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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: peb205 on Wednesday 14 January 15 17:34 GMT (UK)
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How can I find William PENALUNA's mothers maiden name without paying for birth or marriage cert?
He was born Helston in 1846 son of John and Ann
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Hi,
You could look for a marriage using the Cornwall OPC:
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/index.htm
or FamilySearch.org
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1769414
Maiden name of the mother not usually shown on baptism registers.
You could also try FreeBMD:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
Nanny Jan
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Deleted by STG
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Cornwall OPC is showing a marriage in 1831 in Helston.
I'll leave you the fun of looking it up yourself!! ;D ;D ;D
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Thankyou
I can't decide which is more likely out of the marriages in 1831 and 1838?
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It is possible that the marriage tooke place in another part of Cornwall; the birth certificate seems the way to go.
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Lots of questions:
- How do you know his parents are John and Ann?
- Have you got William on the 1851 or 1861 census with John and Ann?
- If so:
- where are they living (so that we can find them too)
- how old are John and Ann, or are there older siblings, and I so where were they said to have been born, who might give a clue as to which marriage date is more likely?
- what's John's occupation?
- Have you found baptisms for the other children with the same parents/occupation?
STG
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The William Penaluna I can see has parents John 1816, copper miner b Wendron, and Elizabeth 1817 b Wendron. The two eldest children are called Elizabeth 1839, and John 1844, William is the next one.
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There's a marriage 1836, Falmouth to Elizabeth Lemin. About 12 miles between Falmouth and Helston - easily walkable. (findmypast for the information)
whoops! looking for a William there, should be John - try again.
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1851
Ho107/1914 67 24 crellow in stythians
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You appear to be following two different William's. You start off saying he was born in Helston in 1846 which would be this birth
Births Mar 1846
PENALUNA William Helston 9 150
but then you give the 1851 census reference that relates to this birth
Births Jun 1849
PENELUNA William James Redruth 9 268
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Thank you for spotting this. Maybe I have the wrong census info. Do you have the correct info please?
My William is father of urias PENALUNA bap 9/2/1882 carnmenellis which is very close to stithians where I believe my William was born. I am not sure about his birth year
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In 1891 census he was 42
In 1881 was 31
& 1871 was 21
1861 was 11
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Sorry must be the Redruth 1849 birth
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Working back from 1891 (NB you may have identified a different census record in 1881)
1891 census
Class: RG12/1848/87 p 13
William 42 (1849) Head born Illogan Wendron
Elizabeth 40 (1851) Wife born Illogan Wendron
Urias (Uriah) 9 (1882) son born Illogan Wendron
And other children
1881 census
Class: RG11/2322/7 p 8
William 35 (1846) Head born Wendron
Elizabeth 30 (1851) Wife born Wendron
And children
1871 census
Class: RG10/2301/28 p13
William 21 (1850) boarder born Wendron
Boarding with the Treloar family his future inlaws and Elizabeth their daughter, his future wife
Edit: See reply 17. It is now clear the 1891, 1881 and 1871 family above is different from the 1861, 1851 and 1841 family below
1861 census
Class: RG 9/1581/115 p 11
John Penaluna 56
An Penaluna 50
John Penaluna 17
William Penaluna 11
John born Sithney, Ann born Helston, John jnr and willaim born Stithians
1851 Census
Class: HO107/1914/67 p 24
John Penaluna 40
Ann Penaluna 41
Mary Ann Penaluna 19
Jane Penaluna 12
Susan Penaluna 10
John Penaluna 7
William Penaluna 1
This is Mary Ann’s baptism so confirms John and Ann married before 1832
Mary Anne Peneluna bpt 7 Aug 1831 Sithney Cornwall
daughter of John and Anne Peneluna
The baptism of William
William James Penluna bp 23 Jul 1849 St. Stithians, Cornwall
son of John & Ann Penluna
(NB mother’s maiden name not given)
So this looks to be the wedding and the bride is Ann Wedlock and they marry in her home town
JOHN PENALUNA m 5 Apr 1831 Helston, Ann WEDLOCK
NB: Have not found the family in 1841
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1841 Census St Stithians Cornwall
HO107/139/3/64 p 9
John Venalerma 30
Ann Venalerma 30
Mary Venalerma 10
Elizabeth Venalerma 2 *
Susan Venalerma 3 Mo
Its a bad transcription of the name but if you look at the original you can make out Paneluna (Penaluna)
Living in the parish of St Stithians
* Don't know why Elizabeth becomes Jane 10 years later perhaps she is Elizabeth Jane ie
Births Dec 1838
PENELUNA Elizabeth Jane Redruth 9 243
A word of warning: all that I have found is based on your statement that your William is the son of John and Ann and that he married Elizabeth Treloar. Myself I would still like to see the marriage certificate of William and Elizabeth as I see several people have conflicting information on which Paneluna's are related to which
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Wow thanks ever so much
I'm amazed you found all that so quickly
Best wishes
Paul
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And the story continues .......
As I mentioned in reply #15 “Myself I would still like to see the marriage certificate of William and Elizabeth” as something did not feel right and it seems it is not
So I started by looking for the 1871 census of John and Ann. Now John appears to die in 1870
Deaths Dec 1870
Penaluna John 62 Helston 5c 143
But there is the following 1871 census for Ann
RG10/2324/52 p 42
William Penaluna 21
Chendra Penaluna 21
John Penaluna 7 Months
Ann Penaluna 60
So it appears in 1871 that William is already married and is still living with his mother.
There is a marriage reference for the marriage that by the names William James confirms it as john and Ann’s son William (William’s birth place is correctly given as Stithians, and baby John’s as Camborne)
Marriages Jun 1870
PENALUNA William James Redruth 5c 393
RABLING Clara Ann Redruth5c 393
Now Clara Ann dies in 1878
Deaths Jun 1878
PENALUNA Clarinda Ann 30 Redruth 5c 194
Now as a William Paneluna marries an Elizabeth Treloar in 1872
Marriages Mar 1872
PENNALUNE William Helston 5c 303
TRELOAR Elizabeth Helston 5c 303
It would appear that this is a different William Paneluna to the one that is the son of John and Ann
William son of John and Ann appears on the 1881 census as follows
RG11/2334/95 p 20
William Penaluna 31
Elizabeth Penaluna 29
John Penaluna 11
William Penaluna 8
Ernest Penaluna
Francis Penaluna 3
Again William’s birth place is given as Stithians
Again on the 1891 census
RG12/1850/103 p 6
William Penaluna 45
Eliza Penaluna 46
John Penaluna 19
William Penaluna 16
Francis Penaluna 13
Ernest Penaluna 10
Ada Penaluna 8
Arthur Penaluna 6
Charles Penaluna 3
NB I am not sure the Elizabeth in 1881 and the Eliza in 1891 are the same person
A possible marriage for the 1881 Elizabeth
Marriages Dec 1878
CORNISH Elizabeth Ann Redruth 5c 374
PENALUNA William Redruth 5c 374
A possible death for the 1881 Elizabeth
Deaths Mar 1888
PENALUNA Elizabeth Ann 36 Redruth 5c 180
This is a possible marriage for the 1891 Eliza
Marriages Jun 1888
Hicks Eliza Redruth 5c 367
Penaluna William James Redruth 5c 367
Conclusion
The William that marries Elizabeth Treloar is not the son of John and Ann so where did you get the information that your William was the son of John and Ann from ? Do you have any other proof for it ?
The Wiliam who was the son of John and Ann appears to have married at least three times none of them to Elizabeth Treloar and he was not the father of Urias (Uriah)
To find out who the parents of the William who is the father of Uriah, and who married Elizabeth Treloar is you will need to buy the marriage certificate. It is likely to be John and Elizabeth or Urias and Jane it is not John and Ann
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Just to throw another one into the mix!
1861 census
Piece 1570, Folio 54 Page 12
has a William age 11 son of Urias (widower) all family born Wendron
same family in 1851
Piece 1912, Folio 312, Page 30
William age 1 parents Urias and Jane.
William also has older brother called Urias.
Given all the Uriases here, I think it's a strong contender
But the only way to prove it is get a copy of marriage cert of William and Elizabeth Treloar.
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FreeREG has a marriage:
21 Feb 1872
Carnmenillis, Cornwall
William Penaluna, 22, bachelor, Carnmenillis, miner, s/o Urias Penaluna, miner
and
Elizabeth Treolar, 21, spinster, Carnmenillis, d/o John Treolar, miner
Jus' sayin'
STG
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FreeREG has a marriage:
21 Feb 1872
Carnmenillis, Cornwall
William Penaluna, 22, bachelor, Carnmenillis, miner, s/o Urias Penaluna, miner
and
Elizabeth Treolar, 21, spinster, Carnmenillis, d/o John Treolar, miner
Jus' sayin'
STG
Well spotted I had not looked on there as thought it was too late (1872) to be included. So that has saved Paul £9.25 :)
(NB Urias marries two women called Jane, the first in 1841 and the second in 1861)
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So Urias it is - never ignore a gut feeling!
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So Urias it is - never ignore a gut feeling!
Bad advice seeing as we were told originally that William's parents were John and Ann - only they weren't
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I mean't my gut feeling. Always look further into unusual names. Doing that on another thread at the moment
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I assumed that William was son of John and Ann as his son urias was also born in stithians.
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I assumed that William was son of John and Ann as his son urias was also born in stithians.
Oh well it is a useful lesson don't assume anything, and if you do let people know its only an assumption. I had asked where you got the information from but you never answered, if you had we might have got to the answer sooner.
Still its all ended well and we have unravelled the family for you so that's good :)
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The marriage that smalltowngirl found means William's father was definitely called Urias.
There seem to be three Williams born within a few years of each other in the smae part of Cornwall. If you piece the families that people have found for you on this thread together you will probably find they're all related when you get back two or three more generations.
1851 census in Grigwartha Wendron Cornwall
Urias Panaluna Head 34
Jane Panaluna Wife 31
Urias Panaluna Son 5
Susan Panaluna Daughter 3
William Panaluna Son 1
all born in Wendron
From FreeBMD Marriage Q3 1841 Urias Penaluna and the only possible bride called Jane is Jane Wren. One of the other brides with same reference is Ann Wren - could be Jane's sister. Free reg has Jane as Jane Uren. Urias's father is also called Urias and Jane's father is called Martin. As they married after 1841 census, you should probably be able to find them as single people hopefully living with parents, so you would be able to find more of the family.
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Thankyou ever so much
Best wishes
Paul
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Just another interesting thing. Davidft found that Urias (Williams father) had married two Janes. Freebmd has marriage on 23 Nov 1861 of Urias (widower) to Jane Hosken widow. His father is Urias of course and here father is Solomon Treloar, one of the witnesses is Sampson Treloar. So could be related to William's wife Elizabeth Treloar.
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I am struggling to find urias penaluna and Jane uren in the 1841 census please help.
The marriage that smalltowngirl found means William's father was definitely called Urias.
There seem to be three Williams born within a few years of each other in the smae part of Cornwall. If you piece the families that people have found for you on this thread together you will probably find they're all related when you get back two or three more generations.
1851 census in Grigwartha Wendron Cornwall
Urias Panaluna Head 34
Jane Panaluna Wife 31
Urias Panaluna Son 5
Susan Panaluna Daughter 3
William Panaluna Son 1
all born in Wendron
From FreeBMD Marriage Q3 1841 Urias Penaluna and the only possible bride called Jane is Jane Wren. One of the other brides with same reference is Ann Wren - could be Jane's sister. Free reg has Jane as Jane Uren. Urias's father is also called Urias and Jane's father is called Martin. As they married after 1841 census, you should probably be able to find them as single people hopefully living with parents, so you would be able to find more of the family.
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Urias is here
Piece number 139, Book 3, Folio 43, page 1
He is with Urias age 60, Ann age 50 (inferred parents) and several family members of around his own age (inferred siblings). 1841 doesn't give relationships and rounds adult ages. In same household is Elizabeth Penaluna age 50 and below her two family members age 20 and 15. Guessing from the order listed and ages that Elizabeth might be sister / sister in law of Urias snr and the two below her in the list are her children.
And Jane is here
Piece 139, Book 6, Folio 44, Page 20
Lots of Jane Urens in Cornwall, but this is only one of comparable age to Jane in 1851, in right district with father Martin.
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FindMyPast has baptism transcription of Urias Penaluna 29 May 1816 at Wendron parents Urias and Ann.
Also marriage transcription of Urias and Ann Johns 26 Nov 1804 at Wendron.
There is a death registration of a Urias in 1844, and deaths of two Anns in the period between 1841 and 1851 censuses. Can't find either in 1851, so it looks like both Urias jnr's parents died before 1851, so not possible to get more accurate year and place of birth for either.
There is a baptism at Wendron on 21 July 1777 for a Urias Penaluna parents Alexander and Mary, which seems a bit early to match with the 1841 census even allowing for rounding of Urias's age. But I think both ages may be suspect as otherwise Ann would have married very young.
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Ancestry has several baptisms of children to Urias and Ann, some match those on the 1841 census. But possibly some of the early ones had died or left home by 1841. The earliest child (Anne bapt 1805) was baptised in Constantine, all the others in Wendron. As the Urias / Ann combination is unusual, I think this must also be their child. It might give a clue as to where Ann Johns came from. First baby was often born at the maternal grandparents house.
Added:
Ancestry has marriage og Ann Johns and Urias on 26 Dec 1804, so earlier date might be banns, or one is a transcription error. Unfortunately neither site has a scan of register
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The family have been transcribed on Ancestry as Cuba Curia?! :o
Niaes M 60
Ann F 50
Sarah F 20
Wrias M 28
William M 19
Johanah F 15
Mary F 6
Eliza F 50
Thomas M 20
Clark M 15
I have made the necessary amendments to Ancestry! ;D
That's got to be one of the worst set of transcription errors I have ever seen?!
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The family have been transcribed on Ancestry as Cuba Curia?! :o
:D :D :D :D
A new cocktail based on Cuba Libre but with Curacao added to the rum, coke and lime!
I found them on FindMyPast, Urias snr transcribed as Nials (maybe got a brother Frasier!) but Urias jnr correct and surname only has an extra "h" in, so not too easy difficult to locate.