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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: frirish on Saturday 07 February 15 02:04 GMT (UK)
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Need to get the Thomas Goodwins of Longston separated. There appears to be two families of Goodwins with the same names as well as one if Fenton. I have encountered a few legal documents regarding wills death dates and successors but that only made it more confusing.
So starting at the bottom the gentleman I am related to is Thomas Goodwin who was an accountant ( bookkeeper) had a brother Charles who was a potter's bailiff. Their father who I believe died in 1865 was a former pottery manufacturer. The trouble is I cannot figure out if he is the thomas born in 1785 or 1811 to thomas and Lucy Lester. And the Thomas I have in 1785 his parents were john and ann.
So if I can just sort out the accountant born Thomas bARKER gOODIN TO ELIZABETH bARKER IN 1842 (THEY HAD A SECOND THOMAS IN 1848-DID t barker die in 1872? wAS THE SECOND KNOWN AS A BARKER?
noNE OF THIS LINE MAKES ANY SENSE TO ME! hELP!!! ???
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Hi
From FreeBMD and FS it would seem there were two Thomas Goodwins that died in 1865. The first died in the March Qtr of the year and was buried 17 January 1865 at St Paul's at Edensor, Stafford, and was born c1792 and aged 73.
The second death registered in the Dec. Qtr was buried at Longton St James, Staffs. and was born c1862.
claire
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Hi
Have to admit this is very confusing :-\ . But here is what I think.
Thomas Goodwin born c1785 / c1790 (dies 1865) marries Lucy Lester. They have two sons:
Thomas born 18 June 1811 regd. 18 December 1816 (grows up to be an accountant)
Charles born 7 December 1814 regd. 18 December 1816 (grows up to be the potters Bailiff)
Records found in the Non Conformist registers.
claire
Hope this makes sense :)
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Here are Thomas and Lucy in the census
1841: Little Lane
Thomas Goodwin 55 Potter ? bn in county
Lucy 60 " " "
Class: HO107, Piece 991, Book 4, Folio 17, Page 27, Line 18.
1851 ~ Longton : Little Lane
Thomas Goodwin hd mar 64 Manager Potworks. Born Staffs. Stoke
Lucy wf 70 " " "
Class HO107, Piece 2007, Folio 339, Page 4.
Lucy Goodwin buried 23 November 1851 Longton aged 71
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1861 census Thomas has a new wife
Longton: Clayton Street
Thomas Goodwin hd 74 retired china manufacturer bn Staffs Longton
Jane wf 69 ? ? ? dealer " Lancs. Liverpool
Class RG 9, Piece 1944, Folio 43, Page 27.
claire
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Hi
I dont think Thomas Barker Goodwin is anything to do with the above family, here are his marriage details
23 Apr 1855 St Leonards Marston Staffs
Thomas Barker Goodwin bachelor agd 33 Cordwainer . Father: SAMUEL Goodwin ~cordwainer
Mary Butterworth spinster agd 30 . Father: Thomas Grandshaw ~ weaver
Witnesses: Samuel Goodwin and Mary Ann Barker Leadbetter.
An additional witness was William Goodwin, the parish clerk.
claire
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Hi
Which Thomas is yours ? Have you found him in the census so we can figure out who he is, cos' I'm still confused ;D
claire
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Hello Claire!
Thank you for wading in on this! You can tell just how confused I was - I could not explain myself properly! My apologies!
It appears there are too many Thomas Goodwins! The fellows born in 1785 and 1811 are indeed my kin. Where it gets off the rails is their death dates and whom is present at the probation of their wills. (Namely the wives don`t match) Let me get my facts straight and I will get back with some more cohesive data!
Bottom line the Barker fellow not mine!
Again thank-you for discovering that the first Thomas was also married to a Jane!
Nathalie :)
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Ok NOW I know where I messed up!
If you look at this document you will better understand this line:
These records held by Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent Archive Service: Staffordshire County Record Office
1. Title: Account of the succession in real property of Joseph Barker Goodwin of Longton, warehouse man, upon the death of Thomas Goodwin, late of Longton, bookkeeper, who died 24 Mar 1874 (Inland Revenue form No.6 for property chargeable under the Succession Duty Act)
Reference: D4452/2/5/3/11
Date: 24 Mar 1874
2. Title: Mortgage of seven messuages and hereditaments at Longton, p Stoke upon Trent
Reference: D4452/2/5/3/3
Description: Consideration: £300 491 sq yards Thomas Minshall of Longton, potters bailiff, to Thomas Goodwin the elder of Longton, gent
Date: 20 Jun 1861
3. Title: Copy probate of the will of Thomas Goodwin of Longton, late a manufacturer of china now out of business
Reference: D4452/2/5/3/6
Description: Will dated 21 Jun 1864, died 14 Jan 1865
Date: 8 Jul 1865
4. Title: Further charge on messuages and hereditaments at Edward Street, Longton for securing £150 and interest
Reference: D4452/2/5/3/12
Description: Joseph Barker Goodwin of Longton, warehouse man, and Elizabeth Goodwin of same, widow, to Mrs Mary Trubshaw of same, widow
Date: 30 May 1874
5. Title: Declaration of Charles Barker of Stone Road, Longton, potter, as heirship of Joseph Barker Goodwin
Reference: D4452/2/5/3/13
Date: 9 Jun 1874
Extent: 3 items
6. Title: Conveyance of the equity of redemption of and in a plot of land and messuages in Edward Street, Longton, p Stoke upon Trent
Reference: D4452/2/5/3/15
Description: Consideration: £66 13s 4d + £133 6s 8d Joseph Barker Goodwin and Elizabeth Goodwin to George Bennion of Longton, innkeeper
Date: 28 Sep 1876
So Thomas born in 1811, potter died 1865. Heir Thomas, my accountant, dies 1874. son Joseph Barker Goodwin heir.
Charles Barker Goodwin heir upon Joseph`s death presumably, but Joseph became an invalid so may have been prior to his death.
Ok it appears my Tomas the accountant married Elizabeth Barker ( no kidding) in 1865. Joseph Barker and Charles Barker had to be his sons which would make Joseph 9 at the time and Charles even younger! ( I had presumed they were his brothers- but not so.)
Now I found a thomas goodwin born circa 1811 alive and well on the 1871 census making his death in 1865 impossible. so I wondered was it the death of the 1785 Thomas... that`s where the confusion came about. And Elizabeth Barker was married to my thomas not his father!
So I need the find the death of the 1785 Thomas.
And to determine if my Thomas the accountant was indeed born in 1848 to an Elizabeth ( not Barker! )
And I have to sort out who the Thomas is that is an colliery agent on many censuses!
Believe it or not the story gets even trickier after this!
Any clarity greatly appreciated!
Nathalie ???
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Right
Charles Goodwin buried 28 Jan 1885 St Pauls Edensor, aged 70.
Thomas Goodwin is a bit more difficult born abt 1812 died in 1874 and was buried St Johns Longton, Staffs, no dates though. An unsourced 'tree' has his death date as 29 March 1874.
Will explain in next post
claire
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Hi
Still non the wiser.....yet ;D
On a list of Victorian Occupations this is what it says for an agent, accountant and bookkeeper
Agent ~ ' One who acts or transacts business for another '
Accountant ~ ' A person involved in maintenance and auditing of accounts and financial matters '
Book-keeper ~ ' Someone who looked after the accounts for businesses '
I think that the colliery agent is the accountant/ bookmaker in your family, here is his family tree as I see it
Thomas Goodwin born 1785 marries Lucy Lester ( a widow, formally married to Robert Hawley)
Their son THOMAS born 1811 marries Elizabeth BARKER on 1st November 1836 St Mary's Bucknall, Staffs
Thomas GOODWIN (born 1811) and Elizabeth BARKER have the following children
Joseph Barker Goodwin bapt. 7 May 1837
John Goodwin bapt. 14 Aug 1839
Elizabeth bn. c1844
Emma bn 1846
THOMAS BARKER GOODWIN born July 1848 died 1912
Mary Ann bn 1850
The questions you ask ~
' the death of the 1785 Thomas Goodwin ' ~ this is the death you have in 1865 ~ probate record gives date of death and names his sons ~ Thomas and Charles
' Thomas the accountant was indeed born in 1848 ' ~ NO , Thomas the accountant/book-keeper/Agent was born 1811 and died 24 March 1874.
********************************************************************
Thomas Goodwin ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Lucy Lester
(1785 ? - 1865) : (1780-1851)
~
Thomas Goodwin ~ Elizabeth Barker Charles Goodwin
(1811-1874) (1815-1885)
~
Joseph Barker Goodwin 1837-1884
THOMAS BARKER GOODWIN 1848 -1912
Does this make sense ?
claire
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It did occur to me the colliery agent might have been the accountant-but I wondered why he would be in the coal business when his father was a china manufacturer...
Now that sort of agent would travel be a part of his job description do you think...
It all makes sense now! Thank you so much ! ;D
Thomas and Liz Barker also had Thomas barker born in 1842 but he died the same year.
When the Thomas in 1848 was born he did not have the name Barker attached at least not in the GRO. Where did you find the Barker listed.. They also had a Charles Barker in 1852. ( Don`t you find it odd John born in Trentham is not a Barker...)
I need to know who Thomas Barker born in 1848 married. And unfortunately there are too many choices. I was told it was in 1865 to an Elizabeth Barker but I am doubtful now! His occupation is key.
Once I have determined that I will put a spanner in the works! Oh Goody! ;)
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From parish records - burial entries, via FindMyPast:
St John, Lane End, Longton = Thomas Goodwin of Longton, buried 29 March 1874 aged 62. From your will reference then this must be Thomas Goodwin, Book-keeper.
St Paul, Edensor = Thomas Goodwin of Clayton Street, buried 17 January 1865 aged 73. From your will reference then this must be Thomas Goodwin, late China Manufacturer.
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Ahhh Spotted another wrong turn! Thomas who was born in 1848 did not die in 1874 he WAS 74 when he died! ::)
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HI Bumblebee! Can you believe I am still on this ancestor!! :P
Ok, you are correct so that means Thomas the china man was actually born in 1792 not 1785 as I had previously thought. And that still works out- he would have been 19 when he married Lucy. But that makes Lucy 12 years older than he! That`s quite a difference!
Thanks for your help as always Bumblebee! Very much appreciated!
Nathalie
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Hi
There is a detailed tree on Anc* that has Thomas B Goodwin born 1848 marries a Mary Ann Feeney. Wedding cert. has him without the name Barker on it. His occupation is a CLERK, and the same for his father.
claire
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Marriage 7 August 1881, Stone.
Thomas and Mary Ann look to have three children
Harry Finney Goodwin
Thomas B F Goodwin
Arthur J Goodwin
claire
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You have to remember that the age at death is the age given by the informant - NOT the person who died!!!!! :-X
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Ok Claire you are my heroine!!!!!!
I am so relieved and let me tell you why.
My great grandmother Beatrice Ellen Goodwin`s father was Thomas Goodwin accountant clerk. It was starting to look like it was the older Thomas who was her father!!! It is interesting to note that Thomas snr made his will in june of 1864, the very time my gg Ellen was born.
Thomas Jr and Ellen`s mother ELLEN Hopcroft did not manage to make it down the aisle! Ellen Hopcroft married someone else, as did Thomas junior.
Ellen Hopcroft`s married name was Rogers and that is the name she used on Ellen`s birth registration for herself but Ellen`s last name was GOODWIN in 1864. ( She married John Rogers in 1863 but the timing clearly is off for Ellen to be Mr. Rogers`He did adopt her as she turns up on the 1881 census as his daughter.
BUT here is were it gets odd.
on the 1871 census, she Beatrice ELLEN Rogers is found in Macclesfield with Ellen`s mom Ann Hopcroft- her granny.
With her is Alice Rogers born in 1869. (She was also registered as a GOODWIN as Ellen had been! Both with Rogers as the mother.)
So ELLEN HOPCROFT had both Beatrice Ellen jr and Alice out of wedlock with a GOODWIN, hopefully Thomas both times! But how odd is that... And 5 years apart! Could they not stay away from each other...
Now the fact that in 1871 the girls have both been shipped out of town to their grandmother`s is telling. (of note Granny is from OXON which explained why Ellen as an adult did not know where she was actually born when she named Hanley OXON on a census.)
Bea Ellen returns to her mom and John Roger`s in 1881 but Alice is not with them. So I have to find her.
So for the last eight years I have been searching for an Ellen Goodwin, with a Thomas for a father when she was as a child Beatrice Rogers. And solved the mystery of which ancestor had two children out of wedlock.
Now both girls were born in Wolverhampton (perhaps this was done on purpose as to get away form her home town) so how did Ellen Hopcraft and Thomas Goodwin cross paths... Thomas owned the Crown and Anchor Hotel in Longton and Mr. Rogers was a victualler. So either Thomas or Ellen did some traveling!
Any other possible scenarios...something more romantic perhaps... ;)
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Marriage 7 August 1881, Stone.
Thomas and Mary Ann look to have three children
Harry Finney Goodwin
Thomas B F Goodwin
Arthur J Goodwin
claire
Thomas born in 1848 did not get married until 1881at age 37. Must be a second marriage. And Harry and Arthur are not names used in the goodwin line. I am looking for a marriage in the 1860`s and more likely in Longton...
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Hi
1871 census Thomas Goodwin 22(potter warehouseman) living with his parents and is single at 8 Anchor Road.
1881 census Thomas Goodwin 32 (china warehouseman) is single and living with his widowed brother Joseph (potter warehouseman) at 178 Anchor Rd.
Marriage cert states he was a bachelor aged 33
claire
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Hi
Forgive me if I appear a bit dim, (my brains getting a bit frazzled with this family :) )
Beatrice Ellen and Alice Rogers born 1864 and 1869 would have been born AFTER the marriage of Ellen Hopcroft and John Rogers in 1863 surely?
Both entries on FreeBMD were as ROGERS, do you mean mothers maiden name was GOODWIN ?
Where does Thomas Goodwin come in....I'm lost :)
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Here's Alice
1881 census : Wolverhampton : Coleman Street
Richard Hopcroft hd widwr 60 stonemason bn Diddington Oxfordshire
ALICE ROGERS Gdau 12 scholar " Wolverhampton Staffs
Lilly " 7 " " "
Class RG11, Piece 2799, Folio 105, Page 29.
claire
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Hi Claire
First you are correct- Thomas did marry Mary Ann Finney late in life. And their children's names don't follow Goodwin patterns. I was told he had married in 1865- which is not correct!
Ellen Hopcroft had Beatrice Ellen in 1864 she used GOODWIN as Beatrice Ellen's family name and ROGERS as hers. Seems John Rogers knew she was pregnant when he married her in 1863. The same thing with Alice - surname Goodwin - Rogers mother's last name in 1868. (Sorry got year mixed up!)
(Here is the twisted part- a ROGERS had an Alice in 1869! If that is ELLEN's child that's just bizarre! ) :o
On the 1871 census the girls are both using Rogers while in exile with Ellen Hopcroft's mother Ann ( Richard's wife) in Macclesfield! Richard Hopcroft was visiting Ellen and John Rogers at the time.
BEAELLEN was with her mom and Mr Rogers in 1881 Alice is not with them. So I have to find her in 1881. Oops You just did! Many thanks!
Beatrice Ellen (Ellen GOODWIN- she did not use Rogers when she moved to Liverpool; probably needed a new start) married my great-grandfather in 1889 and on her marriage certificate she named her father as Thomas Goodwin Book Keeper) Then on subsequent censuses she first put she was born in Burslem, then Henley, OXON, then Oulton. She clearly was confused and little wonder. She picked places that all sounded like the actual ones she was born at / or lived in. (Bilston / Alton/ Longton)
The same month BEAELLEN was born, Thomas Goodwin snr, the Accountant, made his will in June 1864. Perhaps to add her to the will...
I also have a note about a Mr. Hopcroft at the Goodwin Potteries referring to two men as his 'sons-in-law', one being Thomas Goodwin!
There was a family story about a 'grandmother' having two children out of wedlock. It was my grandfather telling the story to one of my aunts. It was his grandmother Ellen Hopcroft. Unfortunately, she misinterpreted as my grandmother being the one in question! ( So my granddad's wife-obviously! )
Does that make more sense? ;D
Thanks for everything Claire- I could not have untangled this mess without you! Finally, I can close this 8 year brick wall. :)
PS I see there is a Lilly as well on the 1881 census with Alice and Grandad Hopcroft. Wonder who fathered her?! :P