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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Westmorland => Topic started by: Jules1066 on Wednesday 04 February 15 23:44 GMT (UK)

Title: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Jules1066 on Wednesday 04 February 15 23:44 GMT (UK)
I believe my 3rd great grandfather is Thomas Devis (or Devio) who married Eleanor Mattocks at St Thomas Church in Selside, Kendall, Westmorland on 2 May 1803. Thomas Devis and Eleanor Mattocks were born around 1780 and I'd love to trace both family lines further back!  Unfortunately, I'm based in Sussex and cannot visit the Kendal Record Centre in person.

Can anyone please look-up the marriage banns for Thomas Devis and Eleanor Mattocks (1803)..print copy/take photo, and/or find Thomas and Eleanor's baptism records, and any other PR for their families. My assumption is that they are both from the Kendal, Westmorland area, or from just across the county border in Yorkshire. (Sedbergh side)

They had at least 4 children William b. 1803, John b. 1805, Alice b. 1810 and Robert b. 1817. Perhaps there were more children given the gaps in the dates...? Maybe some children were born in a different parish?

William & John were baptised in Selside, Kendal (born Forest Hall?), whilst Alice and Robert Devis were baptised in Orton, Westmorland. Although the children's baptisms took place in different locations, I've always assumed this is the same family as my 2nd great-grandfather Robert Devis (Davis) named his children Eleanor, Alice, Robert, Thomas, William..

Thomas Devis (born c. 1780) was a farmer/Ag Lab.  His youngest son, my ancestor, Robert Devis married Ann Mason from Dent (Sedbergh) in Charlton on Medlock in Manchester in 1850 and they had 6 children, including twins. The name appears to change from Devis to Davis.  Ann Mason is still a bit of a mystery as I cannot find her on the 1841 census (nor Robert !). She's listed as working as 'house servant' on her marriage certificate, and Robert is a 'labourer/carter' (for brewery in Newton Heath).

Thank you  :) :)


Jules

Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: JeanGris on Thursday 05 February 15 08:48 GMT (UK)
They seem to have had one more child:
Name:   Thomas Devis
Gender:   Male
Christening Date:   03 Jan 1808
Christening Place:   Selside, Westmoreland, England
Birth Date:   26 Dec 1807
Father's Name:   Thomas Devis
Father's Birthplace:   Of High House In The Parish Of Shap
Mother's Name:   Eleanor
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C39201-5 , System Origin: England-EASy , GS Film number: 1471811 , Reference ID: item 13

Could this be the baptism of Thomas (Snr)
Name:   Thomas Devis

Gender:   Male
Christening Date:   08 Jun 1770
Christening Place:   KIRKBY STEPHEN,WESTMORLAND,ENGLAND
Father's Name:   Hugh Devis
Mother's Name:   Alice
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C06707-1 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 97389, 97390, 97391, 97392

Alice, one of Thomas and Eleanor's children could have been named after his mother, but I don't see any children named after his father Hugh (first son named William - the usual pattern is first son named after father's father).

I don't think a parish register record will give any more information than that on the IGI with regards to Thomas and Eleanor's marriage - records say he was single on marriage on the IGI. With Pre 1837 records of marriages on the parish registers these do not name the father - they give very little detail except for names of the bride and groom, whether spinster, bachelor, sometimes but not always 'of this parish', which just means they were living in the parish at that the time of marriage.

One option for you is to visit your nearest Latter Day Saints Library and order the relevant films for a small fee, and I believe you have about 3 months to look at these.

It might also be worth looking at some of the Wills from Devis surname - there seem to be quite a lot of this family living in the Kirkby Stephen area - I'll type these up and post later - There is a Thomas yeo Kirkby Stephen (Stainmore, Forest, Wrenside) who died 1673 - could this land of his have been handed down the family over the years?  It might also be worth looking on CASCAT to see if there are any papers relating to the Devis family in the Kirkby Stephen area which might give clues.

Hope this helps, Jean
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: JeanGris on Thursday 05 February 15 09:10 GMT (UK)
I see you are online - here is a little more:

1829
DEVIS Adam manor bailiff Brough (1829)
DEVIS Ann milliner &c Brough (1829)
DEVIS Chas tallow chandler Brough (1829)
DEVIS Hannah Brough (1829)
DEVIS John yeoman Augill Head Stainmore (1829)
DEVIS Richard baker/flour dealer Brough (1829)
DEVIS Thos farmer Dummah Hill North Stainmore (1829)
DEVIS Wm farmer Ellergill (1829)

WILLS
Devis (Deaves) And, ye, Bromfield, (Crookdale) 1665 AI [135]
Jas, Brough (Stainmore) WE 1670 WI
John, yeo, Brough (Stainmore, High Ewbank), WE, 1700 W
Jos, yeo, Holm Cultram (Blackdyke), 1742 WI 579 [111r]
Margt, wid, Brough (Forest of Stainmore, High Ewbank) WE 1683 WI
Mary, spin, Kirkby Stephen (Rookby, Scarth) WE 1731 WI 581 [86]
Matthew, KirkbyStephen, (Stainmore Forest, Wrenside) WE dated 1657, 1662 W [23]
Matthew, yeo, Kirkby Stephen (Stainmore Forest, Wrenside) WE 1735 W 41 [195]
Rob, yeo, Kirkby Stephen (How Gill Foot) WE 1682 WI
Rob, yeo, Brough (Churchtown) WE 1686 WI
Rob, Brough (Stainmore, High Ewbank) WE 1691 W
Thos, yeo Kirkby Stephen (Stainmore Forest, Wrenside) WE 1673 WI
Thos, yeo, Kikby Stephen (Kaber, Rookby) WE 1750 WI 195 [22r]

WE = Westmorland
W = Will
I = Inventory
A = Administration of goods - Admon

PS It might be worth looking at the bap of Thomas to Hugh and Alice in the Parish Registers, to see if there is mention of where Hugh was living at the time -sometimes an address is added.
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Jules1066 on Thursday 05 February 15 15:06 GMT (UK)

Hi JeanGris

This has been really very helpful, thank you. Your suggestion has thrown up records for the other children.

The names, twins etc all seem to fit with my Davis line. There are so many of them, a true surprise.

I've now found:

Marriage for Hugh Devis and Alice Rudd 5.7.1769, in K.S

Baptisms for children of Hugh Devis and Alice:

Thomas Devis, bapt 8.6.1770 in K.S (my line potentially)
Philip Devis, bapt 13.3.1772 in K.S
Betty Devis, bapt 8.4.1774 in K.S
Nancy Devis, bapt 8.4.1774 in K.S
Hugh Devis, bapt 26.12.1778, Orton
Robert Devis, bapt 17.9.1781 Orton
Ann Devis, bapt 6.7.1783 in K.S
Alice Devis, bapt 28.5.1786
John Devis, bapt 26.4.1789 in K.S


Jules :) :)
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Jules1066 on Thursday 05 February 15 16:20 GMT (UK)
Added bonus today :) :)

Found in the Kirby Stephen baptism records 1741-1750 (on Ancestry Rootsweb):

Hugh, son of Thomas Devis of Wrenset 1740/41

And Alice Rudd, daughter of John, Brough, 1733

All makes sense now, as Hugh and Alice Devis christen their first son 'Thomas', who is therefore named after his father's father. (assuming it's all the same family)
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: JeanGris on Thursday 05 February 15 16:51 GMT (UK)
It is looking a lot more positive about this family.  As Thomas was probably the first born of Hugh and Alice he would inherit any land/property (if there was any) from his father.

It looks as though some property might have been handed down as with the Wills I mentioned:

Thos, yeo Kirkby Stephen (Stainmore Forest, Wrenside) WE 1673 WI.
There are also two Matthews in the Wills list who were also from Wrenside. They could be relatives.

I would have thought Wrenset and Wrenside were one and the same.

The Wills are held at Carlisle Archives, and I believe you can now request Wills from them for a small fee, so it might be worth emailing them.
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Westmoreland on Tuesday 10 February 15 08:11 GMT (UK)
Hi
I've been thro the Davis's in my database for Appleby and as you see there are differant spellings
1751   Davies   Devis   Robert   Appleby      INVENT
1628   Davis   Devis   John   Bongate Bp   Son of John   St Michaels BMD
1628   Davis   Devis   John   Bongate Bp   Father of John   St Michaels BMD
1632   Davis   Devis   John   Bongate Bp   Father of Thomas   St Michaels BMD
1787   Davis   Devis   Nelly   Galabar bp   Mother of Richard   St Michaels BMD
1787   Davis   Devis   Richard   Galabar bp   Son of Rich & Nelly   St Michaels BMD
1787   Davis   Devis   Richard   Galabar bp   Father of Richard   St Michaels BMD
1787   Davis   Devis   Richard   Galabar bp   Carpenter   St Michaels BMD
Hope theres some help in this
regards
Westmorland
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: sillgen on Tuesday 10 February 15 08:38 GMT (UK)
Those farms on Stainmore are still there so you should be able to find them on a modern map.
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Jules1066 on Tuesday 10 February 15 09:32 GMT (UK)
Thank you. I'm going to try piece together some of the family groups with the info I've found and provided by all you wonderful roots chat contributors. Then I'll check this against the wills.

Does anyone know where I can get an hold of an old O.S. Map of this area to see if I can locate farms and villages. 

Is wrenset or wrensit a farm? Or place?

Jules
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Jules1066 on Tuesday 10 February 15 09:34 GMT (UK)
Sorry wrenside...I'm working from my phone this morning which is a nightmare as my writing ends up with typos!
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: JeanGris on Tuesday 10 February 15 11:29 GMT (UK)
I've found the following document on National Archives:

Bond in £80, 26 June 1760 Thomas Devis of Wrenside, Kirkby Stephen, yeoman and Matthew...
This record is held by Cumbria Archive Centre, Kendal
Reference:    WQ/SR/384/20-23
Description:    Bond in £80, 26 June 1760 Thomas Devis of Wrenside, Kirkby Stephen, yeoman and Matthew Williamson of Winton, maltster for payment of £40 and interest to John Shaw of Stennerskew, Ravenstonedale, yeoman, on 26 June [1761].
 
promissory note, 29 May 1772 for £3 10s. due from Cyprian Hilton to Mathew Dives;
 declaration of Matthew Dives, debtor;
 notice, 10 April 1775 of intention of Mathew Dives to apply for discharge under Act for relief of Insolvent Debtors. [See WQ/SR/384/9].
Date:    1760-1775
Held by:    Cumbria Archive Centre, Kendal, not available at The National Archives

Language:    English
Context of this record
•   24 - Cumbria Archive Centre, Kendal
•   WQ - WESTMORLAND QUARTER SESSIONS
•   Judicial Records
•   WQ/SR - Sessions Rolls
•   WQ/SR/384 - Appleby: Easter: Sessions roll
•   WQ/SR/384/20-23 - Bond in £80, 26 June 1760 Thomas Devis of Wrenside, Kirkby Stephen, yeoman and Matthew...

As Thomas Devis is a yeoman, then there should be plenty of Manorial Court Documents regarding transactions of the Devis family. Basically Manorial Court Records cover farmers/yeoman at the time, as they were copyhold tenants to the Lord of the Manor and they could not sell, pass on to their children etc any property without the permission of the Lord of the Manor - these were recorded in Manorial Court documents and they are a valuable source of information, well worth a look - for example when the father dies, the property is recorded in these documents and often passed on to the eldest son, or in some cases to all the children of the family - naming them all. Wills are also often recorded in these books. I'm not sure if Kirkby Stephen records would be held at Kendal or Carlisle Records Office. If you do a search on National Archives for Manorial Court Records for Kirkby Stephen, this should highlight all the documents and where they are held.

If you do a google maps search and put in the postcode CA17 4HZ, this brings up the property of Wrenside, which was and still is at Wrenside, Kaber, Kirkby Stephen.
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: JeanGris on Tuesday 10 February 15 12:02 GMT (UK)
The Manorial Court Records for Kirkby Stephen are held at Carlisle Records Office:

http://apps.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mdr/searches/detail.asp?SubjectID=191689&CountyID=422&FirstDate=&LastDate=&ParishName=&MDKeyword=
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: clearly on Tuesday 10 February 15 20:24 GMT (UK)
Just before you shoot off to Carlisle Archives for the Kirkby Stephen Manor Court books, ref Jeangris's earlier post, I believe these are at Kendal Archive Centre. They were deposited by Heelis and Heelis, solicitors of Appleby and are under WDHH1 and WDHH2 in Cumbria Archives own Cascat catalogue. I believe these cover the period you are researching.
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Jules1066 on Tuesday 10 February 15 20:50 GMT (UK)
Thank you all. You've been so incredibly helpful. Identifying the right archive location is always a major challenge, and you've saved me a lot of time. I live in Sussex so will need to organise something remotely. But if I do get the chance to travel up there I certainly will. All very exciting! 

Jules
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: JeanGris on Wednesday 11 February 15 08:03 GMT (UK)
The Manorial Court Records that Clearly mentions are held at Kendal Records Office - they did not come up in the Manorial Court Records search that I carried out - and these records  also cover the following document which should be of interest to you Jules:

Kaber Birkey, Kirkby Stephen
This record is held by Cumbria Archive Centre, Kendal
Title:    Kaber Birkey, Kirkby Stephen
Reference:    WD HH/23
Date:    1815
Held by:    Cumbria Archive Centre, Kendal, not available at The National Archives
Language:    English
Context of this record
•   24 - Cumbria Archive Centre, Kendal
•   WD HH - HEELIS AND HEELIS, SOLICITORS, APPLEBY
•   HOTHFIELD MANUSCRIPTS
•   Inclosure awards and related papers
•   WD HH/23 - Kaber Birkey, Kirkby Stephen

This document refers to land including the land at Kaber when it was enclosed in 1815, and there should be documents mentioning the land awarded (in acres, roods and perches) to your ancestors and also a map with all the landowner's names of that area.

However Manorial Court Records come from various sources - some from Solicitors, most from Landowners (Lords of the Manor) of that time, and the link above that I posted does refer to Kirkby Stephen Manorial Court Records held at Carlisle, and these documents have not been moved, and are still held at Carlisle. Most of the records refer to the Lowther Family of Lowther, Earls of Lonsdale under ref:  D/Lons, who were the landowners of a large part of Cumberland and Westmorland. I have found that it is often the way that Manorial Court Records are held in different Record Offices - some early Cumberland ones that I have viewed are held at Kew for example.

It would make sense to view the Manorial Court Records at both Kendal and Carlisle Record Offices.  The majority of these documents cannot be photocopied because of age, I have always obtained a camera licence (not sure if it has gone up in price) which was £8/day. I seem to think that Lowther family documents cannot be copied in any way.

Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: sillgen on Wednesday 11 February 15 13:09 GMT (UK)
Might be worth contacting Kirkby Stephen Historical Society.   They are quite active and have lots of info available from members.
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: FELLSMAN on Wednesday 18 February 15 23:09 GMT (UK)
Hi going back to Thomas Devis at Selside Forest Hall is a large sheep farm in the parish of Fawcett Forest ,Selside is the church parish High House is part of forest hall farm and is in the Shap fells area. the farm extends over 5000 acres and is in 4 parishes

Cheers Fellsman

it may be worth searching the Rawes family name website they originated in this area !!! 
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: Jules1066 on Thursday 19 February 15 00:54 GMT (UK)
Information is coming in thick and fast! Thank you Fellsman.  I've just seen an image online of Forest Hall farm and read that it was purchased by Alan Bellingham in 1538 together with Gaythorne Hall in Orton. This all fits with the locations of the baptisms of Thomas and Eleanor's children. I'd jotted down something earlier on Gaythorne and must check my notes. Fantastic to see the image...the farm and surroundings have probably changed very little. Intrigued about High House....
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: FELLSMAN on Thursday 19 February 15 08:05 GMT (UK)
wrenset is a farm called wrenside now i would think
Title: Re: Thomas Devis & Eleanor Mattocks - Orton, Selside, Kendal Westmorland
Post by: JeanGris on Thursday 19 February 15 08:37 GMT (UK)
Hi Fellsman

As I posted in a message above:

If you do a google maps search and put in the postcode CA17 4HZ, this brings up the property of Wrenside, which was and still is at Wrenside, Kaber, Kirkby Stephen