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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: Duodecem on Sunday 01 February 15 09:22 GMT (UK)

Title: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Sunday 01 February 15 09:22 GMT (UK)
Sophia Holford married John Thomas Morton in Windsor in 1844 and died there in 1913.
The census records give her place of birth as either Addlestone or nearby Chertsey.
I have been unable to find any record of her birth. I've looked on Ancestry, Family Search (their Addlestone records only start in 1841) and Freereg (No Addlestone records at all.)
I would be grateful if someone could suggest anywhere else I could search.
Are the records for Surrey online anywhere?
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: suzard on Sunday 01 February 15 10:03 GMT (UK)
what is her father's name on marriage cert?
And witnesses?

Do you have her in 1841?

Suz
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: JGDavies on Sunday 01 February 15 14:26 GMT (UK)
Try Surrey History Centre
http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/recreation-heritage-and-culture/archives-and-history/surrey-history-centre (http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/recreation-heritage-and-culture/archives-and-history/surrey-history-centre)
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 01 February 15 16:23 GMT (UK)
Surrey History centre don't seem to have PR's for the period you are after in Chertsey, Addlestone, New Haw or Woodham. 

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xvo/

There are a George, Sarah and Mary Halford resident in the Kings Head Chertsey in 1841.  :-\
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: hanes teulu on Sunday 01 February 15 17:24 GMT (UK)
http://forebears.co.uk/birth?pid=9120

http://forebears.co.uk/england/surrey/chertsey
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Monday 02 February 15 17:39 GMT (UK)
Thank you everyone for your replies-in order- I haven't got her marriage certificate, suzard -maybe I should send for it -a father's name would be helpful. The first census I have found was after her marriage in 1851. The nearest I have found in 1841 is Sophia Holford born abt 1819 in Sussex Brighthelmsone. While the age would fit -given the "rounding" of ages in 1841 and the born in Sussex is a tick box for born in county so may be wrong-there is no evidence to place her there-and no other family members with her so no clues.
The Halford link in Chertsey is helpful Rosie-they could be members of her family-possibly her parents?
Iv'e followed the other links and it doesn't look as if the Addlestone /Chertsey baptismal records are available before 1838, sadly. It looks as though buying the marriage certificate is my best bet.
Thanks again  :)
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: suzard on Tuesday 03 February 15 18:51 GMT (UK)
The nearest I have found in 1841 is Sophia Holford born abt 1819 in Sussex Brighthelmsone. While the age would fit -given the "rounding" of ages in 1841 and the born in Sussex is a tick box for born in county so may be wrong-there is no evidence to place her there-and no other family members with her so no clues.

Thanks again  :)

Possible the Sophia Holford in Brighthelmstone in 1841 is the Sophia baptised 1823 in Clayton Sussex -parents Nathan & Barbara

There is a tree on A******y which gives "your" Sophia's father as Robert -no source given

Suz
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Wednesday 04 February 15 14:15 GMT (UK)
Thank you suz-I thought it was unlikely she would be living so far from home. I did see the Ancestry tree naming her father as Robert but there's no evidence so I assume it's another of those unhelpful "hints".
I've just sent for the marriage certificate.I hope it might name her father-I'll keep you posted. Jan
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: suzard on Wednesday 04 February 15 18:51 GMT (UK)
Safest thing is marriage cert - will be good to hear details when it arrives

Suz
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Tonykelly on Thursday 05 February 15 17:34 GMT (UK)
Addlestone was part of Chertsey parish, St Paul's wasn't built to around 1838 and became a District Church.   It might be worth checking checking the Chertsey registers if you haven't already.  It didn't become the Parish church until 1857
see: http://chertseymuseum.org/addlestone (amongst others)

Tony Kelly, 
Monumental Inscriptions
West Surrey Family History Society

Find us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MISurrey
The Surrey Monumental Inscription Index is now online in the Members Area of our website:


Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Friday 06 February 15 10:11 GMT (UK)
Thank you Tony -that's helpful to know. So , presumably she was born in Addlestone and baptised in Chertsey. Are the Chersey baptism records on-line anywhere, I haven't been able to find them?
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 06 February 15 13:31 GMT (UK)
Yes St Peter Chertsey are here on Ancestry up to 1812
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=4790

I can only see a George Hoford bn 1750 son of John on there though.  Byfleet St Mary is also covered which isn't that far away
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Tonykelly on Friday 06 February 15 13:40 GMT (UK)
Hi.

The PRs are on Ancestry so they must be in the Surrey History Centre.  Although as a previous poster said they are difficult to find.   I do find the SHC web site and catalogue difficult to use (and I have been building web sites for nearly 20 years)

The LDS have also filmed the BTs if that is easier for you

"Chertsey, Surrey, England - Church records
Title:   Bishop's transcripts for Chertsey, 1693-1852
Authors:   Church of England. Parish Church of Chertsey (Surrey)
Film Items:   Microfilm 0307771 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1693-1694, 1729-1730, 1800-1835
Microfilm 0307772 Baptisms and burials, 1836-1852; Marriages, 1836-1843"

from http://www.londonfhc.org/content/catalogue?p=England,England,Surrey,Chertsey&f=1

consulted just now.


and finally  .... WSFHS have published a CD (CD 26) which cover this

"Parish Register Transcipts and Indexes in the Chertsey District - January 2012
The Parish Register Transcriptions and Indexes on this CD have been brought together from other publications produced by West Surrey FHS"

http://wsfhs.org/pages/cds.php (and scroll down)

If you have no luck in the meantime all the West Surrey FHS resources will be available for consultation and for sale at the Surrey Family History Fair on 31 October in Woking Leisure Centre.  Free admission, and limited free parking. As will many of other Societies' research material

HTH ( and apologies for the information overload)

Tony Kelly, 
Monumental Inscriptions
West Surrey Family History Society

Find us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MISurrey
The Surrey Monumental Inscription Index is now online in the Members Area of our website:
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 06 February 15 14:29 GMT (UK)
Found them after 1812 on Ancestry
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=4772
Chertsey All Saints 1901-1912
Chertsey St Peter 1813 - 1912
Addlestone St Paul 1838 -1912

Nothing showing for Holford though
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Friday 06 February 15 14:39 GMT (UK)
I think I may have found her in the Surrey records on Ancestry. I gave up trying to guess permutations of her surname and searched for "Sophia" in 1822. (Her year of birth seems consistent as does her forename which went on through the family.)I found this: (the link is very long and may not work so I've copied the content)
Name:   Sophia Horder- I looked at the original and the surname is, in fact "Holder"
Birth Date:   10 Oct 1822
Baptism Date:   10 Nov 1822
Archive Provided Parish:   Chertsey, St Peter
Parish as it Appears:   Chertsey
Father:   Thomas Holder
Mother:   Sophia Holder
Reference Number:   CHY/4/1
The father's occupation is poulterer. Sophia married a butcher, so this may be a connection between them.
Thomas and Sophia went on to have 3 sons-William (transcribed Horder) and Thomas and Joseph (both Holder|)
It does seem possible that this is Sophia and the name is incorrect on FreeBMD. I would be interested to know what other people think.
Thank you to everyone for the very helpful links.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Friday 06 February 15 15:30 GMT (UK)
No -I 'm wrong I've just found Sophia Holder's marriage to James Cattermole on another Ancestry tree, her father's name was Thomas and the pob on the 1851 census is Chertsey (transcribed as Charley!)
Oh well, back to the drawing board! :-[
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Thursday 26 February 15 14:44 GMT (UK)
I sent for the marriage certificate, as Suzard suggested. Sophia Holford was a spinster of full age and a servant (unusual to have the bride's occupation as well as the groom's) Her father was Robert Holford, a cattle dealer. The marriage was witnessed by Thomas Holford- possibly Sophia's brother?
Her groom was a butcher son of James Morton. (I thought this was the case but it's nice to have it confirmed) He was a widower-which I didn't know.
So -I'm a bit further forward- she was definitely  Holford, had a father Robert and another relation (brother or uncle) Thomas.
All suggestions for further progress gratefully received! :) So far the Surrey records on ancestry don't have a Robert Holford.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 10 March 15 13:51 GMT (UK)
I keep coming back to your post  ;)

One for the backburner
There is an 1841 census entry H0107/ Piece   1065 Bk3 f   34 page15 in Newington, Lambeth

Martha Helford 50 Ind means bn in county (Surrey)
Sophia Helford 20 bn in County

Ancestry have transcribed it as Helfand
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Wednesday 11 March 15 14:48 GMT (UK)
Thank you Rosie-that record may be "my" Sophia. The name is certainly spelled Helford on the original so it could easily be Holford, misspelled. The year and county of birth both fit and there don't seem to have been many Sophias around then.
I haven't found any records for Robert Holford on FreeBMD so I presume he died before 1837. Martha may be his widow or an aunt of Sophia's.
So-I now have Sophia, her father Robert, as well as Thomas and also possibly Martha-but I'm not sure of the relationship of the last 2 with Sophia. I haven't found Martha on any other census or a death yet.
It's very slow but a picture is starting to emerge :)
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Monday 30 November 15 15:08 GMT (UK)
I keep coming back to your post  ;)

One for the backburner
There is an 1841 census entry H0107/ Piece   1065 Bk3 f   34 page15 in Newington, Lambeth

Martha Helford 50 Ind means bn in county (Surrey)
Sophia Helford 20 bn in County

Ancestry have transcribed it as Helfand

I thought I would post an update on this -not that I've got any further. I found an 1845 marriage in Newington for Jane Sophia Helford so I think this must be the Sophia who is with Martha in '41.

If "my" Sophia was a servant I suspect that she was in service and her details were misrecorded on the `1841 census.

I can't find any record for Robert Holford other than Sophia's marriage record. I've tried various spellings but he's still hiding!
I would have thought that a cattle dealer would be established in the area but he doesn't show up on any Surrey records, neither does Thomas. Sophia's poor mother is still anonymous too.
Possibly Sophia was born in Surrey but her family were resident elsewhere. There are other Holfords but they are scattered and don't seem to have a link to either Surrey or to Berkshire. (Sophia married in New Windsor and lived in Clewer and in Windsor.)

Any suggestions gratefully received! Jan   :-\
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: deegordon on Friday 30 December 16 12:53 GMT (UK)
Hi I am connected to this family through my great grandmother Anna Marie Morton the daughter of Sophia Morton nee Holford. Anna married an Alfred Cox and his son William Cox was my grandfather.
My brother researched this side of the family but couldn't find the Holfords and neither can I. I have a copy of the church records at the time of Sophia marriage to John Morton on 22nd of October 1844 and it clearly states Holford as the surname. John Morton was a Pork Butcher in Peascod Street Windsor. I have traced Sophia through the census records as a Morton until her death in 1913. She lived with members of the Cox family at various times after the death of John in 1863. It may be a very bad entry or a deliberate falsification of the name as i can find no trace of her except as a possible servant in Brighton in 1941. There are no records of her fathers death which would have been registered after 1837. Something is definitely not right and i have given up as its a needle in haystack and no clues. Good luck i shall watch the pages
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Friday 30 December 16 15:52 GMT (UK)
Hello Dee, nice to meet you, my great grandmother was Rosina Sophia Morton, older sister of Anne  Maria, which makes us cousins of some sort.
I agree the Holfords are elusive but I think the names are correct. I bought Sophia's marriage certificate which clearly gives her name and that of her father-Robert Holford, cattle dealer. The marriage was witnessed by Thomas Holford, presumably a brother or uncle of Sophia's.
It could be "our" Sophia in Brighthelmstone in 1841 and I think it probably is. There is a tick in the born in county column but that could very easily be an error.
On the other hand, as a servant in 1841 she may not be on the census with her proper names correctly spelled. There could easily have been an error with name, age or place of birth. She could have worked for the kind of household that called all its servants "Mary" or she could have been missed off the record altogether.
The occupation fits-a cattle dealer's daughter may easily have met the son of a butcher. Or Sophia may have been in service in Windsor -which isn't far from Chertsey, and met John there.
Unfortunately I don't know anything else about Robert. The name is relatively common and since we don't know whether he continued to live in Chertsey where Sophia was born or if he lived and died elsewhere he's impossible to track down. He may have died before compulsory registration in 1837. Sadly the marriage certificate only gives the fathers' names and doesn't say whether they are still alive.
If i find out any more I'll let you know, best wishes Jan
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: deegordon on Saturday 31 December 16 11:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Jan thank you for your reply and it looks as if we are of a similar generation. I have a burning passion to solve the mysteries that surround our forefathers. Far better than any cross word puzzle and probably like you i have a had quite a few mysteries to solve. My wife was Dee I am Gordon and sadly she is no longer with me. Her family was stuffed full of mysteries and nuts to crack. However she had little or no interest as she said these were all dead people whats the point. So I let her get on with her pursuits as she was a wonderful seamstress, lace maker etc. Nice to make your acquaintance. I have a couple of avenues but more in desperation than hope. Best Regards Gordon
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Saturday 31 December 16 15:43 GMT (UK)
Good to meet you Gordon, I'm sorry to hear about your wife and sorry I used the wrong name. Like you I enjoy solving the puzzles and knowing a bit about the history of my ancestors.
 The Mortons are from my father's side of the family. I've found his family hard to trace because they moved around a bit, generally in the home counties and London, so I'm not always sure if I've got the correct people.
My mother's family were all from Norfolk and Suffolk and a lot of them  were connected to the sea in some way, so they've been easier to find.
I have got a tree on Ancestry and I could send you a link if you are interested. Maybe we could compare notes.
Best wishes, Jan
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Paul104 on Sunday 19 July 20 09:13 BST (UK)
I hope you don’t mind my joining this discussion.  I too have been completely puzzled by Sophia Holford.  Like Gordon, I am related to Annie Maria Cox (Morton). 

Just to muddy the waters a little more, I sent for Annie’s birth certificate.  The date of birth is given as 4th November 1848, the father is recorded as John William Morton and the mother’s maiden name is given as Rolfe.  There are clearly inconsistencies here with what else is known about the family.  First, the father’s name.  That this Sophia Morton and daughter Anne (or Annie) is the one we seek seems confirmed as the address given on the birth form is 16 South Place and this is the same address recorded for the family in the 1851 census, so why is John’s middle name given as William when in 1861, the head of the same household is recorded as John T Morton?  Then there is the mother’s maiden name, Rolfe, not Holford.  I really don’t know what to think about this.  I wonder, is John’s middle name given on the marriage certificate?  Is the name Holford clearly written (I would imagine it would be as it surely appears three times)?  Do you think the registrar for the birth has made not just one but two mistakes?  Any ideas please.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Wednesday 29 July 20 15:32 BST (UK)
Hello Paul, Nice to "meet" a distant cousin! I'm sorry I didn't see this before.
I think the family in 1841,with Robert, a cattle dealer, daughter Sophia and son Thomas, all near Windsor seem likely candidates for being Sophia's family and the surname Holford being written in error instead of Rolfe.
I've sent you a PM but I've just found another piece of circumstantial evidence.
I was looking at Robert Rolfes on ancestry and found a marriage record in Chertsey, Surrey for a marriage record in 1845 for Benjamin Rolfe, a soldier, father Robert Rolfe. (it's rather spoiled by this Robert being a labourer but it's possibly another error or a change of occupation.)
Sophia always gave her place of birth as Chertsey or nearby Addlestone. I can only find Chertsey baptisms for Benjamin in 1820 and Eliza Rolfe in 1822, parents Robert and Mary Rolfe. There are other Rolfe records in Chertsey so It's definitely a Chertsey surname.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Paul104 on Wednesday 29 July 20 19:32 BST (UK)
So to sum up the state of play at the moment for anyone else who is following this topic.  All the children of John Morton and Sophia were registered with mother's maiden name given as Rolfe.  It therefore appears that the marriage certificate naming her as Sophia Holford is wrong.  If we assume that then the rest of the certificate falls into place; father Robert a cattle dealer, and witness Thomas, who appears to be Sophia's brother (see post by janfurness above).  The family of Robert Rolf (sic) is recorded in the 1841 census with Robert, his wife Ann, and three children, Sophia (21), Thomas (15) and James (six months old).  They lived in the hamlet of Dedworth, less than two miles away from Morton's butcher's shop.  Robert, Ann and Thomas are on the next census record, by then living in Mount Pleasant which seems to identify with Beaumont Cottages, Clewer Fields, Windsor.  That would put them just a couple of hundred yards away from where Sophia lived with John.

Robert Rolfe gives his birthplace as Shalford, Buckinghamshire in 1851, but there does not appear to be any such place.  There is, however, a Shalford in Surrey, not far from Guildford.  Ann, Robert's wife, gives her birthplace as Uxbridge.  Sophia gives her birthplace as Addlestone/Chertsey pretty well consistently apart from the entry in 1911 where it is given as Aylesbury.  The hunt is now on for Sophia's birth record.

Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Thursday 30 July 20 15:00 BST (UK)
Still no luck with Sophia, but I've been delving further into the Rolfes. I haven't found the 1851 census record yet, and Robert died in Windsor in the second quarter of 1857, but I have found James and Ann. James's birth was recorded in the first quarter of 1841 in Windsor-James Robert Rolfe. In 1861 he is on a census in Clewer with Ann. They are living in the household of James and Sarah Godliman, aged 44 and 42, andtheir children. Confusingly their relationship to James the head of the household is described as daughter and grandson! I haven't found any relationship between Ann and the Godlimans.
Ann died in Windsor in 1870 and in 1871 James was living as a lodger in the household of the widowed Sophia Morton! Another link. :)
I do wonder whether James was Sophia's son rather than Ann's. Her dob on her death record was 1786, making her 55 when James was born.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Paul104 on Thursday 30 July 20 18:05 BST (UK)
The 1851 census has the family living in Mount Pleasant (or Beaumont) Cottages on a footpath called Clewer Fields, between the what remains of Oxford Road today and Bexley Street in Windsor.  That means they were only a couple of hundred yards away from where John Morton and Sophia lived in South Place.  Robert Rolfe, his wife Ann and son Thomas were there as was Robert's grandson James.  As Thomas remains unmarried, I suspect that Robert had at least one other son who was the father of James.  Unfortunately, the mother's name is not given on the record at the GRO (unusually for Windsor).  I think you will find there is no link with the Godlimans (an established Windsor family; I went to school with one them!) and that Ann is living in the same house as she had in 1851 which was next door to the Godliman family.  The numbers don't tally, but there was extensive renumbering of Windsor streets around that time.  It's an intriguing idea that James was actually Sophia's son and the lack of the mother's maiden name may be evidence for that.  I've ordered a copy of James' birth certificate from the GRO so we can see the father's details; that should help.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Friday 31 July 20 11:22 BST (UK)
I've finally found the famliy in 1851-Ancestry had mistrancribed the surname as Robbe. I checked the original online, it's unclear and Robert's place of birth is hard to read-it could be Bucks or Berks. Ancestry has Thorpe Berks. (Thorpe in Surrey is near Chertsey which would be lovely!)
If James was the son of a brother of Sophia, wouldn't he be described as nephew, not lodger in 1871?
Whereas she may not have owned her relationship to her illegitimate son. A birth certificate for James seems the way forward.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Paul104 on Wednesday 11 November 20 08:20 GMT (UK)
James Robert Rolfe, born on 5th December 1840, was indeed the illegitimate son of Sophia Rolfe.  After the death of Sophia's husband, John, and that of her mother with whom James had lived since his birth, James moved in with Sophia in Edward Square, Windsor, as recorded in the 1871 census.
Title: Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
Post by: Duodecem on Wednesday 11 November 20 13:27 GMT (UK)
Our suspicions are confirmed! It would explain why none of John and Sophia's sons were named James after John's father.

I checked the GRO records for Rosina, which gave her mother's surname as Rolfe, which confirms your earlier findings. It really is a remarkable error on a marriage record. The names don't sound alike in the slightest. Perhaps Sophia sneezed as she gave her surname!

On the subject of Robert Rolfe- he gave his birthplace as "Thorpe, Berkshire" on the 1851 census. There isn't a Thorpe in Berkshire. The most likely place was Thorpe, near Egham, Surrey, 2 miles from Addlestone near Chertsey where Sophia was born.
Free Reg has the following baptism:
15 Aug 1784 • Egham,Surrey,England

15 Aug 1784 Person forename Robert Person sex M Father forename Robert Mother forename Ann Father surname ROLPH Mother surname ROLPH Notes Born 6 Aug.

In 1783 in Egham, Robert Rolf married Ann Tarant.

As I mentioned before there are other Rolf/e records in Chertsey and Egham, so it seems likely that was where Robert Rolfe was born and where he lived until Sophia's birth in 1822.