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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: alpinecottage on Tuesday 27 January 15 18:17 GMT (UK)
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Sarah Eleanor Perrins, bn 1884 and known as Nellie, left England in 1924 to join her sister in Australia.
The sister was Hilda Godfrey Perrins, bn 1893, who emigrated in 1920, married Frank Cobon Adams in Narromine in 1925, moved to Sydney between 1930 and 1936, was widowed there in 1949 and finally died herself in 1965.
I have a photo (undated) of two quite elderly ladies with the following written on the back; This is Hilda and I, taken at the front of our homes. It is unsigned, but it was sent back to family in Manchester, which implies Hilda and Nellie were living close to each other in Sydney - Hilda's address from about 1940 to her death was 107 Old South Head Road, Bondi.
EDITED I have another photo, taken by Balma Studios, which I think is in Ingham, N Queensland, of a lady in her 50s. It is signed on the back "from your sister Nellie" and is in the same hand as the writing on the other photo.
Can anyone find any paper trace of Nellie in Australia? Did she live in Queensland when she first went to Australia? Did she marry? When did she die?
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There is a probate packet available for Hilda Godfrey ADAMS at NSW state records. I can photograph these for you the next time I am there (in a couple of weeks). They will probably mention Nellie and give her name and address.
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\1189378
regards
Ros
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Hi,
Are you happy to share the photo please?
Leanne
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Oh yes please!! Thanks for the offer Ros.
It will be fascinating even if it doesn't mention Nellie, (who would have been 81 when Hilda died) as I can't imagine Hilda left much - her husband was a "cash buyer of all second hand ware" and wool, hides and skins - sounds a bit down-market doesn't it? ;D
Added; Need to scan the photos, will post as soon as I've done so, Leanne
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Interested to see if the homes match these?
Neil
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I thought those were the lines you were thinking along - unfortunately the photo is poor and the homes mostly out of sight!
There will be a short delay while I resize the photo! ::)
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Here we are;
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Well the photo of the ladies is not at or near Bondi? Looks more like it could be in Queensland?
Neil
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Funeral notice for Hilda Godfrey Adams
SMH16Aug1965(see left-hand page in this link) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01emv/
http://www.esmp.net.au/search-map-facility/crematorium-search.aspx
Hilda Godfrey Adams; Cremation date 16/08/196573; Burial in Accord
SMH13May1949DEATHS http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18114892
ADAMS Frank Cobon-May 12, 1949 at private hospital Killara beloved husband of Hilda Adams of Bondi Junction.
Funeral notice (same page) Rookwood Crematorium
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A slight resize and retouch, very grainy unfortunately. Could be anywhere, but not in Sydney proper.
Neil
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Cupoflife; Thanks for the funeral notice for Hilda, I hadn't found that though I have the notice for her husband, Frank.
Neil; I have Hilda marrying in Narromine in 1925, on the electoral register there in 1928 and 1930, then in Sydney at 176 Forbes St, Darlinghurst in 1936 and 1937, and finally at Old South Head Rd in 1943, 49, 54, 58 and 63. I suppose she could have been in Qld in 1930-35 or 1938-43, but she would have been about 40 or about 50 years old at those times, and I think the two ladies both look older than that. :-\
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Thank you Neil, that's better. Think the photo was taken by an eight year old! or by someone sitting down!
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The homes opposite have rural fencing and are typical country style homes rather than city. They could have been somewhere on holidays perhaps. The road is only gravel also.
Neil
added: I meant to say that the homes that I put up in first picture are actually 170 Old South Head Road Bondi Junction, the address you said was their home?
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Hilda lived at 107 Old Sth Head Rd (electoral registers).
The photo says "taken at the front of our homes" which doesn't really suggest they were on their hols :-\ How built up was Bondi in, say, 1950?
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Those homes I put up in my first photo are of
170 107 Old Sth Head road and the homes would have been built turn of the 19th century. So I am a bit mystified as to where that pic was taken.
Neil
modified typo.
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Looks more like Ingham does still look. Perhaps they spent some time in Qld - just need to find a paper trail.
Late here now, I must go to bed. Thanks all for your help so far.
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:-\ How built up was Bondi in, say, 1950?
I agree with Neil. Bondi was definitely 'built up' long before 1950s.... Try the photo gallery at TROVE at this link to confirm that Bondi has been a significantly urban area since perhaps before WWI even.... http://trove.nla.gov.au/
for example c1910 and look at the cabling on the telegraph poles http://photosau.com.au/Waverley/scripts/ExtSearch.asp?SearchTerm=002796
or Bondi Junction CBD no later than 1927 http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=71830
Cheers, JM
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/70994841@N07/14145376936 1940s, Ingham Qld ;D
Cheers, JM
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Here's a very unlikely piece of speculation! ::) ???
Hilda married Frank in Narromine in 1925, and the couple are on the electoral register there in 1928 and 1930. Just a thought - I wonder if Nellie went to live/stay in Narromine for a while after her arrival in 1924. The photo looks as though it may have been taken in the early 50s - perhaps they went back for a visit???? Narromine looks to be fairly flat though and this photo has a slight rise in the background.
Hilda and Frank, although both with the surname ADAMS are listed at different addresses in Narromine in 1930. Frank, dealer, at Dandaloo St, and Hilda (hd) at Merringo St. (I don't have access earlier to the 1928 entry). This may be explained by the fact that Dandaloo St seems to be the main road and perhaps that was his business address. I had a Googlemap walk along Merringo St but couldn't see a setting that would match the photo.
Judith
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Hi there,
I can see a Miss Sarah PERRINS, aged 40, as a passenger travelling to Australia on the SS Ballarat disembarking (as per National Archives of Australia’s online index) Sydney NSW 28 October, 1924.
From Sands NSW Directories 1925 I can see
George PERRINS, William St, Chatswood
Harry G PERRINS, 172 New South Head Road, Double Bay.
Frank C ADAMS, Skin and hide buyer, Narromine
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
NSW ER 1936 DARLING, polling at Gilgandra
Sarah PERRIN, Rawsonville, via Dubbo, home duties
(of course this may well NOT be Nellie)
Cheers, JM
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Just a quick response as I have to go to a funeral in an hour - shouldn't really be here!
There was a Perrin (no s on end) family in Dubbo - I'm fairly sure they aren't mine.
Yes, I have the passenger list entry; that and the photos made me realise Sarah E (Nellie) went to Australia too. Her departure address is her brother's home address in Formby (nr Liverpool)
Also can't open the Flikr link, but a stroll round modern Ingham suggests terrain like that in the two ladies photo.
If Nellie was still alive when Hilda died, she may have come back to England (though unlikely and I don't remember any mention of her). Can the return passenger lists be checked?
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The photo of those two ladies .... well, there's lots in the background that reminds me of Gilgandra, particularly the enclosed verandah on the house which seems to have new iron on the roof. Without close ups of the ladies faces, it is really not easy to say if they are aged 40 or aged 70, as their dresses are typical of all female adults from my own 1950s childhood in rural NSW.
Cheers, JM
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A possible marriage :-\
Dubbo is about 40kms/30mins from Narromine.
Sarah PERRIN m. George DAVIS 15/03/1926 DUBBO #2752
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
*Edited to add*
Possibly not if this is the above Sarah's birth:
Sarah PERRIN b. 1908 DUBBO #13789
Parents: John & Sarah
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Merlin; thanks for looking into this. As I said, I don't think the PERRIN family (no s) at Dubbo is mine. Only Hilda and Nellie emigrated, all their brothers, sisters and Perrins uncles and aunts are accounted for in England.
Judb; Some years ago, the helpful librarian at Narromine library looked into this for me, she found a good paper trail for Hilda and Frank Adams for me, but no trace of Nellie. (Marriage, electoral registers, adverts in newspaper) She wrote that Frank had an advert for his shop in Narromine (Dandaloo St, rented from the Catholic Church) in the newspaper from 1932-34. This suggests that he and Hilda moved straight from Narromine (1935-ish) to Darlinghurst, Sydney in 1936, then on to Bondi Junction by 1943.
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Sarah/Nellie just seems to have disappeared! ::) I thought I'd throw in the Narromine suggestion but you have obviously well and truly explored that.
Another long shot. There is a Nellie PERRINS on the electoral rolls in Victoria from 1950 up to 1980; which, of course, would make her a very old lady indeed. I only have access up to 1980 so this Nellie may be on later rolls, which would almost certainly eliminate her. None of the Victorian entries has anyone else of the surname PERRINS listed at the same address and her occupation is consistently 'home duties'. She could be living with someone else or be a live-in domestic. Unfortunately it isn't possible to search the rolls by address, only by name.
I cannot see her on the inbound UK shipping lists but these are not very reliable.
Judith
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Judith, I traced the one in Victoria. She died 31 Mar 1994 & was buried at Box Hill Cemetery 5 Apr 1994:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
http://boxhillcemetery.org/mapguide/BoxHill/Public/search.php
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Good finds Merlin; I thought someone would probably have looked at her. Oh dear, this is one elusive lady!
Judith
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I will also add that the 1994 Nellie PERRINS at Box Hill Cemetery is buried with her first husband Lawrence Henry BARNS.
Lawrence Hy BARNS age 54yrs d. 1946 DNONG #18414
Parents: Hy Scoby BARNS & Jane DUNNING
Burial: 26/04/1946
Their marriage:
Lawrence Hy BARNS m. Nellie SCHWAB 1923 #5095
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Ok, thank you Merlin, that definitely eliminates that Nellie Perrins on about four counts!
I have a couple of options still open - one is the probate package for Hilda that Rosball offered to look at for me which may contain some useful information. Secondly, I have a pile of letters that Hilda and Nellie's nephews wrote to each other during the war. I will trawl through them for any mention of the Australian aunts to give an indication of whether Nellie was still alive during the war.
I'm beginning to wonder if Nellie and Hilda deliberately covered over Nellie's tracks or sent home misleading information.....but Nellie looks such a respectable lady! :o
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Hi,
Are you able to provide any information on the nephews or siblings of Hilda and Sarah please?
Leanne
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Siblings were; Frederick William 1877-1918, Charles Hastings 1879-1956, Ethel Meredith 1881-1965, Sarah Eleanor (Nellie) 1883-??, Walter Anderson 1885-1948, Florence Eliza 1888-1918 and Hilda Godfrey 1892-1965. All surname Perrins.
By 1925, Frederick and Florence deceased, Charles, Ethel and Walter all living in Lancashire and Hilda and Nellie in Australia. The nephews were sons of Charles, (my father and 2 uncles were still children in 1925 and accounted for during the war)
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Seems that Balma Studios may have had more than one place of business. The following are photos from Trove attributed to Balma Studios - they're mostly social page photos.
Balma Studios, Innisfail 1952
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57092110
Ingham 1946
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62998014
Townsville, 1949
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/63073052
I'm assuming that the photo you have from Balma Studios would have been taken in a studio, and thus no background clues?
Judith
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All the studios are Queensland though.
Here's the photo, yes, it's in the studio, you can just make out the name, Balma Studios, embossed in lower right hand corner;
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She looks such a nice person. You're right, all in Queensland.
Just for anyone looking her parents (according to NSW death index for Hilda) are Frederick William and Georgina Harriet.
Judith
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Hi,
I wonder if she went to Western Australia?
I think this is a possibility for a nephew and his wife.
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KC00065368
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=FC00071313 ( a very recent death)
Leanne
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Found this
Evie PERRINS
Funeral notice PERRINS: The Funeral Service for Mrs Evie Perrins, late of Mandurah will be held at Simplicity Chapel, 73 Gordon Rd, Mandurah on FRIDAY (19.12.2014) commencing at 10.00am. Followed by a celebration of her life at the Murray River Village, 7 Coolibah Avenue, Dudley Park at 11.30am. No flowers please. MANDURAH 9534 9488 Locations Nationally simplicityfunerals.com.au
See more at: http://www.westannouncements.com.au/obituaries/thewest-au/obituary.aspx?n=evie-perrins&pid=173447711&fhid=14426#sthash.tcq5FfAB.dpuf
Cass
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Leanne, you are correct, that is a nephew and his wife. A thought has just occurred to me, but I have to be a bit careful as the nephew's half brothers and sisters are still alive (but none in Australia) and also his daughter who may be in Australia:
The father of this nephew was Walter, whose address in Formby (Lancashire) Nellie left from to go to Australia. She would have known the nephew and his brothers. Prior to moving to WA, the nephew and his wife lived in South Africa - Durban, I think. Yesterday I was reading through a great pile of letters written by my father (cousin of above nephew) and he described his journey in early 1942 by boat from England to India though without a lot of detail to avoid the censors pen. He implies he spent 4 days at Durban "within a few minutes of Auntie's (something) address, so near yet so far". He doesn't say which Auntie, but there is only one not accounted for at this time; that's Nellie.
I will scan the section in a minute and post it on the deciphering board to see if anyone can read the missing word. I wonder if we're off to South Africa on this quest?
Here's the link; http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=711561.msg5551306
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An update; Rosball has very kindly photoed Hilda's probate package for me. There was no mention of Nellie, and her modest legacy was left to two friends. Thank you Ros. :D
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Remarkable likeness to the lady in this photo which is from my own personal collection.... and has been in my hands from the early 1950s. I knew the lady in my photo very well.
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
The migration of the 2 deceased family members mentioned in an earlier post was handled via the Pretoria Office South Africa:
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/SeriesDetail.aspx?series_no=A7632&singleRecord=T
Edit to add:
Someone may be able to check South Africa records.
Leanne
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Hi,
Is someone able to put the 2 photos side by side for comparison please?
Leanne
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Do you have the full dates of birth for Sarah E (1883) & Hilda G (1892)?
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Do you have the full dates of birth for Sarah E (1883) & Hilda G (1892)?
No, neither, but their births were registered in 3rd quarters of each year ie Sarah Eleanor 3Q 1883 and Hilda Godfrey 3Q 1892, both in Manchester, Lancashire.
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Hi,
Is someone able to put the 2 photos side by side for comparison please?
Leanne
I don't think it's the same person - Nellie's nose is blobbier, her eyes are lighter and her face is fuller. Was the lady you knew, majm, from England?
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It's some years since I persued this quest, but today I saw that Ancestry.au had free access so I looked again for Sarah Eleanor Perrins (Gt Aunt Nellie) in Australia.
Lo and behold, a Sarah Eleanor Perrins showed up in 1931 at Wondecla, Nr Herberton, Queensland on the electoral registers. This ties in most conveniently with the photograph taken in the Balma Studios (3 studios all in Queensland at innisfail, Townsville and Ingham) (See reply 33) I don't know how many years of Queensland electoral records they have on Ancestry, but this is the only one that showed up.
So my questions are
1. Can anyone find her in the Wondecla area in other years and
2. What could have drawn a 50 year old single lady to that fairly remote area. The 1901 census shows her as an Apprentice Dressmaker but the 1911 census and the 1924 shipping manifest as having no occupation. The 1931 electoral register says her occupation is HD (home duties?)
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I may have missed her but I can't see any other mentions for her on Aussie Ancestry. No marriage or death recorded there nor on Qld BMD.
Perhaps she was employed as domestic help?
Judith
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Thank you for that, Judith. I went back into Ancestry.au and saw that earlier and later (1928 and 1930s) electoral registers for Wondecla are on there, but I found no further trace of her, either.
It has been suggested that I email the Qld Library Service and ask if they can find anything. Otherwise, it may be a case of waiting for something else to turn up!
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I was wondering if Sarah Eleanor was not mentioned in Hilda's will because she predeceased her?
Also she arrived in 1924, the depression is here and so any work available for a single woman would be acceptable e.g. home duties/ domestic in the Hinterland on a farming property??
I did see a death in NSW 1945 for Sarah Ellen Perrins.. is this worth pursuing?
shume
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Definitely pursue that 1945 death. Lots of my ancestors travelled to far north Queensland and farmed there. So you could be correct about travelling north for domestic work.
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NSW births deaths and marriages shows her as Sarah Helen PERRINS dying in 1945.
Father Robert Watt
Mother Mary
Regards
Jennaya
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NSW births deaths and marriages shows her as Sarah Helen PERRINS dying in 1945.
Father Robert Watt
Mother Mary
Regards
Jennaya
So likely this entry in the Ryerson Index:
. PERRINS Sara Helen Death notice 08NOV1945 Death late of Roseville Sydney Morning Herald 10NOV1945
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Not your person of interest. She was Sara Helen THOMSON prior to her marriage to Walter George PERRINS in 1888
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17959202
Sydney Morning Herald 10 Nov 1945
Death
PERRINS - November 8 1945 at her residence 43 Pacific Highway Roseville Sara Helen dearly beloved wife of Walter George Perrins and loving mother of Amy (Mrs T M Philson) and Dorothy (Mrs E Koch) and grandmother of Nancy. Privately cremated.
Cando
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Thanks for your efforts, everyone.
I was just about to ask for some information on those lines, and you've beaten me to it! Oh well, that clarifies that she's not my aunt! Thanks, cando.
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Age is close...
Deaths Sep 1968
PERRINS Sarah E 81 years Birmingham 9c/69
Cando