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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: craven481 on Wednesday 14 January 15 15:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm wondering if anyone can decipher the town name on the 1851 census [damaged] for James Graham age 59, joiner, of 2 Croft Street, Manchester - London Road, St Andrews District. The location might help me to find his baptism. I can read the Kirk part but not the ending!
Attached is a clip from that census.
Ken
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The only places I could find were Kirklinton, Kirkoswald and Kirkbride and it doesn't look like any of these
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Hi,
It must be St Lawrence, Kirkland.
Victor
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My thoughts were Kirkland ( near Penrith) or an abbreviation of Kirkoswald.
Jen :)
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Is he around in later censuses?
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I read it as kirkusel, I can see his Lancastrian wife pronouncing kirkoswald a bit like that.
Mike
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Could be abbreviated to something like Kirk on Solway ???
Sandra
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I read it as kirkusel, I can see his Lancastrian wife pronouncing kirkoswald a bit like that.
Mike
I wondered about that but with his own pronunciation in mind, rather than his wife's. I checked on a dialect site and it is as I thought - Kirkoswald locally is K'kOswald with emphasis on the second syllable. But a Lancashire version.....maybe!
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Even if the OP knew exactly where he was born there are still a lot of possibllities.
Mike
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There are two baptisms around the right date at Kirk Andrews Upon Esk
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I am off to McDonalds before they take the breakfast menu off or I would do it myself. Try as many sites as you can.... ancestry.com, family search.org and findmypast and see how they have transcribed it as.
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No clue on the marriage document - presuming it is James Graham (bachelor of the Parish and town of Manchester) who married Mary McMillan 9 February 1823 Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George.
Transcription given as Kirkwell on the 1851census - ancestry.
Sandra
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Just looked at the original message and immediately thought of Kirkandrews on Esk, mainly because the parish is right in the heartland of the Graham family. Netherby Hall, the seat of the head of the Graham clan is only a few hundred yards from Kirkandrews church.
More remotely, there is Kirkandrews on Eden but although a parish, the church was ruinous two hundred years ago and Graham's are thinner on the ground. Beaumont took over as the parish church.
Related fact: until telephone directories became selective about ten years ago, Smith was the commonest name in all the English volumes except Cumbria and North Lancs where Graham's outnumbered Smiths two to one.
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Hi All
Many thanks for all the prompt suggestions.
I can see the possibility that Kirkoswald could sound something like Kirkusal, as some miles north of Manchester lies the Lancashire town of Oswaldtwistle which locals pronounce something like ozzel-twissel - no 'd' sound at all.
Family Search have no James Grahams christened at Kirkoswald about the time I'm searching, and given that the surname Graham was more popular than Smith [see above], I think I'm not going to get any further back until I find some other evidence.
Thanks again to all.
Ken
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Does this help:
From Kirkandrews on Esk Parish Registers (transcript)
19 June 1791. James son of James and Ann Graham (late Bell) of Phillipstown, Baptised.
The following year there is another James Robert George Graham baptised, the son of Sir James Graham of Netherby but I cannot imagine him ending up as a joiner in Manchester.
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clearly
Thanks - the date is about right so I'll keep a note of that one as a possibility and hope that somehow I locate James's siblings and they may link in with the same parish.
Cheers
Ken
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Locally, Kirkoswald is pronounced something like K'kozzle.
Kirkusel would seem to be good attempt at spelling an unfamiliar name.
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Graham came originally from Scotland, they were well known Border Reivers, so more likely to be Kirkandrews on Esk. Kirkoswald is known locally as KO.
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Did nothing come of the idea of looking to see what it was on other censuses? That's helped me a few times when I really couldn't decipher a placename.
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The 1851 census for James Graham in Manchester on Family Search doesn't seem to have a transcript, just an index, so no clues there. Find My Past has a transcript but simply says Cumberland for place of birth.
It looks like James died in 1859 and was buried in Ardwick Cemetery, Manchester, so didn't make it to the 1861cenus and of course the 1841 only says not born in this county ie Lancashire.
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Ah, that's a pity. Sorry. Seemed like a possible idea...
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Kirkoswald in Cumbria is pronounced locally as Kirkussel as others have mentioned below.
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Thanks. It looks like Kirkoswald is where our James came from then.
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Have you tried Kirkland near Ennerdale in West Cumberland, I believe they shared Lamplugh church, St Michaels
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Have you tried Kirkland near Ennerdale in West Cumberland, I believe they shared Lamplugh church, St Michaels
Why would anyone write Kirkland as Kirkusel though?
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I see the end of the word as nd not el
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I am a bit late to this post, but have you considered James Graham born in Kirklinton 18 August 1793 parents Francis and Ann?