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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: CHERAN on Sunday 01 February 15 21:32 GMT (UK)
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I amtrying to trace back info on
WALKER David who marries Charlotte Clementina Clement 1 August 1853...
A Daughter Jane Charlotte born c1842 or 1844, christened 15 Aug 1853 at Deptford, left London 27 Sep 1853 and arrived on the Ameer at Port Phillip (Victoria Aus) 2 Feb 1854 when ages are given as Charlotte 33, David 39 and Jane 8.
David & Charlotte marry a few weeks before on 1 Aug 1853 St Lukes Charlton his father = Matthew Walker and Her father = William Clement....
David is a Widow and Charlotte is Spinster....
Is it possible to try and find David and Charlotte on the 1841 census and 1851 census.... I think he is born 1810 in Newcastle on Tyne and Charlotte is born C 1820 Lewisham...
I can't find a previous marriage for David but wonder if Jane Charlotte is a daughter from his first wife or Charlotte's daughter???
Any help would be much appreciated....
Ps Jane Charlotte marries George Birkett in Victoria Aus. about 1858.....
Cheran 8)
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Have you any idea what David's occupation was before immigration?
What did he do when he came to Australia?
Might help sift him from other David WALKERs ;D
Sue
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Might help:
Free BMD Marriages
1853 Jul-Aug-Sep, Vol 1d, p972
Registration District: Lewisham
Charlotte CLEMENT
David WALKER
The child, Jane, was baptised as Jane Charlotte Clement Walker so no clues there as to whose daughter she is.
I can't see any of them (with any certainty) in 1851 or 1841, nor can I identify a birth (either as CLEMENT or as WALKER) on FreeBmd which is a good enough match to be sure.
I read the age for Charlotte on the passenger list for the Ameer as 53 but........ ??? :-\ The list is not very clearly written, and the transcription gives 33.
I do see some information re David WALKER's birth but I think you have it. Happy to post if you don't.
Judith
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Have you any idea what David's occupation was before immigration?
What did he do when he came to Australia?
Might help sift him from other David WALKERs ;D
Sue
On his marriage cert it records
a Laborer and his father Matthew is Mariner... I also found a record showing a David Walker born 1810 Northumberland as a Mariner on family search but no details....
Thanks
Cheran 8)
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Is this his death?
Victoria 1880 #3994
David WALKER, 70
FATHER'S NAME: Matthew
MOTHER'S NAME: Elizabeth Gardner
If this is him then this would seem to be his burial:
Dunolly Old Pioneers Cemetery
David WALKER, 70
DEATH DATE: 9 May 1880
FreeReg has this baptism which fits:
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
All Saints, Newcastle on Tyne, County: Northumberland
BaptismDate 22 Apr 1810
Forename David
Father's Forename Matthew
Mother's Forename Elizabeth
Father's Surname WALKER
Abode: Newcastle
Father's Occupation Mar.
Notes:
4th son of Matthew and Elizabeth - daughter of John Gardner Watm. Of this parish
I don't know what "Watm." is short for. Watchman?? I assume "Mar." is Mariner :-\
FamilySearch baptism index has his birthdate as 30 March, 1810.
Judith
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Judith
that is David so thanks for all the extra bits...
I just can't find him or Charlotte in 1841 and 1851 .....
I have found Charlotte Clementina Clement Baptism 02 May 1821 and gives her birth 4 nov 1820
Thanks again still searching
Cheran ::)
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There are some on-line trees for David and Charlotte but some of them are a bit suss I think.
I should have given the reference for Jane's baptism - it's on FamilySearch and also on London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 which has the image of the register.
At st Paul's Deptford,
baptised 15 August, 1853
Jane Charlotte Clement WALKER
Parents: David, mariner, and Charlotte
Abode: New Town
Charlotte's baptism is on FamilySearch as well as London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 which has the image of the register.
At St Paul's Deptford, Kent, Borough of Lewisham
Born 4 Nov 1920, Baptised: 2 May 1821
Charlotte Clementina CLEMENT
Parents: William, shipwright DY, Mary
Abode: Victory St.
DY would be short for DockYard
There are some other baptisms which may be siblings for Charlotte. It's difficult to separate them as some of the birthdates are too close together to be from the same parents.
I'm just going to list them with in birth order. All have father listed as William, sometimes with occupation "shipwright DY" which is what is given for Charlotte's father. Sometimes the mother is listed as "Mary" sometimes "Mary Ann". All with surname CLEMENT.
Margaret, born 7 August 1817, baptised 7 September 1817
Mother listed as 'Mary Ann', living at Victory St, father shipwright.
George Bingle, born 10 July 1821, baptised 1 August, 1821
Mother listed as 'Mary Ann', living at Victory St, father shipwright.
Harriett Jane, born 20 June 1822, baptised 23 July 1822.
Mother listed as 'Mary Ann', living at Victory St, father shipwright.
Laura Betsy, born 11 May 1825, baptised 12 June, 1825.
Mother listed as 'Mary Ann', living at Victory St, father shipwright.
It is the overlap for George Bingle CLEMENT and your Charlotte which is puzzling - George's mother is listed as 'Mary Ann' while Charlotte's is plain 'Mary'
There are 2 other baptisms at St Nicholas, Deptford, both with parents William and Mary CLEMENT, but this man is listed as a labourer, so I suspect they are not the same couple especially as one of the baptisms is a week after the baptism of Margaret in 1817.
What a blessing to have your Charlotte with two distinctive forenames! ;D
Judith who is not sure if I've just muddied the waters. :-\
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Judith
Many thanks the water has got a little more muddy.....
I have found there is a will in the British Archives for William Clement Shipwright Deptford that wonder if that would shed any more light....
Thanks Again....
Would the census then have William as a shipwright in Deptford I wonder????
Cheran 8)
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UK National Archives site's will for William Clement, shipwright of Deptford is dated 1682 so it seems unlikely that it will help in this search.
There are a couple of others which may or may not be useful, as none of them fit exactly.
This one just gives his occupation as 'labourer' and wrong spelling.
Will of William Clements, Labourer in Her Majesty's Victualling Yard of Deptford , Kent
Held by: The National Archives - Prerogative Court of Canterbury
Date: 16 September 1854
Reference: PROB 11/2197/242
This one says occupation 'servant' and give a couple of alternate names. Unfortunately this chap dies too early to be on a census.
Will of William Clement or William Clements Warby otherwise Clement Warby, Servant of Deptford , .Held by: The National Archives - Prerogative Court of Canterbury
Date: 25 July 1836
Reference: PROB 11/1865/120
These wills only cost £3.30 each and are downloaded immediately, however, I'm not sure they'll help.
I cannot see any of these people on the 1841 or 1851 censuses - not any of the CLEMENT families, not David WALKER. ???
Judith
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Searhinch hard
couple of other names come up so trying to track THROUGH THEM
Mary Eliza Puckey Clement
Wm. John Leonard Clement
Henry Thos. Clement
Edward Bradley Clement
Susannah Fowler Clement
Sarah Ann Clement
Margaret Clement
CHARLOTTE CLEMENTINA 1820 (mine)
George Bingle Clement
Harriet Jane Clement
Laura Betsey Clement
This family is causing me a little grief as I can't work out whats going on
possible mariage William Clement to Mary Ann Pritchad C 1805
Cheran ??? ???
Came across this in the London Gazette 1897
WILLIAM GEORGE CLEMENT is entitled under the will of his Father George Bingle Clement (late of Rose Cottage, Park-road, Freemantle, Southampton) to a share of his residuary estate. an Order of the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice dated 8th November 1896, made in the matter of the trusts of the will of George Bingle Clement deceased Tigar v. Clement 1897 O. No. 2620 it was ordered that an enquiry be made whether William George Clement son of the said George Bingle Clement; is living or dead, and if dead, when he died, and whether he attained the age of 21 years and if so who is his legal personal representative. Pursuant to the said Order the said William George Clement (if living) or his legal personal representative (if he be dead) and all persons claiming to be entitled to the share of the said William George Clement in the said residuary estate are by their Solicitors on or before the 30th June 1897 .......................
The said William George Clement left England in or about the year 1868 for California and has not been heard of since the year 1873 when he was intending to go up country (it is believed) to the Gold Fields.—
Dated the 31st day of March 1897
Surely there could only be one George Bingle Clement!!!
wonder what you think
A George Bingle Clement poss marr Ann Stevens June qrter Southampton....
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Hello,
George B Clement is in a few censuses with his large family-,I think you must gave that.
Laura Elizabeth Clement married Edward Weobley in 1874. Her father -William, Shipwright.
Regards
Heywood
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Heywood
I can't find any of the family on the census so far.... could you possible give me some references to see if this works...
Found Laura's Marriage to "Edwin Weobley" but they would have both been fairly old to have married given their baptism dates.... ? but thanks for pointing me to this one.....
Cheran ::)
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1871 892/ 75 / 25
Laura E Clement 35 yrs Cook, servant b Deptford
In the household of George and Sarah Knight, Gravesend.
1st December 1874 St Paul's Deptford
Edwin Weobley, Corporal
Laura Elizabeth Clement, spinster. Father, William Clement, shipwright.
Witnesses Frederick Farleigh and Amelia Charlotte Gilbert
1911 indexes
Laura Betsy Weobley and Edwin in Shropshire
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1861 684/71/ 12
Park Rd, Millbrook, Hampshire
George B Clement 39 yrs Mariner b Deptford
An Clement 39 yrs
William E Clement 12 yrs
Mary A Clement 11 yrs
George H Clement 3 yrs
Alfred B Clement 1yrs
Emily J Clement 5 yrs
Ellen L Clement 3 yrs
Alice M Clement 1 yr
October 1864
George Bingle Clement -Master's Certificate
1871 1201/13/20
George is a Master Mariner
Wife is Elizabeth but is possibly the same person
Older boys missing
Two other children -Charles 8 yrs and Henry 6 yrs
1881 1223/40/17
George is 'formerly Master Mariner' - wife Elizabeth
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Free BMD death
September 1837. Harriet Jane Clement
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Have David Walker b 30 Mar 1810 Newcastle upon Tyne d 8 May 1880 Dunolly Vic' Aus. Father Mathew Walker 1764, Mother Elizabeth 1768. Wife Charlotte Clementina Clement b 4 Nov 1820 Victoria St, Lewisham d 24 Oct 1883 Dunolly Vic' Aus. children Jane Charlotte Walker 1842-1921 Deptford/Dunolly, Laura Elizabeth Walker 1857-1929 Dunolly/Richmond Vic, Martha Walker 1858-1946 Dunolly/Sealake Vic, Ellen Walker 1862-1941 Burn Vic'/Hawthorn Vic. All from Ancestry PUBLIC family tree, (Krygger , nee Stanwix). Owner Carole Krygger. A lot more history in the tree for David forebears and his descendants in Australia. (I can access all this for you or send a message through Ancestry to Carole with aim to put you both in touch, unless of course you have access to Ancestry.
This is my first post and I will check with the Forum If I can give you my email or other contact method?), I will ask the forum monitor. meanwhile I will check the post.
David
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David you will need to 3 posts and then you can send me private message if you would like exchange email addresses
Thanks for looking at the family it would be interesting to connect to the family resercher
cheers
Cheran.......
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thanks for the help with the Census Slowly getting there
I found Captain George Bingle Clement address Rose Cottage 26 Park Road Fremantle (England)
I think its Anne Clement burial 26 October 1865 Millbrook, Southampton, Hampshire
and then a marriage
Elizabeth Hotchkiss 1867 South Stoneham, Hampshire
Cheran 8)
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Heywood, i quite agree with you that there is a deal of later census information re Charlotte's siblings and, because they do not seem to appear together in 1841 or 1851 I suspect they are employed separately by then.
David, there is more than one public tree however some of the info is not borne out from the records I have seen - some discrepancies are minor eg the place of residence at the baptisms of these children is given as "Victoria St" while the baptism register image clearly shows "Victory St". (As an aside Victoria was only born in 1819 so it's hardly likely that a street had already been named for her - much more likely that the street in a naval dockyard area was named for the ship Vicotry, or for victory in another war.) However there are others which don't seem to fit at all.
And there is still the difficulty with the birth of Charlotte (4 Nov 1820), and the birth of George Bingle (10 July 1821) being only 8 months apart if the records are correct - just possible, I suppose :-\ Also Charlotte's mother's name being recorded just as "Mary"; however if George Bingle is a sibling then Mary would have been heavily pregnant at the time of Charlotte's baptism so she may not even been present.
What a bore - have to stop and cook dinner :( Will have another hunt tomorrow!
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not what ur looking for but in the 1851 census George Bingle Clements oldest two children William and Mary are listed with a Mary Stephens and shows as being Nephew and Niece to head of house that being Mary - so that marriage that was found for him could be the one
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Winston, where are these children in 1851?
It's possible that, with the men of this family involved in sea-faring occupations that they were possibly not in UK at censuses.
And, of course the perennial difficulties caused by using the same forenames in various branches of the families.
Judith
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Judith,
The children are born and living in Southampton.
In the published family trees mentioned earlier, Charlotte's parents are named as William Clement and Mary Gregory.
One tree shows George Bingle's mother as Mary Ann Pritchard - no supporting evidence. There is however a marriage for this couple in 1804 - witness Lenard Clement. ( a child William John Leonard was mentioned earlier)
Laura C is a witness to Charlotte's marriage - implies that they are related.
Charlotte's father, William us described as a clerk at that time.
However, Laura later describes her father as a Shipwright.
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Searhinch hard
couple of other names come up so trying to track THROUGH THEM
Mary Eliza Puckey Clement
Wm. John Leonard Clement
Henry Thos. Clement
Edward Bradley Clement
Susannah Fowler Clement
Sarah Ann Clement
Margaret Clement
CHARLOTTE CLEMENTINA 1820 (mine)
George Bingle Clement
Harriet Jane Clement
Laura Betsey Clement
This family is causing me a little grief as I can't work out whats going on
possible mariage William Clement to Mary Ann Pritchad C 1805
This perhaps adds nothing except more work and confusion :-\
Looking at the middle names above.
Puckey
John Puckey is a shipwright in Deptford. He dies 1789 - there is a will but very hard to read.
Mary Puckey dies 1805.
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I am totally confused now....
from Judith's research looks like Charlotte's father is recorded as a Shipwright as well
so the ? for me is is it two different families both with William and Mary Ann? or William and Mary
Would it possible to find Charlotte's death record in Australia to see if her mother's name is recorded...
She died 28 October 1883 Dunolly Victoria Australia....
to add to my confusion I now have a few more children try and fit into the picture but they look like family name is "Clemens" but then again Geoge Bingle gets "Clemens"on one record I found so the mystery continues...
Mary Ann 4 Apr 1813,
Elizabeth 19 Jun 1814,
Eliza 22 Mar 1818,
Marian 27 Sep 1819,
Charlotte Clementine 2 May 1821 - 24 Oct 1883,
Sarah Jane 23 Mar 1823
Cheran ??? ???
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Yes, I have seen those earlier children and looks to be the same parents.
As I said earlier, Laura was a witness to Charlotte's marriage which links them.
You have the addresses at baptism which links the children.
I don't know about judb's research but Charlotte's father is a clerk on her marriage but a shipwright on baptism.
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I looked up Charlotte's death..... Parents are unknown so thats no help but Go the burial date at least...
::) Cheran
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I believe there are two William Clement families one based mainly in Deptford and the other in Shoreditch.
The following are children I found on Ancestry records BMD,s UK including Parish
All recorded at St Paul Deptford with Father William Clement and Mother Mary Ann
Eliza Ann, b. 1801, bap 24 May 1824 (No mistake, and no Father shown. Index Record)
Mary Eliza Puckey b.13 May 1805, bap 3 Jun 1805 (Index record)
William John Leonard bap 1 Sept 1806 Butt Lane Parish Record - (b. 11 Aug 1806 Index Record)
Edward Bradley bap 27 Jan 1811 Butt Lane Parish Record - (b. 20 Aug 1810 Index Record)
Susanna Fowler bap 28 Feb 1813 Charles St, Parish Record - (b. 28 Jan 1813 Index Record)
Sarah Ann bap 16 July 1815 Victory St, Parish Record - (b. 5 June 1815 Index Record)
Margaret bap 7 Sept 1817 Victory St, Parish Record - (b. 7 Aug 1817 Index Record)
George Bingle bap 1 Aug 1821 Victory St, Parish Record - (b. 18 July 1821 Index Record)
Charlotte Christina bap 2 May 1821 b. 4 Nov 1820 Victory St, Parish Record
Harriet Jane bap 23 July 1823 Victory St, Parish Record - (b. 28 June 1823 Index Record)
Laura Betsy bap 11 May 1826 b. 12 June 1826 Index Record
All Records at St Leonards Shoreditch Father William Clement Mother Mary
Ann bap 18 Mar 1804 b. 15 Feb 1804 of Haggerstons Index Record
Sarah bap 2 Sept 1806 b. 1 Oct 1806 died 20 Nov 1806 Index Record
Richard bap 12 Jan 1808 b 17 Dec 1807 Haggerstons Parish Record
Thomas bap 22 Dec 1810 Sept 1810 b 6 Sept 1810 Haggerstons Parish Record
The following mostly from Index Records Still Willam and Mary Shoreditch
Emma 10 Dec 1812
Richard 25 Jan 1813
Mary 9 Nov 1814
James 10 Aug 1817 (William and Mary St Nicholas Deptford Index Record)
William 10 Aug 1817 (William and Mary St Nicholas Deptford Index Record)
I plumb for Deptford due to Charlotte birth etc. I agree with Wife of William as Mary Ann Prichard. A lot of this agees with others. But still muddy.
Will now try to uncover marriages and then Census records
David
David
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Hi David,
The searches to date have been re the Deptford family. The Shoreditch family do not seem to be connected.
Regards
Heywood
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Thanks for all the efforts to try and piece this family together .....
Eliza Ann, b. 1801, bap 24 May 1824 I am not sure how Eliza fits in
Mary Eliza Puckey b.13 May 1805, bap 3 Jun 1805
William John Leonard bap 1 Sept 1806 Butt Lane Parish Record -
Edward Bradley bap 27 Jan 1811 Butt Lane Parish Record -
Susanna Fowler bap 28 Feb 1813 Charles St, Parish Record -
Sarah Ann bap 16 July 1815 Victory St, Parish Record -
Margaret bap 7 Sept 1817 Victory St, Parish Record -
George Bingle bap 1 Aug 1821 Victory St, Parish Record - b. 18 July 1821 His death = 1889
Charlotte Christina bap 2 May 1821 b. 4 Nov 1820 Victory St, Parish Record I am bit worried about the name "Christina" adds another layer Her death = 1883 Vic. Aus.
Harriet Jane bap 23 July 1823 Victory St, Parish Record - b. 28 June 1823 her death = 1837
Laura Betsy bap 11 May 1826 b. 12 June 1826 her death = 1913
Still searching the early children - I am still trying to track a Baptism for a Henry Thomas about 1808.... and haven't found any more ..... ::)
Thanks and sorry for the delay responding.... I couldn't get on the website at all yesterday
Cheran :-\
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Hi again,
The name is Charlotte Clementina on baptism register. I don't know where David found Christina- an error perhaps?
Where do you have Henry Thomas?
Heywood
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10th October 1808 St Paul, Deptford
Henry Thoms Clement, son of William and Mary. Born April 19th 1808
The name is abbreviated and is transcribed as Thoms or Thos.
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thanks for this :)
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Good lists of CLEMENT births/baptisms. I can't see the name "Christina" either, at least not on the images I have access to.
I think the lists are fairly complete but have a couple of 'maybes' to add.
I would agree that the Shoreditch CLEMENT family is not relevant to this search. On-line images give their address as Curtain Rd, Shoreditch and the father's occupation as 'Cow keeper' (I think)
James and William CLEMENT, baptised at St Nicholas October 1817, have a father who is a labourer and the address is Flagon Row, Greenwich. Whether this is the same couple who were in Shoreditch till 1814 is unclear, but I think they are also not relevant.
Eliza Ann CLEMENT who was baptised on 24 May 1824 at St Paul's Deptford has, as already mentioned., only her mother's name listed - Mary Ann CLEMENT and has the word 'Base' listed under her name so Mary Ann was unmarried at the time of the birth. Address given is Crossfield Lane. There was another CLEMENT family living in Crossfield Lane - George and Elizabeth who seem to have been baptising children at St Paul's from about 1802. (The first of these baptisms that I see on FreeReg may be the mother of Eliza Ann:
Mary Ann CLEMENTS
Baptised 29 Aug 1802
Father George, Labr
Mother Elizath
Abode Church Street)
I do not see an 1804 birthdate for Eliza Ann - the on-line register image has no year date listed, and FamilySearch lists her birthdate as 1 May, 1824. However, perhaps there is another record.
Now - there is an interchange on various records of the names CLEMENT/CLEMENTS and even CLEMENS
For example, there is this baptism again at St Paul's Deptford:
Mary CLEMENTS
Born: 9 Nov 1814, Baptised: 26 Mar 1815
Parents: William (labourer), Mary
Living at Crossfield Lane
Also William and Mary CLEMENS, living at Baileys Rents? Or Back Lane, Deptford (and later nearer to Greenwich); with children baptised between about 1815 to about 1830. His occupation is consistently 'smith' or 'blacksmith' and occasionally 'balcksmith DY' spoo he was also working at the Dockyard at the same time as Charlotte's father.
Obviously sorting out marriages and census entries with so many similar names won't be easy!
At least the children of the Victory Street couple seem to have more than one forename in most instances. I still have some difficulty with the births of Charlotte and George Bingle being so close together. I think it's possible that the on-line images are not necessarily the original registers but contemporary copies (bishop's transcripts?) However they are labelled as "Parish registers". It may be worth contacting FamilySearch and see if their films are available to view as these may be from the originals. I could be entirely wrong with this, though.
Now, to be mischievous I am adding this child to the mix which will add to confusion when seeking MD or census records. I can't readily see any thing for her..............
St Anne's Soho,
Clementina CLEMENTS
Born 6 May 1821, baptised 5 May 1822
Parents: John (occ tailor), Elizabeth
Abode: St Martins
Sorry, such a long post. Judith