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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: ailsac on Sunday 25 January 15 11:22 GMT (UK)
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Years ago (1990's) I ordered directly from the GRO in Scotland a extract of an entry in an OPR. I cannot remember how I got the details to order the correct entry. May have been via IGI or a familysearch film.
Anyway I wanted today to download an updated version as well as find the reference details for the entry that I have. But 1. It is not showing on Scotlandspeople at all no matter wildcards, searching for time frame with no mention of any names etc. Have tired even up to 1854 as well as in Civil Registration time frame but no luck. I also cannot locate the entry any more via familysearch and as they no longer have the old IGI I cannot check references there either.
In fact with my searches I have found NO marriage entries for the Cavers area of Roxburgh showing for the time period of 1836, and yet there is a couple showing via familysearch for that time period. (talking about other couples in this case)
I have attached a copy of the old certificate I got years ago so as to give you some idea of what I am talking about. The information much be there somewhere. BTW also checked the Catholic records as well with no results.
Marriage was: Cavers Roxburgh, Nov 13th 1836
To proclamation of James Miller, Northhouse in this parish and Euphemia Wintrop Hawick Sheil Tollbar, in the parish of Lauder.
Any ideas on where to actually find this entry for my referencing purposes would be greatly appreciated. Or has anyone had any luck in contacting Scotlandspeople re this type of situation previously.
thanks Ailsa
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Proclamation of Banns isn't necessarily a marriage. It maybe they got cold feet? What's with the 1/2? Were banns called just twice? You would expect to see at least two entries one for first banns in one parish, second for marriage in the other parish.
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Thanks for your quick reply. I have children of this marriage of which all state on either there own marriage or death certificates in Scotland that these are the parents. Also have the death certificates and all the Census records of the parents involved.
I understand it is just the Banns in the early records, but so strange that I cannot find it now on Scotlandspeople and yet I have a copy of the entry that I had written for years ago. That is my problem in that I can no longer find it to get the full reference details. Back when we did postal orders the reference details were not included on the returned official document we got back.
I have also looked at the parish of Lauder but no other entry there. I have found many times only the one entry and yet two different parishes are mentioned. I have no idea what the 1/2 is or means.
Any help on that also would be great.
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Could I suggest you contact SP direct? They will be able to examine the register in which the banns appear (they'll still be there even if a marriage didn't take place). http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=551&460
Let us know what happens :)
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It does seem to imply that the extract comes from the marriage register, however, if it is not to be found there, another possibility is that it is extracted from the minutes of the Kirk Session, from a loose paper or from an accounts book. The "To" at the beginning hints at a payment being made.
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Thank you again. I have sent them a message regarding it via your link and hopefully they will be able to reply and give me an explanation. the document I got is the official document from them, so details must be there somewhere. Do you know a link to the old IGI as I cannot seem to find it. I have a feeling back in the 1990's this was where we got the information from and then sent to Scotland with details for a copy of the transcript. I understand on the IGI there were lots of errors and also submissions but this does not seem like a submission to me or an error (not talking about spellings of names here), so would be interested if you know and any further thoughts you might have. thanks so far. Ailsa
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Hi GR2. Your information could be on the right track and I know Scotlandspeople have not uploaded the kirk session books as yet. Have heard that they have been scanned already.
So who do I contact in relation to the kirk session books for a confirmation ?
I live in Australia so no way I can visit to view myself. this might explain why I cannot locate on Scotlandspeople for this particular couple, though other entries I have going back to the 1990's are coming up for me to view and download in the clerks handwriting.
thanks
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The link for the old IGI is:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi
The reason it's not coming up anywhere as they haven't obviously put these records online yet.
However, I just put in the brides name (being the more unusual) and the entry you are referring to only comes up in 'contributed' entries and not in the indexed entries.
So, your marriage comes up first in the contributed entries and was clearly submitted by a member of the church and was clearly your link to getting hold of the copy you have.
Annette
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many thank Annette. As I got this entry years ago I cannot remember where I got the details from. So if a contributed entry via the IGI it makes sense but that person must have got the information from somewhere in order for me to also get a copy. Sounds very much like the Kirk Session books need to be looked at for this entry. I think this is solving some of the mystery and thanks for that IGI link as I could not find it on the familysearch site tonight.
I will see what the RGO has to say about the entry, but will let everyone know when I get an answer.
thanks this has been most helpful tonight and so quick.
Ailsa
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Thanks from me too Annette I'd mislaid that link, now safely bookmarked!
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They are on the 1841 together with 2 of a family and her Wintrop/Wintrup rellie at Loughburnfoot, Cavers so maybe the banns were called, marriage took place but the parish clerk forgot to write them in the register? :-\
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The link for the old IGI is:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi
The reason it's not coming up anywhere as they haven't obviously put these records online yet.
However, I just put in the brides name (being the more unusual) and the entry you are referring to only comes up in 'contributed' entries and not in the indexed entries.
So, your marriage comes up first in the contributed entries and was clearly submitted by a member of the church and was clearly your link to getting hold of the copy you have.
Annette
The submitted details can still be found on searches from the main search page- just go down to the bottom of the results on page 1 and look at Search Results from User Submitted Genealogies
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Dear Ailsa,
What a fascinating situation! I agree that this marriage does not appear to be indexed on familysearch or scotlandspeople. FreeReg are also stating they have indexed the Cavers parish marriages for this period and yet once again the entry is missing.
We suspect that when the book was microfilmed two pages were turned at once; very easy to do. All subsequent indexes have therefore not indexed the entries on the two ‘missing’ pages. We found this happened a few times when we were indexing the census. To check the census we made sure our totals matched the enumerators totals, this would alert us to a missing page. Our experience was that the GRO (Scotland's People centre) were very good at copying the missing pages for us.
The next time we’re in (not sure when) we could page through the images in the Scotland's People centre for you and if two pages have been turned we could ask them to photograph it for you.
Alternatively you could contact the Scotland's People centre directly, send them the extract you have and ask them to check the original register for you.
Either way let us know how it goes, I am intrigued!
Emma
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Emma. I had not thought of this situation - the pages missing. Makes sense when I can find other entries re Cavers Roxburghshire on the family search re same date even but they are also not showing on Scotlandspeople as I did a search re days before and after this date. But as others have suggested I feel this also might be a Kirk Session entry, hence another reason why not showing up.
Also to fifer1947 the entry on the 1841 Census is actually showing the Miller family which is correct and the child Adam Wintrup aged 11 is actually Euphemia's son born out of wedlock. I have found these details and about to get copies of them via Scottish Indexes (used to be Maxwells Ancestry), there are two entries 1. re the paternity orders and also one re a Adam Wintrup in prison records. Will be interesting to see what these show and if the same person.
I have many of my Miller family not showing on familysearch or Scotlandspeople - yet I am the holder of a Birthday book of my GG Grandmother Helen Miller who married William Elliot and then immigrated to NZ. She has written the dates of births in this book of her father James Miller, her Grand father William Miller and her Great Grandfather James Miller (going back to 1719) in her handwriting. I am trusting this book is correct (well as close as possible that is), as all the other birthdates written in it are proving to be correct.
I think I am really waiting for the Kirk Session books to be available for all to search. Seems I cannot even order them via the familysearch microfilm order which is a pity.
So my next question really is - How do I access the details of the Kirk Session books from Australia ?
thanks again to everyone who is replying this has been a great day for me.
Ailsa
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Well, there clearly is an entry in the OPR but for reason it isn't in the scanned and indexed files on SP. I suspect the missing pages theory could be correct. I've looked through quite a few Kirk Session Minute books and have never seen an entry for banns as per the one you have.
I've also had to contact SP about erroneous or missing records and they've been fantastic, so you should receive a helpful reply.
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Whilst the National Records of Scotland is now an amalgamation of what was once the GRO and the Scottish Record Office/National Archives of Scotland, back in the 1990s they were completely separate. Apart from a few anomalies the Kirk Sessions were always held by the Scottish Record Office/National Archives of Scotland. To this day, even though both come under the new new name (the National Records of Scotland), and there is some overlapping with staff, they are still very separate organizations. I cannot imagine the GRO staff would have done a Kirk Session search for you. The Scottish Record office/National Archives of Scotland may have done but they would not have had the authority to write out an official OPR extract, which is what you have. This is a legally binding document, the same principles apply as if a living person was to order a copy of a birth certificate today. Whilst mistakes could have been made, e.g. perhaps the spelling is wrong, it will have been made from an OPR.
As for the Kirk Sessions, well I keep hearing that they will go online soon but… we’re still waiting. I know the SP site is to have a major overhaul in 2016 so I wonder if they are waiting for that. The reality is that it would be very hard to index Kirk Sessions and so many feel they could only be published on a subscription site; this is of course a major deviation from the SP model at the moment.
I am Emma Maxwell of Scottish Indexes by the way, just in case you hadn’t made the connection.
Emma
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Hi to both Emma and JMStrachan
thanks to you both. I am hoping that there are missing pages and SP will get back to me regarding this entry to see if it is an OPR entry indexed wrongly or a Kirk Session record. Really nice to know that you have not seen a Kirk Session entry as such - I have not had the privilege of viewing any Kirk Sessions as yet. So lets hope my inquiry to SP brings forward some answers.
Emma - I should have twigged it was you. I have just sent you a personal email re some further inquires regarding this family.
The document I have definitely has the watermark of the Crowns and the GRO stamped on it if you hold it up to the light. Does not show on the scanned copy, so it is genuine. I now think that I would have got the information from the IGI back then (days before recording all your source material was really stipulated and important for future research) - silly me as now I need this information to prove and help correct errors on others family trees, let alone my own family tree.
Again thanks to all that have replied so far, this has been a great night for me solving some mysteries. Ailsa
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testing notifications :)
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Hi
If it's any consolation, my 3 x great grandparents' proclamation and date of marriage are/were on the film that a cousin hired via FamilySearch in the old days. They have never appeared on SP. The copy that I have is very badly damaged and difficult to read. I have always assumed that that was why it has never appeared there.
Further, re the problem of indexing the Kirk Sessions. I agree that it would be difficult but even a selective index, as in the Dumfries and Galloway Historical Indexes, would be a great help.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
This is also something to think about, but it is not showing on the familysearch site anymore either apart from the old IGI. So I think it is a submission on the IGI but I definitely got the copy well before Scotlandspeople existed with their indexes or ability to download. As my copy is a handwritten one by a clerk, it could well be so damaged and faint that it was never indexed or scanned. I have just received an email back from SP - not very helpful saying they cannot assist with any personal research and if via my SP account in the past then it should be in my account. As it was not obtained this way I cannot locate it on my SP account.
Think I will need to order in the films for that area myself and recheck everything.
Things are starting to sound like 1: if record damaged etc could possible not filmed or indexed. 2: pages been missed while the indexing and filming too place
Thanks to everyone how has offered suggestions and ideas. Tells me I am not going silly in trying to locate this event.
regards Ailsa
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Hi Everyone that has helped me with this problem.
This morning I got a reply from SP which was not very helpful, saying they cannot carry out research and to look back on my SP account to view previous searches etc.
As I have been using SP since 2002, and this entry was obtained well before that date, I cannot go back that far on their site.
It was then suggested that I contact NRS Office directly regarding my query. I have just come home and found an email saying yes the entry is there which is good.
Exceptionally, I have searched our records which are the same as those on our website and immediately found the entry you are referring to.
The marriage year is 1836, the parish number is 785 and the volume is number 0030. There is only the one entry for that year in Roxburgh, so I am not sure why you could not find it.
So I have been back onto SP site and no matter what I key in - No names etc just the date of 1836 - I still get a NIL result. I have tried putting in the GRO Number, but again getting a NIL result.
As I have not used the direct GRO number previously to locate an entry, can anyone advise how to do this correctly.
I have put in 785/000 0030; 785/ 0030 and etc numerous ways to put in with or without the zeros.
I have written back to the person with a screen shot of my results attached.
But can I ask if anyone on the list is able to just do a search to see if anything does come up and if so please tell me how you achieved it, so that I can then do so to obtain a copy of the Banns.
Many thanks
Ailsa
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Hi Ailsa
I've just tried using the GRO ref and as instructed on the website:
If you know the GROS data reference for the record which you are looking for, you may enter it here.
For example: 351/00 0879
Please note that you will also have to enter the correct year to ensure that only one record is returned.
Nothing is coming up. I also tried various other ways but again, I couldn't find anything.
I suggest that you could as for them to investigate why this is or send you a copy.
Gadget
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Just checked the OPR lists - Cavers for that year is 785/3
Will try 785/30 0000
added - still nothing :(
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Many thanks for doing this Gadget, these are all the things I have tried as well. Even checked that the dates are covered. They say the marriage go from 1820 - 1841 for Cavers - and I even tried up to 1854 with no success. I have even done a selection of dates from 10 - 15 Nov 1836 for Roxburgh, which brings up all entries for those days that are recorded. Again there is no entry during that time period for my certificate. So it is looking like as others have mentioned earlier that perhaps the entry has been missed while indexing/scanning.
I am about to contact Scotlandspeople again with these results to see if they can help solve the mystery. It has been good I have had replies back from both places today that I contacted - so good service that way.
I really appreciate you looking for me as well. Was starting to think I was dreaming or inputting things wrong.
regards Ailsa
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Just had a lovely email from Keith Paxton from Scotlandspeople Centre to say thank you for informing them about the marriage that is missing from the indexes. When the site is next updated (they do it in batches) this marriage will then be available for downloading. He does not know when they will do it next but it will be done and fixed.
So I would just like to say to all that have helped me on the query a Big Thank you and please if anyone else is reading these posts and you find you are in the same situation. Follow it through, check with Edinburgh to see if it is there and then if so get someone else to check the indexes on SP just to make sure you have not missed it, and then notify SP regarding this.
It is a good outcome and I now know they will also investigate if something is not correct.
regards Ailsa
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has anyone mentioned their religion
If you are look for non-conformists before 1855 - they may not appear in the OPR - you may have to look in the church records (Index reference = ch3 at National archive for scotland) or kirk session records - but also depends on the ministers record keeping & not al records survive. can involve some digging
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Great you got a result!
Regarding the kirk session registers - for people in Scotland who can visit them, there are various archive repositories which have virtual access to them (Aberdeen and Highland for example).
If you're not in Scotland, Aberdeen City & Aberdeenshire Archives (www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/archives (http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/archives)) carry out paid research for people who can't visit in person and would carry out a search of available kirk session records for anywhere in the country, not just those parishes in the Aberdeenshire area.
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Thanks for that info regarding the Kirk Session. I knew they were in Edinburgh but did not release they could also be accessed by a researcher in Aberdeen. This is also good news for others living in Scotland who cannot get to Edinburgh. For me I tend to watch what the exchange rate is doing before ordering any searches but sometimes you just have to have that information.
I will keep the Aberdeen archives bookmarked.
Thanks Ailsa