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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: heatherrr on Thursday 08 January 15 13:32 GMT (UK)
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Not sure if I've posted in the right section.
Just need a bit of help understanding this. The marriage was in Airdrie.
After their names, what does the 'both H.W.' mean? Some other couples on the page have the same, and some have 'both A.G.'.
I also don't understand the money sections and there are no column headers at the top of the page.
Thanks
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Sorry, I can't help just flagging this up to see if anyone can shed some light on these abbreviations :)
Jen
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Jen, could you e-mail me the whole page please?
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Forfarian, not one of mine I posted as someone on a FB group has posted the same question about this parish but for the year 1851 and I was curious as I can't work out what it means which is very annoying...
Jen
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I wondered if it might have been the minister who married them, but the minister of New Monkland in 1851 was Robert Archibald so that's not it.
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There's a RC marriage listed for the Murray/Ceriggen pairing but not the Livingstone/Fairlie couple so I thought perhaps not relating to religion.
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I did wonder whether they may have been occupations, Handloom Weaver & AG (Agricultural something)? but found it strange there was no full stop between 'AG' as there was with 'H. W.' so that doesn't work either.
Annie
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Annie,
That's what I thought initially but when I checked their occupations it didn't fit - Isabella Fairlie is down as a spinner in the 1851 census...but listed as AG in the record. Not sure if the full stops mean anything as the two snips are from 1850 and 1851...
Jen
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Jen,
Even if the full stops weren't significant on either the 'A' (Agricultural) would normally be followed by 'L' (Labourer) but of course there may have been others re 'Ag' (the norm) rather than capitalised 'AG' which I don't think I've come across yet?
It's certainly a bit of a mind boggler.
Annie
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OK I have a copy of the page - I've never seen anything like it before.
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I though the original question related to Airdrie, but this page mentions Aberdeen.
If one is Airdrie and the other is Aberdeen, then whatever it is, it's not related to the local parish.
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I've seen something like this before - a few years back. If you note the money is the listed as a collection/* and often, when banns were read, surety or money for the poor was expected of the couple of whoever stood surety. Not sure of the abbreviations - could it be the person standing surety, who might also have been a member of the Kirk sessions?
Just a suggestion though as it's more a recollection of an old posting on here and I may be wrong.
Gadget
add /* and money to Poor House at top of page.
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Jen, could you e-mail me the whole page please?
- you should now have a copy :)
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Forfarian...
"If one is Airdrie and the other is Aberdeen, then whatever it is, it's not related to the local parish"
Lend me your specs please as I can't see Aberdeen (the image is a bit fuzzy to me) but I think I see Manchester? next to the first '6 6' about half way down the page :-\
I think the initials HW & AG could be shortened versions of place names but where if so ???
Annie
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Missed a couple of posts, had typed my last one, must have forgot to press send, went away & came back to it still waiting to be posted.
Missed yours Gadget, it's another thought!
Strangest marriages I've ever seen, 1st I've seen the likes of this for the era although great for experience in seeing different docs. & trying to solve puzzles ;)
Annie
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I've seen dozens of New Monkland marriages, all of them just about as uninformative as these, but not with the 'AG' or 'HW' or any variant.
I can see now that Aberdeen is a different style of record.
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Sometimes when you see docs. you're not accustomed with it takes a while to check through things & weigh up what's written/how it's written in context etc.
I now don't believe the initials are to do with occs. or place names but what stands out is the fact they all (apart from one couple) have 'both' written prior to the initials (presumably both of that parish) as only one person has 'in this parish' written which is the one who's husband looks to be from Manchester so I'm defeated on possibilities on this.
Annie
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I now don't believe the initials are to do with occs. or place names but what stands out is the fact they all (apart from one couple) have 'both' written prior to the initials (presumably both of that parish) as only one person has 'in this parish' written which is the one who's husband looks to be from Manchester so I'm defeated on possibilities on this.
I agree, but I am no nearer to working out what they do mean!
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Forfarian,
This is a difficult one but I'm leaning towards what Gadgets' thoughts were to do with £.
Do you think the 'G' could mean Gratuity although I'm still struggling with the 'H W & A'?
Annie
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I'm leaning towards what Gadgets' thoughts were to do with £.
I don't think I doubt that the money paid went into the poors fund. I'm not sure, however, why some couples paid more than others, but not random amounts that were donations - almost all paid 3s 6d or 6s 6d or 19s 6d. And both the couples who paid 19s 6d involved one person from a parish in a different county. Yet James Wilson from Manchester, in a different country, paid only 6s 6d.
Do you think the 'G' could mean Gratuity
No, I don't think so.
I think it's either "HW" or "AG", and one or two "UC". But no idea what they mean.
I wonder if it would be worth dropping a line to the local studies librarian in Airdrie to see if he might know?
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This is indeed a difficult one but I too am going with gadget's thoughts of ££
Couples or their cautioners/sponsors were required to pay a security to prove they were serious about getting married. Also, the Banns were usually called on 3 consecutive Sundays at the Church Service. However on payment of a fee the Banns could be called 3 times on the same Sunday and the couple married that day.
This makes me think that part of the document is a record of these payments. Not certain about the initials but perhaps they belong to the person taking the payment - Church Elder or Parish Clerk??
Just another thought to add into the mix.
Dorrie
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"I wonder if it would be worth dropping a line to the local studies librarian in Airdrie to see if he might know?"
No harm in trying as it may shed some light & even if no further forward it will have been explored!
Another thought, could the differences in amounts be to do with their earnings/combined earnings?
Annie
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The other thing which is puzzling, couples named on same dates with the different initials i.e. not the same person (if the initials are related to a person), why the differences on same dates?
Annie
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Notice the heading that says “collected October 1851”
There are money amounts next to dates and things other than marriages. Eg Sacrament Fast.
Is this the parish income accounts, money collected at services, plus money from the couples marrying
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Notice the heading that says “collected October 1851”
There are money amounts next to dates and things other than marriages. Eg Sacrament Fast.
Is this the parish income accounts, money collected at services, plus money from the couples marrying
Yes, it is exactly that. Unfortunately this is the only record you ever get of pre-1854 marriages in the parish of New Monkland - just the record of who paid how much to the poors fund for having their banns proclaimed.
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I've just looked at the page that the original Ardrie snip was from rather than the one that Jennywren put up.
There is another set of initials on that - see below. Is it Mr C ??
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It's definitely Mr C as there's a Morrison above and the M is formed in the same way.
Add - Will try and look at adjacent pages tomorrow o se if there are any other clues to the initials. It's a bit late now.
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The Accounts look to be in the same hand but with the different names/initials, is it possible the monies were given over prior to the events i.e. whoever took the monies their initials would have been on the envelope along with the details of the couples i.e. prior to the dates of marrying hence the differing initials?
I think I'd rather do a jigsaw of a tin of beans right now ;D
Annie
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Yes, I have the whole page and I wondered about that.
And in particular why it's 'Mr C' instead of a pair of initials.
Noting that the surname involved is Irish, I speculated that 'Mr C' might be 'Monsignor C....' but at the dead of last night I couldn't think of an easy way to check the name of the RC clergyman in Airdrie in 1850/1851.
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Noting that the surname involved is Irish, I speculated that 'Mr C' might be 'Monsignor C....' but at the dead of last night I couldn't think of an easy way to check the name of the RC clergyman in Airdrie in 1850/1851.
Forfarian,
Do you have a RC baptism for that period to check who the clergy was?
Annie
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No, I don't.
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I think the priest at the time was a Father Duncan McNab. I'm just reading about St Margaret's...
"Father McNab arrived in Airdrie in 1848, and for the next nineteen years was the priest-in- charge of St. Margaret’s. Described as a “somewhat dour Highlander”, he seems to have made little effort to ingratiate himself with his congregation, although it is admitted that he worked with enormous energy on their behalf. Cholera was raging in the town when he came, and with Father Buckley, much of his time was taken up with doing the rounds of the homes of the victims. Jeremiah Buckley was the only curate of the ten who served the parish in those nineteen years to stay for any length of time."
https://www.stmargaretsairdrie.org.uk/foundations
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So 'Mr C' isn't either the RC clergyman or the Church of Scotland minister.
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Interesting that the page before doesn't have the first letter - just the W or G
Gadget
Added -were the churches referred to as West and Graham Street and Calderbank :-\
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I think 'Mr C' could be the minister in Clarkston a Mr John Campbell. I've had a read through of the New Statistical Accounts for New Monkland and it appears that there was the parish church, two chapels of ease and a chapel in Clarkston all associated with the Established Church. John Slaven has 'Mr C' next to his name and he is living in Clarkston in 1851...my head's nipping!
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Interesting that the page before doesn't have the first letter - just the W or G
Gadget
Added -were the churches referred to as West and Graham Street and Calderbank :-\
Yes - clearly just the second letter - think it must be a ref to the particular churches - locations or whatever. See below.
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Gadget, after 1834 while priests and ministers not of the established church were allowed to conduct legal marriage ceremonies did the banns still need to be read out in the Kirk?
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Yes until 1855
Nonconformists had their own congregations and kept their own records. They could go to church wherever they wished and were not confined to parish boundaries. However, before 1834, nonconformist ministers were not authorized to perform marriages as clergyman; after 1834 they could perform marriages if the banns had first been read in the parish church. Total authority was granted in 1855.In the context of Scots Law as it applied until 1939 this only in practice affected the mode of marriage as until then any declaration of marriage in front of witnesses was valid although many might have failed to be recorded.
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Scotland_Church_Records
I knew I'd seen it somewhere.
Gadget
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And, interestingly, no initials before 1834
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So, in 1851 the Established Church in New Monkland is probably collecting funds from the West Chapel, the Parish Church and the Chapel in Clarkston (according to the Fasti they lost the High Chapel to the Free Kirk in 1843 and the East Chapel in 1851 due to coalworkings which undermined the building). I've scanned all the banns and where it say 'both' it's referring to both persons belonging to the parish...the only entries where the word 'both' does not appear is when one of the party is from outside the parish. In all likelihood the initials identify where the banns were read out. Does that sound about right?
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I wasn't sure of the churches' names but as soon as I saw the single letters on the previous pages, I was sure it was referring to the churches - see:
Interesting that the page before doesn't have the first letter - just the W or G
Gadget
Added -were the churches referred to as West and Graham Street and Calderbank :-\
Yes - clearly just the second letter - think it must be a ref to the particular churches - locations or whatever.
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Thanks Gadget :)
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Nothing beats determination, brilliant outcome girls!!!
Hope you both feel proud in your abilities to find the meanings of the initials, great work & so helpful for others who may have the same query!
One of the most interesting posers I've seen with a 'Scottish' record but equally interesting to learn the answer ;)
Annie