RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: minniehaha on Thursday 29 January 15 23:41 GMT (UK)
-
Here is a problem which is possibly unsolvable but fresh eyes may find the answer...........
In the main, the puzzle starts when Ann Nicol and her father James arrived in New Zealand per the 'Clontarf' about 1859 (not proven) and her four sisters following with their mother Euphemia/Elspeth/Elspith) per the 'Pladda' in 1862. (Mary, Helen, Elisabeth & Agnes found on the 'Pladda' but not their mother).
Ann NICOL, born 30.9.1845 @ Dalgety, Fife. [parents David Nicol & Agnes MacHardie]
Mary NICOL, born 5.3.1847 @ Dalgety, Fife. [parents David Nicol & Elspeth MacHardie]
Helen NICOL, born 30.4.1848 @ Dalgety, Fife. [parents David Nicol & Agnes MacHardie]
Elisabeth NICOL, born 3.5.1849 @ Dalgety, Fife. [parents David Nicol & Elspeth MacHardie]
Agnes(s) NICOL, born 1.5.1852 @ Dailly, Ayr. [parents David Nicol & Elspith McHardie]
Here we see that Ann & Helen have a different mother from Elisabeth & Agnes. However, the main mystery is that the father of all the girls in New Zealand is recorded to have been James Greive NICOL(L) and not David NICOL(L) for events such as marriage & death. Also James has been claimed as their father in the two obituaries of daughters.
[The 1851 census shows David as the father of those girls born prior to this year.]
No descendants of the five girls had even an inkling that such a mystery existed until family research began.
Anyone got any ideas?
Minniehaha.
-
Hi Minniehaha,
I wonder if this is David Nicoll - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBC8-VH3
born 7/3/1812 to James Nicoll and Helen Grieve at Auchterhouse Angus.
Looby :)
-
Hi Looby,
Now that is interesting. When James Nicol* died in New Zealand in 1889 he was said to be aged 77 years, therefore year of birth about 1812. His father's name was unknown by his son-in-law who provided details at registration, but his mother was recorded as being Helen Nicol, formerly Grieve.
*His will shows James G. Nicoll and death registration for his wife Euphemia, shows James Grieve Nicoll.
[Nicol or Nicoll. Greive or Grieve.]
If David & James were one and the same, why the name change I wonder??
Minniehaha.
-
Yes it is very interesting :)
Same with Elizabeth being Agnes on 2 of the girls births. Obviously Elspeth is a version of Elizabeth but I've never seen Agnes being interchangeable for Elizabeth. So I don't think the girls have different mothers.
As to why David seems to be James ?? Unless James was a brother?
Have you found the mother Elizabeth and the 4 girls on the 1861 Census yet?
Looby :)
-
This you may have - David and Elspet on the 1841 Census at Auchterhouse in Angus (David gives this as his place of birth on the 1851)
Address - Dronley
LESLEY Jean F 45 Angus
LESLEY Ann F 8 Angus
NEISH William M 15 Hand Loom Weaver Angus
NICOLL David M 29 Forrester Angus
NICOLL Helen F 70 Independent Angus
ARNOT Patrick M 50 Farmer Angus
ARNOT Ann F 45 Angus
ARNOT Betsy F 2 Angus
MCHARDY Elspet F 25 Female Servant Outside Census County
MCGREGOR Elizabeth F 20 Female Servant Outside Census County
CHALMERS George M 15 Clerk Angus
CHALMERS Andrew M 14 Angus
The couple appear to be living in the same household along with what appears to be David's Mother Helen Nicoll. All spellings are as transcribed on Freecen.
Looby :)
-
Marriage
First name(s) Elspet
Last name Mchardie
Marriage year 1843
Marriage date 16 Dec 1843
Marriage place Auchterhouse,Angus,Scotland
Spouse's first name(s) David
Spouse's last name Nicoll
Place Auchterhouse
County Forfarshire (Angus)
Country Scotland
Cheers Janette
-
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
King Street, Monifieth, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Household Members
First name Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Elisabeth Mchardy Nicol Head Married Female 46 1815 Seaman's Wife Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Helen Nicol Daughter - Female 14 1847 - Fife, Scotland
Elisabeth Nicol Daughter - Female 12 1849 - Fife, Scotland
Agnes Nicol Daughter - Female 10 1851 - Ayrshire, Scotland
Cheers Janette
-
Thank you Looby,
Yes, I do have that census information. Dronley is shown on the death registration for Euphemia/Elspeth as her birthplace, so that ties in well. [Her parents names are unknown but her maiden shown as McHardy.]
I have not located the family in the 1861 census. At that time only Ann and her father were in New Zealand.
The obituary of Elisabeth (Elizabeth) says she was the fourth daughter of Mr. James Nicoll. ........."When she was three years of age the family went to live in Ayreshire, her father having been appointed head forester on the estate of the Right Hon. Sir F. E. Kennedy, which estate adjoined the ancestral home of Sir Charles Fergusson"............ Also said she was born @ Fife on May 6, 1850 which does not tie in with that found on the Family Search website.
In New Zealand James took up farming in a very small way.
Janette, that marriage looks to be spot on, thank you. :)
Minniehaha.
-
I wonder if the name change was due to the fact he was a seaman who jumped ship in NZ
Cheers Janette
-
Thanks again Janette,
Years ago I too, found that 1861 census entry and pondered over it for some time. My main doubt was "seaman's wife" and to a lesser extent, the birthplace of "Aberdeenshire" and the year of birth for Helen.
The birth place abuts Angus and I'm not sure now whether the year was calculated by the enumerator or the person being enumerated, so those two points probably don't matter very much.
I'm glad you have brought this census back into focus for me as I really think it must be "my" Nicoll family. There are just too many coincidences.
Did David die and James (a brother?) take his place? The girls must have been young at the time, otherwise surely some hint as to why there was a change re the man about the house would have reached their ears, either as children or adults.
Just noticed your message before finishing mine Janette. Yes, that does look to be a possibility/explanation. (Jumping ship). We have pondered this mystery for many years and maybe David and James were one and the same after all.
Minniehaha.
-
Question.......
If David/James Nicol(l) had travelled as a crew member, presumably his daughter Ann should have been recorded on the manifest as a passenger?
Minniehaha.
-
Had James Nicholl, the father, died before the family came to NZ?
Coming from a family where sometimes it seemed to be 'think of names for us to use on the birth certificate/christening, then we won't use them anymore', and people called by all manner of diminutives and short forms often because they resembled a relation, I wonder if the NZ bound James/David Nicholl was christened James after his father but called David. Ot the other way round too? Perhaps he he may have resembled a David possibly on his mother's side or perhaps to stop confusion with the father. Or there may have been a family breakup between Helen and James, the parents, and so the use of the nickname stuck. I had a thought that he may have been called Davy which seemed a popular diminutive.
Coming to NZ with application forms being filled in for land etc or because he wanted to remember his father or claim back his 'birth' name he could have decided to revert to James. Or perhaps he was the son who should have been called James if strict Scottish naming patterns had been followed and for some reason it was not followed.
I wonder if we can see who completed the last census form in Scotland. If not completed by someone in the family the enumerator may have learned the family called him Davy and made it into David. Same with the births of the children in Scotland. Was he the informant? Did he sign there? or was it another case of an official knowing his family called him Davy/David and completed the form for him and he made his mark?
All this depends on finding a David in the family possibly on the mother's side. Or if the record is correct with the 1812 birth then a memory of his father when striking out for a new life may have been the motivator.
Now the different names for the wives .......
Agnes, Anne, Nancy are interchangeable in Ireland.
I wonder who registered the births as informant....maybe the wife's name was Elizabeth Agnes or Agnes Elizabeth and she was called one and christened the other and whoever registered them put the 'correct' name, ie had a knowledge of the correct name ie first name as christened or registered and another person who knew the common name registered others.
-
Hello Shanreagh...
Thank you for your response and the floating of ideas. All are most welcome. :)
Just one thing, as registration did not begin until 1855 in Scotland, my ancestors unfortunately missed out on this.
I will forward your thoughts on to other family members who, with me, are trying to solve the puzzle.
Thank you again.......
Minniehaha.
-
Question.......
If David/James Nicol(l) had travelled as a crew member, presumably his daughter Ann should have been recorded on the manifest as a passenger?
Minniehaha.
Hi Minnie,
Just speculation, she might not have been recorded with her name, but could have been put down as e.g. 10 passengers. Used to see it that way sometimes, when I did shipping transcribing.
Cheers
KHP
-
Very true KHP. Thanks for that...... :)
Minniehaha.