which have declared before us that today at 1 hour and a half in the morning in this municipality, in her home in the Groenlaan has died Prudentia Modde, forty two year old, seamstress, born in Opbrakel and living in Herzele, daughter of Petrus Modde deceased in Zegelsem and of Theresia De Temmerman, farmer and innkeeper living in Opbrakel, wife of the first declarant, of which we have prepared this document, which we have signed with the declarants after the reading.
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Brilliant thanks! :-*
I have been looking on the map for Hermele and then trying to find something that looked like it ;D
Interesting that she is married but the death is recorded in her maiden name. That par for the course in Belgium?
I wish there were more Brakel, Lierde region records!
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This is saying Petrus died in Zegelsem?
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Good job KGarrad, almost perfect (99% ;D), only a few adjustements
Dankuwel, Leen!
I have to admit, I did struggle with the "officialese", especially the last sentence!! :D
My Dutch is conversational, rather than official jargon ::)
But pleased with the score of 99%! ;D
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I remembered I had contacted an official in Belgium in 2010 who was very helpful and sent me my grandfather's birth record so I emailed him again to see if you would kindly translate the new document and he did.
"Below please find the essential information derived from the death certificate of Prudentia Modde.
She died in HERZELE (it is written Herzeele in the certificate but in modern Dutch one “e” was deleted)
in 1898 on the 8th of November Prudentia Modde was 42 years old and she was born in Opbrakel as daughter of Petrus Modde who died in Zegelsem and Theresia De Temmerman, living in Opbrakel, profession: female farmer and tavern keeper. Her husband is Emile Vande Kerckhove. He was born in Schorisse and he is 43 years old. His profession is coach-builder and tavern keeper. Prudentia died in her house located at Groenlaan (“Groen” is green and “laan” is lane) in Herzele. This street still exists."
I give you both 10 of 10 for being so helpful and quick. Thanks both. :-*
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Leen is Belgian, and Flemish - so I would expect her to get it right!
I'm just a Brit who lived in the Netherlands for 16 years (for English-speaking companies) - that's why I get a bit lost with official Dutch!! ::) ;D
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well I got as far as recognising the names so you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of me.
Dutch looks horrendous to learn ;D
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These records are great (I have found images on family search), they give lots of information, if only I could read them all ;D
I'm having to browse as search doesn't seem to find folk!
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may I prevail upon you again with another record and will endeavour to use it as a template for others I find? This is my grandfather's brother :)
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Graag gedaan Kgarrad welverdiend, the official language makes it difficult (no one speaks like that), but also the old spelling and writing I would think (and because it’s Flemisch, not Dutch, wat het moeilijker maakt voor een Brit die 16 jaar in Nederland gewoond heeft en makkelijker voor een Belgische die al heel haar leven in Vlaanderen woont ;D)
Prudentia her death was registered under her maiden name because, according to the Belgian law, the only valid and legitimate name is the one on your birth cert. One can use their partner’s name but not on official documents.
Most records for the region Brakel and Lierde are online, parish records : ca 1650-1796, and civil registration records : ca 1796-1910 (some earlier ca 1605, some later up to and including 1912), partly on the Belgian State Archives and partly on FamilySearch.
Brakel = the merged municipalities Elst, Everbeek, Michelbeke, Nederbrakel, Opbrakel, Zegelsem, Parike
Lierde = the merged municipalities Deftinge, Sint-Maria-Lierde, Hemelveerdegem, Sint-Martens-Lierde
Yes Parmesan, it states that Petrus Modde died in Zegelsem (the cert is on FamilySearch he died on 25/07/1878 , his given name is Cletus not Petrus)
Birth cert n° 1 - Charles Louis Emiel Van Achter
In the year 1888, the 4th Januari, at 3 o’clock in the afternoon, before us Alfons Van den Dooren, mayor, officer of the civil registry of the municipality Nederbrakel, judical district Oudenaarde, province East Flanders has appeared : Victor Van Achter, 28 years old, mason, living here, who has shown us a child of the masculine gender, born in this municipality yesterday at 4 o’clock in the morning, from him the appearer and from Leonie Modde, 25 years old, seamstress, his wife, living with him, to wich child he declared he want to give the first names of Charles Louis Emiel. The aforesaid declaration and presentation was done in the presence of Edmond Blommert, 35 years old, slaughterer and Constant Weemaes, 28 years old, land surveyor, both living here, witnesses requested by the declarant, who have signed, beside us, this declaration of birth immediately after the reading. The appearer declared not being able to write.
Leen
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Brilliant Leen, that is all really interesting, it really is! I'm glad you said about Petrus/Cletus. I had Cletius initially but the record with Petrus everything else fit. Then I found today, all the images on Family Search and have been parked all day browsing and finding lots of family records. I wish I could search! Lots more birth records showed Petrus to be Cletus.
Would you like to move in with me for a bit? ;D
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You’re welcome Parmezan,
If you don’t know the dead date of Theresia De Temmerman : according her funeral card (in dutch : een bidprentje or een doodsprentje) on the website of the Local History association of Brakel-Lierde-Horebeke ‘Triverius’ (Geschied- en Heemkundige Kring Triverius), she died at Opbrakel the 5th January 1913. Prudentia’s funeral card is also on it.
http://www.triverius.be/indexfrx.htm?bidprenten.php put de temmerman or modde in the box next to ‘wijzig filter’ and click on ‘Pas filter toe’ or enter.
death cert of Theresia’s husband : Cletus Modde + Zegelsem 25/07/1878
The year 1878, 25th July at 5 o’clock in the afternoon, before us Bernard De Cock, alderman, delegated by the municipal executive on the 7th January 1873 as officer of the civil registry of the municipality Zegelsem, have appeared : Louis Modde, 56 years old, watchmaker, living in this municipality at the Rovorst, and Louis Teirlinck, 58 years old, farrier, living here at the Plaats, the first brother and the second acquaintance of the deceased, who have declared to us that today at 7 o’clock in the morning Cletus Modde, 54 years old, innkeeper and shopkeeper, born and living at Opbrakel at the Kempstraat, son of the late Josephus Modde and the late Amelia Desmet, widower of Dominica De Cubber, now husband of Theresia De Temmerman, housekeeper, living at Opbrakel at the Kempstraat, 46 years old; has been found dead in the place named Kanakkendries in this municipality; and the appearers have signed with us after the reading.
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Wowser! thanks for all that. If I read correctly that gives me a new generation, Cletus' parents! Many, many thanks. I will come back to this as not at home and difficult to look at stuff. I will, if I may, post another couple of documents if you could look at them and clear something up for me?
This is really brilliant, thank you so much :-*
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Cletus is not coming up on Triverius, is that where you found him?
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I know this is an awful cheek keep asking but could you give me the gist of this marriage record for Joseph Modde and Amelia De Smet. I've tried to fathom it with no luck and it mentions a DeTemmerman couple - who are they, any idea? I wasn't actually looking for this but spotted the names from your previous post - I wouldn't have know otherwise!
Many thanks.
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part two
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part three, theres a bit more but I'm sure not that relevant!
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Cletus isn’t on Triverius, if you mean his death cert, that’s on familysearch, here is the link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ehv/
Yet another generation Parmesan, It’s the marriage of Cletus his parents, the ‘De Temmerman’ on this marriage cert is Cletus his grandmother, I will send you the full translation later
dates : dd/mm/yy
Marriage of Josephus Modde and Amelia De Smet - Zegelsem 29/10/1818, 03:00 p.m.
groom : Josephus Modde, 36 years old, born Opbrakel 01/10/1782, farmer, widower of Catharina Van Der Meulen deceased Opbrakel 18/04/1818
parents : Jacobus Modde deceased Opbrakel 07/12/1801 and Catharina De Temmerman deceased Zegelsem 18/09/1817
bride : Amelia De Smet, 30 years old, born Strijpen 09/03/1788, farmer, widow of Francies Van Pevenaege deceased Zegelsem 27/12/1818
parents : Jean Baptiste De Smet and Joanna Catharina Hanssens deceased Strijpen 19/07/1792
witnesses : Josephus De Prez, 47 years old, farmer, Charles Van Den Abeele, 38 years old, farmer, Jean Baptiste Van Der Hauwert, 24 years old, clogs maker, Jean Baptiste Sera, 30 years old, innkeeper, neither friends, nor relatives of the couple
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Many thanks Leen. These records are so much better than English ones, so much information!
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ah, it took me half an hour to shrink that link (I wasnt logged in ::)) and then she isn’t working !
well, this one does : Cletus Modde death cert http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ehw/
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It says I don't have permission to the link http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ehv/ ?
If its Family Search I can find that :)
oops crossed posts - many thanks, I do appreciate your help.
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Do you have any idea what year this is?
Jaar 5 (Fransche Republiek)
clueless!
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year 5 = from 22 september 1796 - up to and including 21 september 1797
There are several good online convertors
http://www.napoleon.org:81/en/essential_napoleon/calendar/index.asp (English)
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franse_Republikeinse_Kalender/Y1 (Dutch - French)
The full translation of the marriage cert
Marriage of Josephus Modde and Amelia De Smet - Zegelsem 29/10/1818
The year 1818
The 29th October at 3 o’clock in the afternoon, before us Jean Baptiste Coman, mayor, officer of the civil registration of the municipality Zegelsem, province East Flanders, have appeared Josephus Modde, 36 years old, born at Opbrakel the 1th October 1782, farmer of profession, adult son of the late Jacobus and the late Catharina De Temmerman, both deceased in Opbrakel and in Zegelsem respectively on the date 16 frimaire year 10 and 18 September 1817, as stated in the death certificates, the first delivered by the mayor of Opbrakel and the second held in the town hall of this place, widower of Catharina Van Der Meulen, deceased in Opbrakel the 18th April last, as stated in the death certificate delivered by the mayor of Opbrakel, one part.
And Amelia De Smet, born in Strijpen the 9th March 1788, , 30 years old, farmer, living in Zegelsem, daughter of the still living Jean Baptiste, consenting, as stated in the power of attorney executed at Velzeke the 24th of this month October, properly registered at Zottegem by Lamanberg ? (surnumeraire / supernumerary ?), the same day , 134 R.G. 5, at the rate permitted by the law, wich power of attorney will be added to this present deed; and from de late Joanna Catharina Hanssens, deceased in Strijpen the 19th July 1792 as stated in the death certificate delivered by the mayor of Strijpen, widow of Francies Van Pevenaege, deceased in Zegelsem the 27th December last. The other part.
Which appearers have requested us to proceed with the celebration of the marriage devised between them, and of which the publication already have been done before de main entrance of our town hall and also at Opbrakel respectively at the 11th and 18th of this month October each time at 10 o’clock in the morning, no opposition to this marriage being reported to us, doing justice to their request, after the reading to the appearers by us off alle the abovementioned documents and of chapter six entitled The Marriage, we have asked the future groom and future bride wether they want to take each other as husband an as wife, each of them, individually, responded with Yes, we declared in the name of the law that Josephus Modde and Amelia De Smet are united in marriage. Of which we have drawn up this act in the presence of Josephus De Prez, 47 years old, farmer, living in Nederbrakel, Charles Van Den Abeele, 38 years old, farmer, living in Erwtegem, Jean Baptiste Van Der Hauwert, 24 years old, clogs maker and Jean Baptiste Sera, 30 years old, innkeeper, living in Zegelsem, who have declared not being relatives nor friends of the appearing parties, and after the reading they have signed the present act with us and the bride, except the first witness and the groom who have declared not being able to write.
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I'll say it again, what fabulous, full of information records! Thank you again so much and for the calendars. :-*
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Incidentally, its pretty much the same today!
I was working in Maastricht, when a Belgian colleague announced that he was "going up before the mayor"?
That really confused us Brits, until we were told that it was the Civil Marriage ceremony! ;D
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Still trawling through records.
Deftinge was AWASH with boys called Jean Baptiste ;D
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Can anyone explain what Tienjarige tafels are. Some refer to births and marriages but can't find all family members within the pages?
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also please :) can you tell me this age? I can see 60 but not sure if there's a bit more I'm missing lol
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sorry :-[ and this age? please. These will help me establish birth years.
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tienjarige tafels : ten-year tables, ten-year indexes, unlike the annual index, usually at the end of the register, is this an alphabetical listing of the births, marriages or deaths per ten years, handy if you dont know when the event took place
60 is correct, oudt t’sestig jaeren = oud zestig jaren, sixty years old
oud drij en sestig jaeren = oud drieënzestig jaren, sixty-three years old
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Many thanks. I thought 3 was drie - confused or what! ;D
I am getting to recognise the relevant bits though!
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here I am again! :)
can you decipher the parents names please? The spouse is Constantin Lievens and the father 'looks' like Jon Verbeken and the mother Marie Anne De Clerch
You may be more familiar with this names than me!
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sorry, another query ;)
The father named here has another name in brackets, is there a reason stated, or any idea why? Thanks.
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oops one more!
the place name that looks like Heerhuyze! Thank you.
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daughter of Jan Verbeken and of Marie Anne De Clerck
his name is Van Caenegem, the name between the brackets is an writing error of the Registrar, when the mistake is noticed after the reading of the act, usually the improvement and the approval by the appearers and witnesses, is mentioned in the margin or at the end of the cert.
Steenhuyze = Steenhuize (now Steenhuize-Wijnhuize)
Groetjes
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Excellent! Dankjewel Leen :-*
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me again ::)
does this say Victor is residing in France?! please. What does is say about Leonie is living?
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I think it says France (Frankrijk), and Leonie in Nederbrakel
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thanks. They had more children after so he must have come back ;D
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What it says is that he was "residing in Nederbrakel and currently residing (to say) in France"
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yes I thought so. Maybe it was work or something. I'll never know!
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Can you please confirm I have details correct here? Some of the words look different to those I'm used to!
Jean Baptiste is aged seventy? or more?
Son of Adrian? and
Marie Gryfordonk - lol, not seen that before!
Widower of Joanne Catherine Hanssens - I knew that
Is there another Catherine - current wife?
Many thanks.
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the age of Jean Baptiste De Smet is correct
son of Adrian (ende van /and of) Marie Grypdonck, widower of the one you knew, (ende van tweeden huwelijke van / and of second marriage of) Catherine Hulin, both deceased
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thank you leen. Never come across Grypdonck before.
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hello again ::) ;D
Does this say where Francois died? I have 22 March 1820 (?) in the town? This is Segelsem but can't find in the records? Thanks.
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I've got a strange one too. A marriage for direct ancestors ages 50ish and 40ish. Looking at the 3 births I have the father's age is inconclusive, does not compute which each record. Would people who married during the French occupation want to remarry later, was that common. Or maybe they just didn't tie the knot until later. Can you see if there is anything in the marriage record to indicate they have been together some time? Thanks.
Van Haezevelde and Van Den Abeele
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14184-18990-13?cc=2138513&wc=STXQ-YWG:1009327401,1068763401
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scrap that last one, I think it must be people with the same names as I have seen two records now showing Francois' death in 1820.
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Goeienavond Parmesan,
yes it does say where he is deceased :
Francies overleden in deze gemeente (Francies deceased in this municipality) den twee en twintigste maert achtien hondert acht en twintig (achtien honderd acht en twintig / achtienhonderdachtentwintig / 1828)
The marriage van Haesevelde - Van den Abeele
‘scrap the last one’ No, I don’t! ;D Your first thoughts were right, they were already married in the church (22 September 1800) but that wasn’t legal (French occupation, indeed, the introduction of civil status). Clerical marriages were allowed but had ( and has) no legal validity. So, you were right (clever)
first part of the marriage : Zegelsem 31/05/1826, 04:00 p.m.
groom : Franciscus Van haesevelde, 51 years old, labourer, born and living Zegelsem, unmarried
parents : Pieter Van haesevelde deceased Zegelsem 02/01/1821 and Theresia De Vos deceased 08/10/1810
bride : Theresia Van den Abeele, 40 years old, born an living Zegelsem, unmarried, spinster of profession,
parents : Johannes Van den Abeele, deceased Zegelsem 17 vendemaire year 13, and Francisca Rousse, deceased Zegelsem 14/02/1820
after the part : ‘Franciscus Van haesevelde en Theresia Van den Abeele door den huwelijksband vereenigd zijn’ :
presently both have decleared to us that four childeren, of the male and female gender, were born of them, registered in the register of births of this municipality on 25 brumaire year 11, 21th March 1806, 12th July 1812 and the 1th June 1816 with the names Karel, Jacobus, Catherina and Petrus Van haesevelde, of which sons and daughter they declared that they are their childeren
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wow that is brilliant Leen, thank you so much! Those are the four children I have. Laboriously found page by page!
The attachment (thank you :) ) is that from this site?
http://search.arch.be/en/zoeken-naar-personen/zoekresultaat/q/persoon_achternaam_t_0/van%20canaghem/q/persoon_beroep_s_0/Beroep%E2%80%A6/q/persoon_overig_0/Andere%20gegevens%E2%80%A6/q/persoon_achternaam_t_1/Achternaam%E2%80%A6/q/persoon_voornaam_t_1/Voornaam%E2%80%A6/q/akte_custom_t_akte_omschrijving/Omschrijving%20akte%E2%80%A6?text=Vrij+zoeken%E2%80%A6&periode=Periode%E2%80%A6&M=0&V=0&O=1&persoon_periode_0=Periode%E2%80%A6&persoon_plaats_0=%7BNEDERBRAKEL%7D&persoon_0_periode_soort=overlijden&persoon_0_periode_geen=0&plaatsnaam=%7BNEDERBRAKEL%7D&aktegemeente=Aktegemeente%E2%80%A6&akteperiode=Akteperiode%E2%80%A6
I keep getting nil results! :'(
Its an affliction not being able to read Dutch! ;D
ps I have now found Francois death registration :)
pps and there was another child Augustus born 1810 but he must have died before 1826
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I've tried and tried to find that marriage on the parish registers, what am I doing wrong?
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I've tried and tried to find that marriage on the parish registers, what am I doing wrong?
Nothing. There is a big difference between the Belgian and the UK online archives. Those in the UK seem to be almost completely transcribed an searchable, but the original documents are rarely online, while in Belgium almost all registers are online but they have not (yet) been indexed and aren't searchable.
In other words: looking for a person typing in a name in the search field will yield very few results. You need to browse the registers. If you have a date and a place, that's easy. If you have an approximate date and a place, you can browse through the annual alphabetical lists which are often included at the end of each year. They will refer to the correct page.
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Yes Parmasan, that’s the site, the Belgian State Archives http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en
The page where you are on ’ Zoeken naar personen - Search persons’ is the database with transcriptions of the certs, etc, (not complete, updated regularly), the search results are not linked to the images.
To search / browse the records you must be logged in, so you need to register first (free) http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en&m=genealogist&r=genealogy-how-to-get-started (see ‘Search digital archives on the State Archives website’)
Search the records :
via the page ‘Genealogy : how to get started ?’ : click on the link ‘Parish registers’
(or via the page were you are on (search persons) : click on the tab ‘Thuispagina’, click ‘Overview church registers’)
click on :
- Province East-Flanders (district Oudenaarde)
- Zegelsem (Brakel). parochie Sint-Ursmarus
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
- 04/10/1796 - 16/10/1806
- on the tab ‘Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (281)’
- an image
- go to page 267 (with the buttons below in the screen or enter 267 in the box next to : ‘Direct naar’)
to return click on :
- the X (top right of image screen)
- ‘inventaris van de parochieregister. Arrondissement Oudenaarde (digitaal)/M.Decrits.’
direct link to the image (log in to view) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ejg/
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Thanks, that's what I'm doing on Family Search - browsing but it seems easier to do! I want to look at pre 1796 records and they are on the Belgian parishregisters. If Leen found that record, I should be able to too, darn it! ;D
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Yes Parmasan, that’s the site, the Belgian State Archives http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en
The page where you are on ’ Zoeken naar personen - Search persons’ is the database with transcriptions of the certs, etc, (not complete, updated regularly), the search results are not linked to the images.
To search / browse the records you must be logged in, so you need to register first (free) http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en&m=genealogist&r=genealogy-how-to-get-started (see ‘Search digital archives on the State Archives website’)
Search the records :
via the page ‘Genealogy : how to get started ?’ : click on the link ‘Parish registers’
(or via the page were you are on (search persons) : click on the tab ‘Thuispagina’, click ‘Overview church registers’)
click on :
- Province East-Flanders (district Oudenaarde)
- Zegelsem (Brakel). parochie Sint-Ursmarus
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
- 04/10/1796 - 16/10/1806
- on the tab ‘Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (281)’
- an image
- go to page 267 (with the buttons below in the screen or enter 267 in the box next to : ‘Direct naar’)
to return click on :
- the X (top right of image screen)
- ‘inventaris van de parochieregister. Arrondissement Oudenaarde (digitaal)/M.Decrits.’
direct link to the image (log in to view) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ejg/
sorry crossed posts! I have got a login :) I will try and follow your instructions and see how I get on. Thanks once again :-*
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SUCCESS!!! Gosh I'm very much in your debt Leen, you are so helpful, thank you :)
So is it as Tom says, you have to browse?
I'm used to that ;D
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As an aside when the Eurostar train service was set up, every applicant for driver in Britain was tested to ensure their ability to learn to speak and read both French and Flemish. If you failed that then you could not drive Eurostar. So the literal answer to the question is Yes, Find a Eurostar driver who likes family history!
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As an aside when the Eurostar train service was set up, every applicant for driver in Britain was tested to ensure their ability to learn to speak and read both French and Flemish. If you failed that then you could not drive Eurostar. So the literal answer to the question is Yes, Find a Eurostar driver who likes family history!
Interesting! However I have found Leen, until he/she gets fed up of me! ;D
Question for Leen ;)
On the parish register site the 'full screen' button doesn't seem to work (for me) how do I download a copy of the document? Or can't you. Up to now I have been using a snipping tool when the event fits the smaller screen. Thanks.
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Interesting! However I have found Leen, until he/she gets fed up of me! ;D
Definitely a She!
And there's also one or two of us they try to help!
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Of course! You have been very helpful also :-* as has everyone on these boards over the years :)
What a fantastic site it is and I would be nowhere without the help I've received.
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On the parish register site the 'full screen' button doesn't seem to work (for me) how do I download a copy of the document? Or can't you. Up to now I have been using a snipping tool when the event fits the smaller screen. Thanks.
Strangely enough, full screen on that site means just some slightly bigger window (flash) on top of your original window, not a real "full screen". Unfortunately you can't download, you need to "print screen".
On Apple you do cmd+shift+4 and you select the region you want to save. It is automatically saved on our desktop.
On pc, you download an application (if it is not installed already) called "snip". Once you open it, you can do just the same: cut the part you want to save, and save it where and under what name you want.
If you want a civil administration record ("Burgerlijke Stand", after 1796) I recommend you look it up on familysearch.com, where you can download it :)
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Thanks Tom for the information. :)
I am using the snipping tool but having to snip in sections - oh well!
I am also using Family Search but for my area it seems they only have images for 1796 onwards so the parish register comes in handy for earlier records.
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I have another question. Registering a death - is it like here where you have to register in the district where the person died?
I can't find a death for Frederick Detemmerman. He is aged 69 at his daughter's wedding in 1854, his wife is 62. I then went through all the deaths from 1854 to 1874, the year of his wife's death registration where she is noted as widow of Frederick. It doesn't seem to say how old he was or when he died. Am I missing something?
The death of Frederick's wife Isabelle van der Linden
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21315-29016-81?cc=2138513&wc=STFZ-PTP:1009327401,1068831901
Thanks :)
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More confusion :-[
Looking in the parish registers for Elst. I found ancestor Isabella Van Der Linden 7 November 1787 page 64 of the register. Only problem I can't find her in the register or any Van Der Lindens I noted in case they were related. The page number doesn't match up with either the actual register or the automated numbers at the bottom. Never mind I thought, I'll just search the date, still no joy. I seriously think my brain cells are being destroyed one by one :-\
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0517_109887_108684_DUT/inventarisnr/I109887108684125/level/file/scan-index/2/foto/517_0901_000_00019_000_0_0003
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can anyone recognise this place name please?
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I have another question. Registering a death - is it like here where you have to register in the district where the person died?
I can't find a death for Frederick Detemmerman. He is aged 69 at his daughter's wedding in 1854, his wife is 62. I then went through all the deaths from 1854 to 1874, the year of his wife's death registration where she is noted as widow of Frederick. It doesn't seem to say how old he was or when he died. Am I missing something?
The death of Frederick's wife Isabelle van der Linden
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21315-29016-81?cc=2138513&wc=STFZ-PTP:1009327401,1068831901
Thanks :)
Yes, normally you always register a death in the city/village were the deceased has died. If he was living in another city, they should have a mention in their register - often a couple of weeks later or at the end of the book - that they were "informed by city X about the death of...".
The wife's death is 1875 so you missed out on a year worth of deaths :)
If they have other children who married after 1875, their marriage certificates would have the deaths of the deceased in them.
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More confusion :-[
Looking in the parish registers for Elst. I found ancestor Isabella Van Der Linden 7 November 1787 page 64 of the register. Only problem I can't find her in the register or any Van Der Lindens I noted in case they were related. The page number doesn't match up with either the actual register or the automated numbers at the bottom. Never mind I thought, I'll just search the date, still no joy. I seriously think my brain cells are being destroyed one by one :-\
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0517_109887_108684_DUT/inventarisnr/I109887108684125/level/file/scan-index/2/foto/517_0901_000_00019_000_0_0003
At that time, they didn't bother with spelling or names much. If you need someone called "Van der Linden", they might also be Vander Linden, Vanderlinden or even Verlinden or Lindemans (!).
Anyway. I don't see Isabella on page 64... I do see Isabella Van der Linden on page 67 of the same register, daughter of Jozef Van der Linden and Maria Machtelings, born on January 11, 1794.
The entry in the baptism register is on page 66 of the following:
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0517_109887_108684_DUT/inventarisnr/I1098871086841101/level/file/scan-index/6/foto/517_0900_000_00089_000_0_0011
The text is in Latin, here is a translation:
ii januarii circa undecimam mane
natam et in partum baptisatam sub
conditione et baptisavi Isabellam
filiam legitimam Josephi Van der Linden
ex Nederbrakel et Maria Machtelinx
ex Segelsem hic habitantium quam
susceperunt Carolus Machtelinx
et Maria Ludovica Van der Linden
Jacobus Achten pastor in Else
On January 11th at about 11am was born en partly baptised in special conditions and baptised by me, Isabella, legitimate daughter of Joseph Van der Linden from nederbrakel and Maria Machtelings from Zegelsem, living here (in Elst). The witnesses are Carolus Machtelings and Maria Ludovica Van der Linden.
(signed) Jacobus Achten, pastor (priest) in Elst.
The "sub conditione" is a special thing you will bump into a lot. Children who weren't baptised, would go to limbo. A horrible place, almost worse than hell. It was very important for people living up to the 19th century to have their babies baptised as soon as possible. Most were baptised only one day after birth, two at most (while I have an English GGG-grandma who was baptised at the age of 8...). If a birth was difficult, or the baby was in bad health, the midwife could do an emergency baptism on the spot. A child can never be baptised twice, but people wanted to make sure that the child was really baptised and the midwife didn't make a mistake. If the child survived, the priest performed another baptism "sub conditione", "with proviso" or "just in case", which means that the second baptism is only valid in case the first was done poorly.
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can anyone recognise this place name please?
Velzeke in Oost-Vlaanderen, 8km or 5 miles walk from Elst.
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and Frederick’s death, Parmesan
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-24132-24559-16?cc=2138513&wc=STFX-MNB:1009327401,1068767601
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Excellent Tom, thanks so much.
I knew I had put the wrong year for Isabelle's death but I did look at the register up to her death, did it say anything her registration about where Frederick died? I think it said 'in this municipality'?
Thanks for finding Isabelle which would confirm your statement about spellings! I have her mother as Mastelinck! Also thanks for the place name :)
I'll be back no doubt! ;D
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and Frederick’s death, Parmesan
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-24132-24559-16?cc=2138513&wc=STFX-MNB:1009327401,1068767601
My, but you're good! Thanks ever so much. After seeing that I went back to 1868 and found him straight away, I'd looked at so many pages - twice - I was reading his name as Judicus ::)
A thousand thanks!
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Those Tienjarige tafels are an index of births, marriages and deaths? :THUD!: ::)
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Goede dag
Can you help with this one please? If I'm reading it correctly Benedictus is the natural son of Maria Ludovica Devos and he earns his living in Nederbrakel? I thought I was looking at Maria's husband? Can someone translate please?
Dankjewel :)
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May I just make you aware that is Dutch, and not Flemish. Flemish or Belgian themselves are not languages, Flemish is made up of French, German & Dutch.
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Sorry Steve, complete rubbish!
Flemish is a version of Dutch, according to the the people who speak it.
Belgium is split into 2 regions: Walloon, where they speak French, and Vlanderen (Flanders in English) where they speak Flemish.
German is spoken in areas by the German border, but by less than 1% of the total population.
Before the pedants interrupt, there is a 3rd region, Brussels, a bilingual area.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Belgium
Just to add that, when Belgian (Flemish) TV shows are aired within the Netherlands, they usually have Dutch subtitles!
The Dutch consider Flemish to be a variant of Dutch - much as we think of Scouse, Geordie and Glaswegian as variants of English! ;D
(I was resident in the Netherlands for 16 years!)
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Goeienavond, goedenavond,
his mother is not listed, it says :
registration Nederbrakel 30 December 1829, 10 a.m.
declarants : Josephus Deridder, 49 years old, farmer, neighbor of the deceased and Leo Van , 36 years old, clerk, acquaintance of the deceased
Benedictus Van Achter, 62 years old, mason, living at Nederbrakel, deceased last night, 12 o’clock, at home located in the Herreweg, Nederbrakel, son of Pieter, husband of Maria Ludovica Devos.
saluutjes, doei
Leen
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Thanks Leen. A bit of new info there, I didn't know who his father was (or mother) and he's from Baelegem according to his childrens birth records. I presume this spellings equates to Balegem not Beelegem? Which is a shame as Balegem is not on the parish register site :(
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Yes that should be Balegem and the good news it is available, see : Province East-Flanders (district Gent) :D
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Thank goodness for you! :-*
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I am seeing quite often the name Marie or Maria as the first name but then it will disappear again and not be seen on other records. I'm beginning to think this is not part of the actual name and is used as some kind of prefix for females?
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Are you sure it's Maria?
And not Mevrw - short for Mevrouw? ;D
That essentially means My Lady or Mrs!
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lol, no I've seen vrouw and occaisonally mevrw but these definitely Maria or Marie.
Eg marriage records no Maria(e) baptismal records Maria(e) in some instances.
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goede avond allemaal
Can I ask for a translation of Van Achter/Beersnaert at bottom of page and next page please?
There are lots of people mentioned - names I know, and lots of dates but which refers to which and is there any clue where Joseph Van Achter was born - stumped on that one! Thanks :)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-21089-8270-87?cc=2138513&wc=STF4-DP8:1068834801,1068895902
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Just found one that died in hospital, does that mean the death register won't be on Family Search? Where would it be. Damn! ;D
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online, I guess. All deaths (births, marriages) should be registered at the civil registry, wherever the event took place.
the marriage of Van Achter Petrus - Bernaert (with a lot of names and dates (dd/mm/yy))
civil registration officer : Louis De Wilde, mayor of Nederbrakel
marriage publication : Nederbrakel Sundays 14 and 21/05/1871
marriage : Nederbrakel 31/05/1871
groom : Petrus Van Achter, 26 years old, born Nederbrakel 23/12/1844, unmarried, living in Nederbrakel, mason
parents : Josephus Van Achter, deceased Nederbrakel 09/01/1859
Catharina Van Haezevelde, deceased Nederbrakel 18/02/1850
paternal grandparents : Benedictus Van Achter, deceased Nederbrakel 29/12/1829
Marie Louise De Vos, deceased Nederbrakel 28/01/1841
maternal grandparents : Franciscus Van Haezevelde, deceased Zegelsem 22/03/1828
Theresia Van den Abeele, deceased Zegelsem 01/03/1845
bride : Marie Blondina Bernaert, 19 years old, born Erwtegem 29/02/1852, natural daughter, unmarried, living in Nederbrakel, glove seamstress
mother : Constancia Bernaert , 50 years old, living in Nederbrakel, glove seamstress, present and consenting
witnesses : Marinus Ramsdam, 50 years old, innkeeper; Jan Baptiste Denie, 35 years old, (blikslager / whitesmith/tinsmith); Pieter Francies Surdiacourt, 49 years old, innkeeper; Louis Blommaert, 32 years old, (gemeenteontvanger / commune finance manager ?), all residing Nederbrakel, no relatives of the couple.
groetjes
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many thanks Leen, couple of useful things in there :)
I don't think she died in hospital it just looks like that ;D but when I translated from English to Dutch it looks nothing like 'hospitaal' ;D
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Hospital in Dutch is Ziekenhuis!
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yup, I found that out ;D The dutch word looked like hospitaal, so I put two and two together and came up with 5 ;D
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Can you figure out this birthplace from a latin birth? Other records seem to say Elst but I can't find the info there so hoping this alternative will bear more fruit. If I can figure out where it is!
Thanks.
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all I see is an e(spot) conjug[um] can you post a little more of the cert, or the link ?
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Hi, hmm yes, maybe not a place name. I thought the first bit said 'ex'. As I said other records say Anna Catharine or Catherine De Temmerman is from Elst but I can't find anything in the records at the right age. Her death record puts her at 65 in 1817 so therefore born in 1752 but her first child is born in 1765. The death record has gaps for parents names.
I originally had her as just Catharina but marriage and baptisms of her children have her mostly as Anna Catharina.
Thanks Leen.
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Your right, ‘ex’ it is (or was), the next word is definitely ‘conjug(um)’, so not a place name.
It wasn’t uncommon at that time that they called someone by his middle name, especially when several family members had the same first name. During the early years of civil registration it happened often that the deceased was registered under the name by which they were known, which was not always the correct or the full name.
The declarants on the death cert were not related to Catharina, that may be the reason for the name, and that age which is definitely wrong.
She married in 1763, the average age of marriage was then 24 years.
Assumming that she was born ca 1739, in Elst, father’s name Franciscus (stated on the baptism cert of Catharina’s first son) :
what do you think of this one (the 5th on the left page) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ely/ (log in)
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Yes! I spotted the father's name earlier but I have my fingers in so many pies I forgot again! ;D
My Latin is about as good as my Dutch too.
These records are so incredible I don't know where to look next. You wouldn't believe the number of tabs I have open ;D
Leen, that link looks like a good bet, thank you :-* I will have a look at Francis and Catharine De Jonghe.
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Why can't I find them in the index? ::) how did you? 8)
I even looked under Timmerman
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In the Index of Elst ? I could not find them neither, until I noticed that mostly only one forename per child, was registered.
You should blame A. Baert, the secretary of the mayor, who drew up this index. (in 1889 see last page of the index) ;D
She is registered as Timmerman Anna http://www.rootschat.com/links/01elz/
She may be the right Catharina. It can be helpful to look at the names of the godparents of Catharina's childeren. Godparents were usually (not always) chosen according a regular pattern :
godparents 1th child : father’s father and mother’s mother
2th child : father’s mother and mother’s father
3th child : father’s brother and mother’s sister
and so on, brothers, sisters, brothers in law, aunts, ….
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That is useful to know Leen, thank you. I have noted a theme and wondered whether some of the godparents were actually grandparents.
there she is large as life and other 'Timmermans' fab!
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Is it common for the index to get it wrong sometimes? I am searching for a death. Joannes Baptiste Van Caenegam born, presumably in Deftinge, can't find a birth either. Married Francesca Van Den Berghe in 1768 (Deftinge), all the children born there. Francesca born 1742.
I found some JB's in the Deftinge death indexes but one 15 May 1827 I cannot see for the life of me! Might not even be the right man!
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anyone know what date this is please?
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just decided it means ditto to the line above ::)
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Goeienavond Parmesan,
Is it ditto ? Not a 5 ?
Sometimes there are errors in the index, wrong dates, wrong names, or not listed in the index, but not really often. The Joannes Baptiste (Johan Baptist / Jean Baptiste/ Jan Baptiste, ...), deceased 15 May 1827, is listed correctly in the index :). The cert (n° 21) is on image 433 of Deftinge ‘Geboorten, huwelijken, overlijden 1811-1830’, but he is not the one you’re looking for.
Your J.Bpt died at Deftinge 11 December 1816 (listed in the index as Van Caenegem Joannes). On his death cert he is listed as the husband of Joanna Beernaert (maybe you have already seen it). Francisca died at Deftinge on 29 August 1784, Joannes Baptista then married to Joanna Beernaert at Deftinge on 7 January 1786. Although Francesca’s name is not mentioned at the second marriage of Joannes Baptiste nor on his death cert, you may be sure that it really is the right J.Bpt, because his death date is listed (thankfully) on the marriage cert of a son of Francesca and J.Bpt.
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Goedenavond Leen :)
You are a marvel and no mistake, thank you once again :)
I had figured the long squiggle was 5 it was the squiggle after the 18 that I think means ditto above?
I have moved on to Masterlincks today. Was having trouble finding them, then discovered the various spellings! ::)
ooh my translator seems to be wrong - Goeienavond
It tiring work ;D
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Gives a new generation that death leen, thanks :)
and yes he did marry a Beernaert :)
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Yep another generation, Adrien/Adriaan/Adrianus Van Caenegem/ Caeneghem/ …. and Francoise/Francisca/Francine De Zutter / De Sutter/ Desuttere/ Sutter/ …...(lots of variants to ;D)
The second wife of Joannes Baptist, Joanna/Jeanne Bernaert / Beernaert / Beirnaert, was from Sint-Lievens-Esse (stated on the wedding cert)
The year on the index : sorry, I don’t know, 1805 ? Weird place to put a ditto sign.
And goedenavond is ok Parmesan, it’s both correct
Groetjes
Leen
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That says 05? Wow! Lol. No wonder I can't find half these records ;D
All those variants,yes! I'm learning on the job lol
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What year is this please? I have different years for the image and the tree ::)
I tried to find again in the index but failed ::) ::) ::) #losingthewilltolive
;D
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jaer derthiene / jaar dertien (year thirteen of the republic)
from 23 September 1804 up to and including 22 September 1805
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Cool, 1805 was one of my dates!
Do you know where I can find Horebeke records? I've looked at the other districts but you know what my eyesight is like ;)
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this time it’s not your eyesight Parmesan ;D, Horebeke used to be two separate municipalities Sint-Kornelis-Horebeke and Sint-Maria-Horebeke, merged somewhere in the 1970s as Horebeke, so you have to look at those two. (province East-Flanders, district Oudenaarde)
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What would I do without you? :-*
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Can you, with your super powers ;D find Maria Coleta Verbeken, died 5 Juny 1783 page of book, 183. Its Sint-Lievens-Houtem. The pages seem to go backwards/forwards and any which way!
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0517_109887_108684_DUT/inventarisnr/I1098871086843247/level/file/scan-index/127/foto/517_0900_000_00515_000_0_0152_r
Thanks.
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ah, finally found it on image 5, (I started backwards ::) ) well, at ‘Archiefbeschrijving’ they stated that it is an reversed register (register gekeerd). It’s on the correct page but the page is not where it should be, like you said a backwards and mixed up register. Her baptism is on image 7.
Their server was down yesterday (de server lag plat), I don’t know why but works ok now. There is a server maintenance planned during the night of the 5th on 6th February, which may cause problems then.
image 5, Maria Coleta Verbeke
The 5th of June 1783 at 8 o’clock in the morning, died in the age of 3 months, Maria Coleta Verbeke, daughter of Joannes Franciscus, burried the 6th of this month. Which I confirm.
(signed) J:De Bruyn, local pastor
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Marvellous leen, many thanks once again :)
Yes, server down yesterday, I was bereft! ;D
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can you decipher this place name please? Thanks
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Leeuwergem?
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You little beauty KGarrard :-*
No clue where a marriage was but looking at godparents on birth records saw that squiggle but couldn't make it out. That's where the marriage was! Excellent.
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I had a girlfriend in NL, with surname Leeuwarden - and it looked kind of similar!
A quick Google search found the name I posted.
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Fab! I am chasing this guy all over the place but still can't find a birth or death but have found two marriages, giving me no clues ;D
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Can anyone decipher this name please?
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I think its De Schauwer?
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I agree! ;D
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I'm learning ;D
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I've been away and having a break from research ;D
Are there any online twentieth century records/indices?
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what is this word please?
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"Partner" as in husband or wife.
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Great, thank you :)
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right I am confused! (not hard)
who has died here, Judocus or Maria Catharine? In the records under De Volegaer it has Judocus geb De Vos. (judocus is De Vos, Maria Catharine is De Volegaer). Under De Vos it has Judocus man De Vogelaer, Maria Catharine. Looks like Judocus to me but why would he be listed under wife's name?
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It is Judocus De Vos who has died (+ 19 November 1786 Balegem)
in the index, the death of married persons usually (not always) is listed twice, under their own name and under the name of the spouse
under De Vogelaer : Judocus born De Vos
under De Vos : Judocus husband of De Vogelaer Marie Catharine
The 20th November 1786 is buried Judocus De Vos, husband of Maria Catharina De Vogelaer.
Died yesterday (the previous day) at six o’clock in the morning, in the age of 57 years old.
A.J. Saligo, priest in Balegem
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Brilliant thanks leen. I posted on main board too and they say the same.
Can't find her death for love nor money!
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I've got a couple marrying twice - once in 1735 and again in 1745. That's not to do with French occupation is it? Weird
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no, at that time it can’t be the fault of Napoleon, probably two different couples
What are the details ?
There’s a Maria Catharina De Vogelaere, deceased at Scheldewindeke in 1803, 55 years old, widow of Josse De Vos. They have a daughter Florentina, born ca 1769 at Balegem. Could that be here ? She might be a little too young.
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oooooh ;D I'll check that one out leen, thank you. How on earth did you find that and where the heck is Scheldewindeke? I think you have magic powers! Maria Catharina is sometimes noted as Joanna Catharina!
Its a bit of a minefield with names isn't it. Today I was looking for Ronsse and didn't find many, then, I don't quite know how, I found a van Ronsse and bingo - hey ho! I've also got a Cucculure with a 'c' or a 'k' with or without De in front ::)
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the two marriages are here in Opbrakel, left hand page right at the bottom
Francis Vanronse and Judoca De Cucculure
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0517_109887_108684_DUT/inventarisnr/I109887108684942/level/file/scan-index/1/foto/517_0901_000_00089_000_0_0001
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Ah! The dreaded Tussenvoegsel! ;D
They're the "in between" words, such as "Van" "De" "Van Der" etc.
What's confusing is that, in Dutch, the tussenvoegsels are ignored when compiling alphabetical lists.
In Belgium they are not!
So, in Dutch Rembrandt van Rijn (the painter) is indexed under "R" for Rijn, van while in Belgium he would be indexed under "V" for Van Rijn!!
Confusing, isn't it?!
EDIT: I am referring to modern Dutch and Belgian!
The rules have changed over the years!! ;D
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Scheldewindeke is in East Flanders (Oost Vlanderen), next to Oosterzele.
You can find it on Google maps!
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very!!! and I've actually seen an index where the wotsit ;) is ignored in Belgium!
leen - Florentina could be right, I need to look again because my direct ancestor was born in 1773 so was only looking at births around that date - there being no parents names in the index - darn it!
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Having finally found the record in year 12 - damn the French invasion! It says she is a native of Semmerzake, at least that's what it looks like to me. Unfortunately marriage index stops at 1745 a bit too soon. Birth index shows a Maria Catharina and a Joanna Catharina 1736/1738, I have seen baptisms for her children using both names ::)
As you say 55 is a bit young she should be about 65 but I know UK records are notoriously way out with ages so who knows?
Semmerzake not that far from Balegem.
Further digging required ;D
leen - found Florentina baptism - 1770 in Balagem. You're good ;D
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Neen hoor, KGarrad, it’s just confusing because you are thinking to Dutch ;D , Belgium is not the Netherlands, when you have to search in a Belgian alphabetical sorted surnames index, don’t think ‘tussenvoegsel’, but think ‘voorvoegsel’ (prefix).
and right Parmesan, there are some indexes sorted or partly sorted on ‘wotsit’ ;D , (a scrap of the Dutch rule)
like you said, the name variations can make it complicated. With or without the prefixes : de, den, der, van, van de, van der, van den, or d’ho.., d’o..., dho..., do.., or as in your case : c as k (and vice versa), De Cucculure / De Keukeleire, …. etc. Lots of them were written phonetically by the priests and later on in the early days/years of the civil registry. Which could lead to the different spelling of the surname in one family. Since the only legal name is the one on the birth certificate, and a wrong / differently spelled name on a cert can only be changed through the court.
about Maria Catharina
I’m afraid I do not have magical powers (I wisch), it’s the magic of the internet ::), in this case the data-base of the genealogy site Prosapia (region Merelbeke, East Flanders).
Mind you, it is still not certain whether it is her, the death date of Judocus De Vos is listed as 1803, no further information, which again is not certain because there is a question mark after it. A lot of ? ? ? ?
http://www.prosapia.be/
click on : Raadpleging (top left)
click on : RAADPLEGING
click on : Start opzoekingen (start searches)
click on : p-index (persons index)
put in the box after Achternaam (last name) : de vogelaere and click on Zoek (search)
click on : 574
top left, scroll down to our De Vogelaere Maria Catharina
and finally click on Maria Catharina
The death cert of this Maria Catharina, (yep, Semmerzake it is)
Town hall of Scheldewindeke, municipality district of Ghent, the 6th vendemiaire year 12 (29/09/1803) at 3 o’clock in the afternoon, death cert of Marie Catharine De Vogelaere, native of Semmerzake, residing at Scheldewindeke, died today at 8 o’clock in the morning, 55 years old, widow of Josse De Vos deceased at Scheldewindeke, farmer. According the declaration made to us by Pierre Cordonnier, day labourer, 43 years old and Pierre Amand (Michiels), farmer, 40 years old, bove residing at Scheldewindeke, neighbors of the deceased. The first declared not being able to write the other has signed, after the reading was done to them. Drawn up by me Jean Baptiste De Gank, assistant in the function as public officer, after I had assured myself of the said death.
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Very informative thank you :-*
I was wondering about it too because I found the death index for Judocus - 20 Nov 1786 in Balegem. There again the information is only as good as the person offering it so maybe they thought he died in Scheldewindeke. (as shown on the Family Search record)
Thanks too for the link to that site - I am never going to be able to leave the house! ;D ;D ;D
Fabulous! Well its got the right husband, right child born in the right place. Where does Josephus De Smet come into it - would he be Florentina's husband? I see they have Ma Catharina birth as 1748 but as I said previously there are two on Semmerzake index, one for 1736 and one for 1738 neither of which fit for age at death but if the neighbours offered the info they could have been wrong?
Off to play more with the new site ;D
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does that site just cover those 12 regions?
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Josephus De Smet is Florentina’s husband, Ferdinandus (born De Vos) and Xaverius are her sons, Ferdinandus was legitimized at her wedding, the marriage is listed in the margin of the baptism cert of Ferdinand
the database Prosapia :
there are 14 municipalities, but they do not have all the data from these. After you have clicked on ‘Start opzoekingen’ and then on ‘indexen’, you can see what they have (click or scroll)
found a marriage in Semmerzake, June 27th 1769
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01erp/
the 27th of June, after the three announcements,
before me the undersigned and the witnesses,
contracted marriage Judocus de vos and maria
catharina de vogeleire, the witnesses : Joachim van der
eecken and joanna catharina van der meersgaute
C.J. Van den Dooren
pastor in Semmerzake
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Fabulous leen, thank you so much :-*
Any other useful sites you know of?
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I think I may have asked this before, if someone was married at City Hall, Nederbrakel in 1867 would that record be online somewhere?
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Can you tell me if Jan had more than one wife? Looks like it.
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That marriage record should be on Familysearch in the marriage register of Nederbrakel.
Yep, two wives, according to the death cert
+ 24 June 1819 Strijpen, 02:00 a.m.
Jean Baptiste De Smet, 70 years old, son of Adrian and of Marie Grijpdonk,
widower of Joanne Catharine Hanssens and widower in 2e marriage of Catharine Hulin.
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ha ha, just clocked that what I thought was a name is actually where it says second marriage ::)
Thanks leen. Will look on Family Search. :)
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I have two names Gillyne and Gisline, are they completely unrelated?
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Major probleemo! I have a mother who died before her daughter was born!
Anna Maria De Vos died S(Z)egelsem 15 June 1735 wife of Franciscus Troncq(choose your ending!)
daughter is Maria Theresia bap 15 Aug 1737.
There again I suppose she could have been baptised waaaay after she was born?
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Gillyne and Gisline are variations (or nicknames) of the first name Ghislaine (masculine form : Ghislain)
problem solved ;) the birth year of Maria Theresia is 1733, and you can choose which version of the surname you want ;D
Belgian State Archives - image 78 (register page 213) :Troncquou http://www.rootschat.com/links/01et9/
or image 53 (register page 104) : Tronco http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eta/
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I don't believe it leen! My copy of the image is labelled 1733 but the death record says she is 40 so on my Anc tree I have her birth as 1737 as she died 1777. There aren't enough ::) ::) ::) ::)
Any chance of deciphering mother's name on this one? please :) (here we have Van Eck, Eck, Heck and Hecke ::) )
I don't know why they can't write legibly either ;D
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for the first time I can't find deaths of the two people who got married and had children in Balegem :(
One is Judoca Van Ecke and the other is Joanne indecipherable from the above image - thought I may find her name under Van Ecke in the death index.
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Anna Van Ecke, born the 29th September, bapt. the 30th September, her mother’s name on the cert is Joanne Verhaeghen. The ‘letter / sign’ before the ‘h’ is an abbreviation for ‘ver’ (I think).
Name variants ;D : Verhaegen, Verhagen, Vanderhaeghen, Vanderhaege, Vanderhaghe, …
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Once again ;) many thanks. My best guess was Schouppe ::)
:-*
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what does nata cod(?) mean? Born ???
thanks :)
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is there a website that would tell you where names are most commonly found in Belgium?
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it may be eod , an abbreviation of eodem (the same), nata eodem die, born the same day
Belgian surnames
http://www.familienaam.be/ type the name (case sensitive!) on ZOEK JE FAMILIENAAM (bottom left) and enter
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Amazing leen, thank you so much. :)
I wouldn't doing half as well with your help :-*
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Detie or Destie - is this a name? Well it must be its in the index, any variations?
Strange one in Segelsem. Two Joannes Baptiste De Cubbers born to same parents (Livinus and Jacoba De(s)tie. One bap 1715 the other 1718 but nothing to correlate in the death index. Neither can I find mother or father. Any ideas?
There is A Judoca DeTirie (?) but was married to Franciscus De Vos and I checked she was having babies the same time as my Judoca ;D
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Other variants that I saw in the records were Dethie, Dutie and Duthy.
Not all deaths are recorded I think, there are only 8 deaths registered in 1715, 7 in 1716, 9 in 1717 and 7 in 1718, which is quite low. It is likely that the first Joannes Bpt died before 26/07/1718, and the 2th died on 26/11/1784 in Zegelsem. I can’t find a death for Judoca Detie neither, there’s a death for a Livinus De Ceubber + 20/02/1724 Zegelsem (image 151), but whether it is the right Livinus is not certain because only his name is mentioned (and that he has received the holly sacraments ::)).
No marriage in Zegelsem or in the surrounding communes. There is a marriage for a Judoca Detie with a Joannes Morre x 17/01/1704 Zegelsem. According the baptism of this couple their first (and only) child, is the mother Maria Detie, not Judoca. It is confusing, there is only one family Detie in Zegelsem and the mother is a Decubber too.
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Confusing? tell me about it ;D
Yep I have started Googling the map and looking at surrounding districts, then searching them, with no luck so far.
I've also had a couple of hints on Anc which is useful but I'm careful to check for myself and sometimes I can't find any reason why they give a person a pair of parents, so they are getting shelved until I've finished finding all the records I know are correct. That should be in about 10 years time ;D
Like Arnie, I'll be back! ;D
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are there any other derivatives of Matthys apart from Mathys? Thanks :)
Also please can you translate mother's name? I have Maria De Gayore but I'm sure its not ;D
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given name : Mat(t)heus, Mat(t)hijs, Mat(t)hias, Mat(t)hieu, Mahieu, Mahu, …
or family name : Mat(t)hijs, Mat(t)hijs(s)e(n), Mat(t)his, Mat(t)heys, Mat(t)heeuws, …
I think that Maria De Kukelure her mother’s name is Maria De Haijere (name variants : De Haeijer(e), D’Ha(e)ijer(e), (ij or y ), …
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Thanks again leen :)
Some of the handwriting in the parish registers is beautiful - and legible. Some is not ::) ;D
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Can you have a look for me please? Maria Anna Machtelinx 12 Mei 1671 page 173. Father Lucianus, mother Judoca Verstichelen.
I can't even see a page 173 in that record set and neither can I see 12 Mei.
Thanks.
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0517_109887_108684_DUT/inventarisnr/I109887108684493/level/file/scan-index/-19/foto/517_0900_000_00278_000_0_0095
Edit: hmmm just noticed something odd. The parents got married in 1695 so maybe the birth year should have been 1691 not 71. I can't check because 1691 is not available to view.
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She’s not in the register that’s for sure. It must be an incorrect date : parents married in 1695 and siblings born between 1695-1717.
According the index Marie Anna’s baptism should be on page 173, when you look in the index (period 1695-1717) there’s a baptism January 1701 that should be on page 172 and a baptism February 1702 that should be on page 175, so Maria Anna could be born in 1701, maybe on 12/05/1701 page 173 instead of 12/05/1671. Wrong year, correct page ?
Like you said, you can’t check it, the records are not online. Maybe they are not digitized yet (the ‘Parish records’ are digitized by the Belgian State Archives from the original records), but I’m afraid they are lost or so, since they neither available on the State Archives, nor listed in the Archives inventory nor filmed by Familysearch.
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Thanks leen. I thought maybe not on there YET as they say the site is incomplete?
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leen, can you make out parents names on this baptism please? Thank you.
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scrap that ;D
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oops
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goedemorgen :)
can you translate the names on these two images please. For the first one I got Van der Houtem?
Second one, something Vandebeken and something else ;D
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Goeienavond Parmesan,
I’m not sure about the ‘somethings’ ;D
first : Catharina Van den or der Houten
second : Andreas Van der Beken and Susanna De Cloeter or Clooter
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Thank you leen :) those H's look like an S or lower case g - how confusing ;D
would you look at the names in post #165? the next post says 'scrap that' but that was for post #166 which I sussed the answer to after I'd posted ::)
Thanks :-*
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Ah, I see, or not, sorry, do you mean the baptism of Adriaan ? If so, his parents are Willem De Winne and Tanneke (= Anna) Boterberch
the name of his godfather is puntje, puntje, puntje (= dot, dot, dot, something like something ;D ) it could be : Adr, maybe an abbreviation voor Adriaan/Adrianus, and then the letters d e c o and on the next line : v o s, but that doesn’t make any sense ::). His godmother is Catelyne (= Catharina) De Cock.
old nicknames http://www.familiegeschiedenis.be/toolsenhulp/oude-vleivormen
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Yes sorry, post #167 ::) ::) ::) - if I had a brain I'd be dangerous ;D
Many thanks leen, as ever you have been marvellous. :-*
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just noticed - our avatars are quite similar :)
A question, are any censuses online? I found a Family Search link but it won't load for me :(
https://familysearch.org/image/viewer#uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/collection/2026976/waypoints
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Unfortunately there are only a few transcriptions of censuses / vokstellingen online, certainly not the originals, and the information on it is quite limited. They are not on FamilySearch. (The link on FamilySearch doesn’t work)
For your region there is one of Balegem year 1796.
database of the Flemish Family History association http://www.ariadnedatabank.be/~ariadne/ariadne/ari.php?INFILE=VTBALEGE&descr=b9L
type the name, or a part, in the box and click on ‘zoek op’ or enter
a few links to other census transcriptions and a lot of links to many other sources on the portal site Geneaknowhow
http://www.geneaknowhow.net/index.html
click on the map next to ‘Digital resources Netherlands and Belgium’
or on the map before ‘Digitale Bronbewerking Nederland en België’ (some of the links are not on the English version)
and click on ‘Internet’ below Oost-Vlaanderen (or another province/county)
yep, look-alike avatars ;D
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Excellent leen, thank you. I found a couple of people on the census :)
lots more there to look through too. :)
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Hello again ;D
Would Vander Haegen and Verhaegen be the same name? Can you decipher mother and witness names here please?
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Yes it is possible, Verha(e)g(h)e(n), Vanderha(e)(gh)e(n), …
Is gedoopt Joanna fa Judoci van der
haegen en elisabet swalen, peters
Arent van der moere en Joanna cueterix
Is baptised Joanna daughter of Judocus van der
haegen and elisabet swalen, godparents
Arent van der moere and Joanna cueterix.
Swalen, De Waele, Vandewaele, ...
Cueterix, Ceuterix, Ceuterickx, Keuterick, …
Vandermoere(n), Vanmoere(n), …
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Fabulous, thank you :-*