RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: LewisGreenfamilysearch on Tuesday 03 February 15 05:42 GMT (UK)
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Hello to all,
After a few days of frustratingly fruitless and uneducated searching I am trying a new approach. Asking real people for help. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
My Mum is searching for information on her family in Scotland and England. We are in Canada.
We know this info from a hard to read Birth Certificate.
Given name is Joan Gibson Hughes born in Glasgow, Scotland. January 28th, 1902
to Mary Hughes (nee Jenkins) and William Hughes, (General Labourer) they married on April 11th,1890 in Johnstone?, Dumfriesshire?
The certificate gives two place names before Glasgow but not very legible. Blenheim? may be one of them.
The Registry was done in the district of Dennistoun, County of Lanark on Feb 5th, 1902 (no hospital named so I assume a home birth?)
William and Mary had possibly 5 children: Joan, Nell, Jessie, Jean and Thomas
Joan (Joey) Gibson apparently was married but not to my grandfather Edward Green ( born in Sunderland on June 17th, year unknown). A family secret until shortly before his death in 1970.
Joan married Desmond Patrick Lewis on 1955 emigrated to Canada shortly after Edward Green died in Kingston, Surrey 1970. She died in Canada in 1985.
We would like to know if Joan Gibson Hughes was married either once or twice and if so if there was a divorce?
Joan Gibson Hughes/Green and Eddie Green lived in Kingston,Surrey on King Henry Rd until 1971
Any help, easy search tips or links to no cost sites would be much appreciated.
Fingers crossed!
S & J
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Welcome to RootsChat! ;D
FreeBMD is showing this death:
June qtr 1970
Kingston upon Thames district vol 5c, page 1998
Green, Edward Date of birth: 18th June 1903
Which leads to this birth:
September qtr 1903
Sunderland district vol 10a, page 662
Green, Edward
Scottish records are available on ScotlandsPeople - a pay-per-view website.
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Intriguing! ;D
Found this marriage:
September qtr 1955
Surrey, North district vol 5g, page 848
Lewis, Desmond P
Green, Joan
If that's your Joan, then it looks like she married Edward Green first?!
And then there is this possibility?
Marriage, June qtr 1951
Leeds district vol 2c, page 606
Gibson, Joan
Green, Edward
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat,
As KGarrad say Scotlandspeople www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk is the place to view Scottish records.
£7 (don't know how much in Can $ but not that much ;D ) buys 30 credits and with careful use these credits can give you access to 5 BMD or Census documents - 6 credits a record.
I have done a free search on the site for a marriage in 1890 at Johnstone Dumfrieshire between a Mary Jenkins and a William Hughes and there is one result :) . You would be able to view and download the record for 6 credits. This marriage certificate would gave you the ages of bride/groom, their addresses, their occupation, their parents names and father's occupation.
Joan's birth in the Statutory Births will also be recorded if you wanted to double check any details.
Good luck,
Looby :)
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Hi again,
Rereading your post I thought that 1955 was a bit late for a lady born in 1902 to be getting married and having children (which Joan obviously did :) ).
There is a marriage on Scotlands People in 1924 at Blythswood Glasgow between a Joan Gibson Hughes and a Ralph MacAllister. (I worked out grooms name by process of elimination on a free basic search). It may well be worth your while looking at this marriage record - Joan Gibson Hughes parents details will be recorded.
I think there is a good chance this is your ancestor - there were not that many Joan Hughes born circa 1890-1910 in Scotland.
Best wishes on your search.
Looby :)
PS. Forgot to say - free sites are few and far between especially for the period you are interested in. Scottish records are held by Scottish Goverment (Scotlands People is their website). Reliable information comes at a cost, I'm afraid.
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A big than you for your quick responses "loobylooayr" and "KGarrad"!
I realized from your responses I made a mistake in my post (my brain is spinning from searching in circles).
I said "Joan married Desmond Patrick Lewis on 1955 emigrated to Canada shortly after Edward Green died in Kingston, Surrey 1970. She died in Canada in 1985."
I meant to explain my mother Joan married married Desmond Lewis in 1955 and emigrated to Canada.
Her mother Joan Gibson Hughes emigrated shortly after the death of Edward Green in 1970. They apparently were not married until shortly before his death but we have no record of this or a divorce from Ralph McAllister.
I did find and pay for the marriage certificate for Joan Gibson Hughes and Ralph MCAllister in April 1924 which confirms the names of Joan GH parents as William and Mary Jenkins Hughes.
I also got the marriage certificate for Mary Jenkins and William Hughes which was interesting but my search of the Scotlandspeople site for them has left me loopy. I cannot find records for Ralph McAllister or Joan Gibson Hughes or their parents on either side. The results have been too broad and when I try to narrow them and buy them I was wrong. I may not be searching properly and have used almost 30 credits today alone with only the 2 accurate connections that you had already made for me to find :(
From the marriage certificate I found they lived (Mary & William) and probably worked together at the address listed as "Raehills Gardens" in Johnstone, Dumfriesshire at the time they married in 1890. He was the Master Gardener and she was a housemaid. How romantic!
I'm not sure if Raehill Gardens was on what seems to be the Johnstone of the "Johnstone Bridge" family estate which may or may not be named Raehills?
Does that make any sense?
Is there any easy way to see if their may already be a family tree started that may include this family?
I don't seem to be able to fill in the blanks between where Joan Gibson Hughes was between birth and the first marriage to McAllister or to King Henry Rd, Kingston with Edward Green.
Is there specific way to search the census and confirm who they are ? I found hundreds of Edward Green's on a census list but they are not actual links to any further information and a big pink sidebar covers the right side of the list so I can't read it all.
Bless you both for being able to navigate this puzzle. You must have amazing mind power!
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Hi
Raehills is the home of lord Annandale, chief of the Clan Johnstone. I have the honour of being his archivist.
Ian A McClumpha
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Hello IMCHAD
Thank you for reading and replying Ian. You sound like the perfect person to talk to regarding this branch of the tree! Would you be able to shed some light for me?
I have found Mary Jenkins Hughes and William Hughes listed on my Grandmothers marriage certificate with the address for both given as Raehills and Raehill Gardens.
I am questioning the following:
Do you have any understanding of what the given address means? Were they both living on the estate or just employed there? Perhaps his father also was employed there given he was a Master Gardener?
I read a Johnstone Parish history today but it was written much earlier in 1834 and does not say much about the business of running the Johnstone family home per say. It does say all in the Parish were very comfortable and free of health issues, most chose to stay on their farms and not leave for greener pastures due to the goodness and sound thinking of The Johnstone family. So I assume I would have family further back than William and his parents in this area.
When I found the names of their parents I searched the Scotlandspeople website and can't seem to locate births or deaths for any of them with any certainty.
William (journeyman gardener)or Mary Jenkins (they subsequently had 5 children Jean, Thomas,Jessie,Nell,Annie and Joan)
Thomas Hughes (Master Gardener)/ Jane Hughes
John Jenkins (carrier)/ Jane Jenkins (deceased before 1890)
Looking forward to learning more about Raehill
Thanks
Suzanne
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Hi Suzanne,
Just read your posts - pleased that you struck gold with Joan and Ralph McAllister's marriage and her parents William and Mary Hughes. As you have discovered costs can be kept low on Scotlands People when you are 99.9% sure the record is yours. We have all wasted credits ::) :) on the "maybes" !
It's interesting that the Hughes family had strong a strong connection with Raehills
I have found Mary Jenkins Hughes and William Hughes listed on my Grandmothers marriage certificate with the address for both given as Raehills and Raehill Gardens.
and yet Joan was born in Denniston area of Glasgow. I would have thought that meant either by 1902 the family had moved to Glasgow or that Joan's mother maybe had family there to go to for the impending birth. Are you sure Raehills is the address on your Grandmother's marriage in 1924?
Can you give details please of Ralph's age, occupation , parents names , address at the time of his 1924 wedding so that we can try and find out something about him and therefore what happened to him?? Death or divorce etc :-\
Looking for Joan in the period between 1924 (Glasgow marriage to Ralph) and 1970 (Kingston Surrey death of Edward Green) will not be easy - Census information is not available in Scotland or England for that period - the last Census released was 1911 - far too early for this puzzle.
But don't despair - it's amazing what Rootchatters can come up with !
For instance the 1951 marriage in Leeds that KGarrad quoted -
Marriage, June qtr 1951
Leeds district vol 2c, page 606
Gibson, Joan
Green, Edward
Have you discounted this as being your grandmother?
Finally obviously your grandmother Joan had children - your mother being one.
You are not allowed to name living or potentially living people on the site :) That is one of RC's rules. You can only name a person if you know they are no longer alive.
But do you know where and when Joan was having any children? That info will help build up a picture of where Joan was.
Looby :)
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Had a quick free basic search of 1911 Census -
there is a Ralph McAlister at Hillhead Glasgow aged 17
Please note spelling on certs and censuses can and often does vary ::) Often depends on who filled the paperwork out! This boy would be approx. 30 in 1924. Could he be Joan's first husband?
Looby
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Hi Suzanne
I have just seen you other post on the Surrey board.
I'll post this marriage as it doesn't seem to have been mentioned
Marriage June 1968
GREEN, EDWARD, spouse GREEN, KINGSTON/THS 5C 1546
GREEN, EDWARD, spouse MCALLISTER, KINGSTON/THS 5C 1546
GREEN, JOAN, spouse GREEN, KINGSTON/THS 5C 1546
MCALLISTER, JOAN G, spouse GREEN, KINGSTON/THS 5C 1546
The inference from this entry is that Joan may have been known as Joan Green for some time prior to her marriage to Edward but her surname was also McAllister from her previous marriage
I also note that the daughter born in 1935 had her birth registered in both surnames, Green and McAllister (inferring the parents weren't married but he was happy to have his name on the birth cert) but seems to have been legitimsed by a later re-registration in 1968 after the marriage of her parents.
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Hi Suzanne
I have never been able to figure out how to send a private message. I know that the rules forbid me from putting my own email address in a reply but if you do a google search for imchad you will find me.
You can see Raehills here: http://www.raehills.com/
Best wishes
Ian
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On the left, underneath the username and avatar, you will find a small document icon.
This is green if the user is online, otherwise white.
Click on that, and you will be taken to the PM system! ;D
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I have the original birth certificate for Joan Lewis XA 784159 or 11559
posted on behalf of lewisgreenfamilysearch who had click on the report to moderator button in error.
Sarah :)
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Thank you to you all for these new replies and information. I will try to answer/clarify your questions.
Looby & Ian,
Joan Gibson Hughes marriage to Ralph McAllister in 1924 was at St Enochs parish church Glasgow.
His age was given as 28 which means born 1896
occupation - Electrical engineer
address - Dover St, Glasgow
father - Ebenezer McAllister, occupation - Estate Manager
mother - Augusta McAllister maiden name not legible but could be Clark?
[The Hillhead address you gave and Dover St address listed appear to be fairly close to each other in Glasgow but the age and spelling on the Census you quoted is slightly off and would make for a greater age difference between them though that's not uncommon.]
Joan Gibson Hughes given age 22 on the marriage certificate is accurate according to dates on our death certificate ( born Jan 28th, 1902 Glasgow) and the Birth certificate viewed online confirms that date of birth, Parents listed are -
Mary Jenkins Hughes/William Hughes married April 11th 1890 in Dumfriesshire.
JoanGH's birth was registered in Dennistoun District county of Lanark.The address given is again not legible (to me) but looks like 55 "Blenheim"?, ????, Glasgow.
[William and Mary had 5 children I don't know where Joan Gibson Hughes was in the birth order so I assume they have moved within the 12 yrs before her birth in Glasgow][at least one sibling of Joan Gibson landed in Rhu/Row (Nell) and one (Jessie) in Kilmalcolm working at a house called Fairfield.]
The marriage certificate found for William and Mary Hughes connects them to Raehills Gardens given under "Usual residence" for both Mary and William on April 11th1890. Both William and his father give their occupations as Gardeners, journeyman and Master respectively.
Joan's middle name of Gibson may have come from the given maiden name of Marys mother Jane Jenkins M.S. Gibson (deceased). Her father was John Jenkins.
[The Jenkins and the Hughes families must be local to the general area of Johnstone Parish as well I assume but were not the witnesses for the marriage. They are listed as A.Macgregor -minister of Johnstone and James Bird and Mary Nicol]
Looby,
How would I find and look at the 1968 marriage you mentioned?
I haven't discounted the 1951 marriage because I really don't know how to find it to look at it
Ian,
Does that give you any of the info needed for your indexes of Raehills?
Sarah,
Thank you. Could you post the Birth certificate or PM the details for me to see?
KGARRAD & Ian
Are PM's preferable to replying to posts the way I am doing it?
* I really need to figure out how to do these quotes it would save time and might be less confusing to all of you.
Thanks again!
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The PM system is really for sharing private information, and it will only be seen by the person you send it to.
Replying on a thread means that all interested parties can read what you have written! ;D
When you read a thread, each post has, top right, "Quote".
If you click on that, all of the text will be copied to your reply, with delimiters at beginning and end.
These will be enclosed in square brackets, but I'll replace them with curly brackets so you can see what I mean!
Starts with {quote author =***, link=topic= . . . . . .}
Ends with {/quote}
You can edit out any text that isn't relevant, and add your own text after the {/quote}.
The later marriages are in England, and you have to buy the marriage certificates (from GRO) in order to see them.
You quote the Year, Quarter, Registration District, Volume and Page numbers.
This information we usually give you, and can be found using FreeBMD.org.uk
Certificates cost £9,25 and can be ordered at https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
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Hi Suzanne
Very few marriages are online after about the 1920's. Those marriages already online tend to be those from Church of England Parish registers deposited at regional archives, where those archives are working with the likes of Ancestry & FindMyPast.
You will only rarely find a register office wedding online as those are kept by the local register office. Some registration districts are working to index their holdings online but not have the complete documents to view.
As KGarrad mentions certificates from the GRO are the cheapest way of buying them and the cost does include worldwoide postage. Register offices charge more and can add postage and packing costs.
Dawn
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Thought this may be interesting to you.
1881 census Address, St, Enochs Hall, Bothwell, Lanark, Scotland,
Ebenezer McAllister, Head, Land Stewart, M. age 26 years, M. born Kilpatrick, Fleming, Dumfries,
Augusta McAllister, Wife, M. age 25 years, F. born England,
James McAllister, Son, age 2 years, born, Bothwell, Lanark,
Thomas McAllister, Brother, Commercial Clerk, U. age 22 years, Born Kilpatrick, Fleming, Dumfries,
Matthew McAllister, Brother, Commercial Clerk, U. age 19 years, born Kilpatrick, Fleming, Dumfries.
There is a marriage on Scotlandspeople 1878. Bothwell, Lanark, of Ebenezer McAllister, and Augusta Clark.
There is only one birth for a Ralph McAllister, on Scotlandspeople, years 1881. to 1899. this birth is 1893, of all places Bothwell, Lanark.
The 1861 census Address Gillshaws, Kilpatrick- Fleming, Dumfries,
McAllister James, Head, M. age 34 years, M. Farm Overseer, born Dumfries,
McAllister Mary Ann, Wife, M. age 31 years, F. born Annan, Dumfries,
McAllister William, Son, age 8 years, Scholar, M. born Cummertrees, Dumfries,
McAllister Ebenezer, Son, age 6 years, Scholar, M. born Annan, Dumfries,
McAllister James, Son, 4 years, M. born Kilpatrick, Fleming, Dumfries,
McAllister Thomas, Son, age 2 years, M. born Kilpatrick, Fleming, Dumfries,
McAllister Isabella, Daur, age 2 years, F. born Kilpatrick, Fleming, Dumfries,
McAllister Mary Ann, Daur, age 10 Months, F. born Kilpatrick, Fleming, Dumfries.
Most of the births for this couple are on Familysearch.
Parents James McAllister, and Mary Anne Graham.
What age was Mary Jenkins, when she married William Hughes, in 1890. William, age may also be helpful.
Regards,
Jonn.
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It looks to me that.
Jane Gibson Jenkins, Mary Jenkins, mother died 1875. her children were then put into a Industrial School, because they were all under ten years old, and father John Jenkins, could not look after them.
Regards,
Jonn.
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Thank you all
I am still trying to duplicate your research to verify and link things togetherand am finding it impossible! You all have mad skills! :D
John could you tell me how you found out about the industrial school Ive looked it up to no avail.
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John
Sorry I missed answering your first question regarding Mary Jenkins she was 19 on the marriage certificate and William is listed as being 26.
Hope this helps and you can share your secrets to finding this information ; )
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Hello LewisGreen,
I have sent you a message on this site, look at your messages at top of page.
Regards,
Jonn.
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Here is the Hughes, family 1881 census.
Address, 4 Alma Place, Row, Dumbarton, Scotland.
Hughes Thomas, Head, Gardner, M. age 40 years, M. born Ireland,
Hughes Jane, Wife, M. age 47 years, F. born Castle Douglas, Dumfries,
Hughes Robert, Son, Mason, U. age 21 years, M. born Ireland,
Hughes William, Son, Gardner, U. age 18 years, M. born Ireland,
Hughes Mary J. Daur, Clerk, U. age 16 years, F. born Greenock,
Hughes Patrick, Son, Scholar, age 12 years, M. born Row, Dumbarton,
Hughes Thomas, Son, Scholar, age 7 Years, M. born Row, Dumbarton.
Regards,
Jonn.