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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Whenu on Saturday 07 February 15 20:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi all, I'm stuck while researching James McGaw.
His NZ death cert has his birthplace in Glasgow, Scotland in 1856, a marriage in NZ in 1902 to my gt-grandmother, Sarah Joyce.
The certificate also mentions another marriage, in NSW, about 1876.
I haven't been able to find this on NSW BDMs so can't verify it.
He was a ship's steward.
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There's a James McGaw immigration at Wellington in 1899 but he was a 2nd cook n the crew list. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12863-63041-88?cc=1609792
Were his parents John McGaw and Ann Rae?
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Is this your JOYCE - McGAW marriage?
NZ BDM
1905 / 2836 Sarah Abigail Margaret JOYCE m. James McGAU
Might be better to see the marriage certificate for information about the origins of James McGAW.
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Possible.
JAMES C MCCRAW TO ANNA M THOMS IN SYDNEY REF # 1431/1883
AND
JAMES MCGRAW TO AGNES FERROW IN SYDNEY REF # 1612/1886 Another spelling same marriage
JAMES MCGREW REF # 1612/1886
76 Pages of Mc's to go through as there are so many incorrect spellings in Scottish surnames because of either ignorance or the accent.
Neil ???
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There are about four births surnamed MCCAW to a couple named James and Mariannne (sometimes Mary Ann etc ) between 1878 and 1884 at Bourke, NSW.
No marriage sighted yet.
Are children listed at all on the death certificate you have?
Sue
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NSW ER 1878 BALRANALD
Peter MCGAW, Snagging Camp, Darling River, Police District Wentworth
Cheers, JM
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Is this your family?
I cannot see these McGAW births in NZ, or marriage of Rupert.
Auckland Star 22 Apr 1932
McGAW - In fond and loving memory of my dear husband, James McGaw, who passed away 23 Apr 1932..........wife S McGaw
....loving family Ethel, Rupert, Alice, Mattie
......son and daughter in law Rupert and Nellie.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19330422.2.5&srpos=5&e=-------10--1----2James+McGaw--
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Adelaide Observer 1 Nov 1890
....James McGaw suspect in death.......steward on the steamer Dickie
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/159554854?
Evening Star 14 Aug 1918
...retirement of James McGaw several years chief steward on Ngakuta
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19180814.2.38&srpos=10&e=-------10--1----2James+McGaw--
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Thanks Fifer and wivenhoe.
Don't know his parents, should get the marriage cert.
The marriage to Sarah McGaw(u) is my great grandmother with her kids.
He was a chef on ships so that would be right, though sometimes a few multiple records come up.
Edited.
Have ordered his marriage and death printout.
Sarah McGaw's children were from her previous marriage to Charles Gentry in NSW in 1892.
His son Rupert McGaw would be from a previous marriage. Think the middle name here is Charles, born 1900.
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Hi Whenu,
Your information is a bit skewed - who is Charles GENTRY?
Births in NSW
17348/1898
JOYCE, ETHEL A M G
Mother: SARAH A M
Father: Not Named
Registered at WICKHAM
36053/1899
JOYCE, RUPERT C G
Mother: SARAH A M
Father: Not Named
Registered at WICKHAM
37354/1901
JOYCE, ALICE P
Mother: SARAH A M
Father: Not Named
Registered at WICKHAM
Birth in NZ
17890/1903
JOYCE, Olive Martha
Mother: Sarah Abigail Margaret
Father: Not Named
So there are no children mentioned in James's memorial which were from a previous marriage.
Debra :)
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Charles Gentry is the father of the children you mentioned Dundee, he died in 1903, then Sarah married James McGaw.
There are no children recorded on the death cert from the previous marriage.
Disregard my previous comment about Rupert being from the first marriage, he's from the second.
He married an Ellen in 1928.
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Charles Gentry is the father of the children ........he died in 1903, then Sarah married James McGaw.
Hi there,
I have not yet located a Charles GENTRY in the Wickham district of Newcastle NSW in any year of the 1890s or into the 1900s.
I have not yet located a death for a Charles GENTRY in either NSWBDM or NZBDM in 1903
Cheers, JM
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Further to NSW birth -
37354/1901
JOYCE, ALICE P....mother Sarah A M..........Wickham (23 Sep 1901)
BDM NZ marriage
1921 / 544 GENTRY Alice Pearl m. EDWARDS Nolan Pierce
death
1974 / 29301 EDWARDS Alice Pearl b. 23 Sep 1901
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NZ Electoral Roll 1928 at 104 Victoria St West, Auckland Central
McGAW Sarah Abigail Margaret married
McGAW James no occupation
McGAW Rupert bottler
EDWARDS Nolan Pierce gardener
EDWARDS Alice Pearl married
also, 1928
45 Queens Parade Devonport Auckland
McGAW Sarah Abigail Margaret married
McGAW Olive Martha spinster
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Has anyone obtained a copy/official transcription of those NSW Births in the surname JOYCE .... as the online index does not include a father's given name, it is unlikely to be noted on the births, and the index entries suggest to me that the person registering the births was unable to give details of the marriage of the parents of the baby (when and where they married).
If the father were to register the births, even if not formally married to the baby's mum, then he is the informant. So on a different section of the NSW BDM cert he would be asked to nominate his relationship to the baby. So if Charles Gentry was the father of these babies, and if he was willing to state this when registering the birth/s, then you can have confidence that Charles was most likely the father. In that pre WWI era, the word recorded on those birth registrations may well have been "illegitimate".
However, where the parents of a baby were co-habitating, and unable to formally marry due to some impediment, then there's quite a few birth registrations where the father was the one registering the birth, and so he was able to state his relationship to the baby. It is simply that the online index (and all the usual off line indexes from past years/decades) draw the info for the headings FAMILY name and FATHER's given name from the first several columns of the registration, and NOT from the informant section....
ADD, just a gentle reminder that the surname on the NSW BDM births index is NOT drawn from the original registration for the BABY's surname. There was NO column heading (ie so no question asked of the informant) provision for the baby's surname until late 1960s (and those indexes are on restricted access). The index is drawn from the MOTHER's THEN surname .... so if she was a married woman, and (as likely in that era) using her husband's surname, then that's how the index has obtained that surname.
But, just because a bride uses a surname that she believes is her Dad's surname, that does not mean that person was her father.... :)
Sorry for the long-winded reply, but I am not a skilled wordsmith.
Cheers, JM.
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Charles Gentry is the father of the children ........he died in 1903, then Sarah married James McGaw.
Hi there,
I have not yet located a Charles GENTRY in the Wickham district of Newcastle NSW in any year of the 1890s or into the 1900s.
I have not yet located a death for a Charles GENTRY in either NSWBDM or NZBDM in 1903
Cheers, JM
Sorry, 1902 and Charles William. From the NSW BDM.
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/result?2
Have seen the marriage in Tonto NSW in 1897, but seem to have misplaced the search.
Have got those records wivenhoe off the Ancestry free search this weekend.
Found it on IGI.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Charles%20William%22~%20%2Bsurname%3AGentry~%20%2Bmarriage_place%3A%22Toronto%2C%20NSW%22~%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1897-1897~%20%2Bsubcollection_id%3A5&igi=%281%202%29
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Found it on IGI.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Charles%20William%22~%20%2Bsurname%3AGentry~%20%2Bmarriage_place%3A%22Toronto%2C%20NSW%22~%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1897-1897~%20%2Bsubcollection_id%3A5&igi=%281%202%29
Ummm ..... that's a submitted entry
Cheers, JM
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Sarah McGaw's children were from her previous marriage to Charles Gentry in NSW in 1892.
I have not found that marriage in any of my NSW BDM resources.
Is it noted on Charles 1902 death cert?
Cheers, JM
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Hi all, I'm stuck while researching James McGaw.
His NZ death cert has his birthplace in Glasgow, Scotland in 1856, a marriage in NZ in 1902 to my gt-grandmother, Sarah Joyce.
The certificate also mentions another marriage, in NSW, about 1876.
I haven't been able to find this on NSW BDMs so can't verify it.
He was a ship's steward.
Back to the original question ..... I have not found a marriage for your James McGAW in about 1876 in NSW BDMs.
Have you looked under MCKEE, MACKEE, MAGAW, MACGAW, etc etc
Cheers, JM
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Disregard my previous comment about Rupert being from the first marriage, he's from the second.
He married an Ellen in 1928.
In case you don't have it, Rupert married Ellen DYER in 1928. It isn't indexed on NZ BDM under Rupert's name/s.
10641/1928
Ellen DYER
Rupert Charles GENTRY CKA McGAW
I think the 'CKA' should be 'AKA' - 'Also Known As'
Debra :)
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I wonder if Sarah and Charles were separated before his death 1902, and Charles is not father of Olive born five months later?
Charles GENTRY d. 26 June 1902
Olive Martha JOYCE b. 29 Nov 1902 NZ birth registration NZ 1903 / 17890
if Olive is child of Charles, Sarah has gone from NSW to NZ with three small children and new baby by 1903.
NZ BDM marriage
1923 / 6160 GENTRY Ethel Abigail M. Stanley Henry EADES
they are at 104 Victoria St West, Auckland Central electoral roll 1928
Ethel A M G b. 1898............marries as GENTRY
Rupert C G b. 1899............McGAW
Alice P b. 1901............marries as GENTRY
Olive Martha b. 1902.........McGAW (see electoral roll)
I wonder if the "G" initial for given name of Ethel and Rupert is Gentry, identifying paternity where Sarah and Charles are not married?
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I wonder if the "G" initial for given name of Ethel and Rupert is Gentry, identifying paternity where Sarah and Charles are not married?
Could be so, perhaps even the "C" as well as the "G" ?
There's a death on NZ BDM for a Rupert Charles MCGAW, aged 59 years, #1959/23889 and at Archway Archives NZ there's a Probate mention for Auckland archives office.
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Was the 1902 death of Charles W GENTRY an adult or child?
The reason I ask is .... a Charles GENTRY was in Newcastle in 1924.
NEWCASTLE POLICE COURT. FRIDAY, JULY 25. (Before Mr. A. O. Butler, D.S.M.) Drunkenness.
Newcastle Morning Herald and Miners' Advocate (NSW : 1876 - 1954) Saturday 26 July 1924 p 3 Article
...... Charles Gentry, 47, on remand ..... alleged drunkenness .....
And a possible death and burial.
11333/1958 PARRAMATTA district
GENTRY Charles
Parents WILLIAM & MARTHA
GENTRY Charles c1878 d. 24 Apr 1958 aged 80
Buried Liverpool Catholic 16/ 547
(not with any family)
Seems to me this man was a likely candidate to father illegitimate children!!
Essie
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That Charles W GENTRY d. 1958 looks better. I don't really like the 1902 death..........Sarah would need to be rather busy for NSW and NZ events to fit with Charles d. 1902.
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Re concern over the 1902 death of a Charles W GENTRY, registered Catherine Hill Bay. That area was at that time a thriving coal mining district, with commercial wharf for despatch of coal to various places, including of course, Coals to Newcastle :)
There’s a birth for Alice, with parents as Charles and Bridget GENTRY registered Broken Hill in 1912 #14376
Broken Hill in 1912 was of course a mining district too.
Cheers, JM
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Ethel Gentry's marriage cert.
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Was there any requirement for NZ clergy to note if any parents of the bridal party were already deceased?
In NSW by 1899 there was that requirement.
Sometimes the clergy noted this as "dec" or 'deceased" under or next to that particular parent. Sometimes they made a mark similar to †
Cheers, JM
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One of the NEW features at NSW BDM online index is the option to search by number only. This comes in handy if there's the possibility of an entry being indexed twice or more.
May I please assure you that searching for Ethel's birth registration using ONLY the registration no. has resulted in ONLY ONE ENTRY in that index, so there's only an entry under JOYCE, and not any under GENTRY or variations on Gentry. I have just checked :) using only 17348 and 1898 and YES as the option in "Search by number only"
Births in NSW
17348/1898
JOYCE, ETHEL A M G
Mother: SARAH A M
Father: Not Named
Registered at WICKHAM
So Ethel married without needing to produce a NSW birth certificate :) Add, (in the name of Gentry) She married using her 'known by' name. :) That is not unusual, nor illegal; she was not attempting to deceive or defraud, or otherwise mis-represent herself.
Cheers, JM
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Sarah has family in NZ......?
BDM NSW births
5340 / 1876 JOYCE Sarah A parents John / Abigail Redfern
6469 / 1878 JOYCE Olive May E parents John / Abigail Waterloo
6374 / 1880 JOYCE Rubert John parents John / Abigail Waverley
Where is mother Abigail JOYCE after death of John....I cannot see death or remarriage NSW or NZ?
BDM NZ marriage
1900 / 151 JOYCE Olive May Elizabeth m . William Albert WALTERS
names of children include Abigail and Rupert
SMH 11 Aug 1891
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13834512?
funeral John JOYCE....brothers Thomas.....Matthew.......brother in law Charles WILLCOX
Evening News 9 Aug 1892
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/112601970?
...in memoriam John JOYCE...wife Abigail... children Abigail, Olive and Rupert.
Can you give details on death certificate James McGAW please?
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Here is a good possibility for the birth of Sarah Abigail Margaret JOYCE
5340/1876 JOYCE Sarah A
Parents John & Abigail
At REDFERN
A couple of siblings too
6374/1880 JOYCE Rubert (sic) John
Parents John & Abigail
At WAVERLEY
6469/1878 JOYCE Olive May E
Parents John & Abigail
At WATERLOO
Sue
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Abigail Joyce, nee Havard, died in NZ in 1928.
NZBDM document no. 1928/7066
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2fqueryEntry.m%3ftype%3ddeaths#SearchResults
James McGaw's death cert.
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Auckland Star 14 Nov 1919
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19191114.2.67&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2Rupert+Joyce--
Rupert John JOYCE d. Nov 14 1918 38 years
........wife of Cecilia, father of Jack
..........mother and step-father M A and G LEAREY
...........brother H G LEAREY
..........friends Mr and Mrs WALTERS
..........niece and nephew Ethel, Alice, Mattie and Rupert
..........sister and brother in law Olive and Will WATERS
BDM NSW marriage
1532 / 1874 JOYCE John m. Abigail HAVARD St Leonards
NZ Electoral Roll 1905 - 6 at Hobson St Auckland Central
LEAREY Abigail dressmaker
LEAREY George carpenter
JOYCE Rupert John saddler
It is possible that Sarah JOYCE met James McGAW in New Zealand, and James was not in New South Wales.
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NSW ER 1878 NEWTOWN
Thomas JOYCE of Glebe, freeholder at Redfern
NSW ER 1878 WEST SYDNEY
JOYCE
Francis, 10 South St, householder
John, 15 Windmill St, residence
Thomas, 39 Smithers St, householder
NSW ER 1878 PADDINGTON
JOYCE
John, Taylor St, Waterloo
Matthew, leaseholder, Young St, Redfern
NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
JOYCE
……….. 236 Castlereagh St
George, household, 23 Burton St
John, household, off Elizabeth St
Thomas, household, 54 Taylor St
William of Sydney, freehold, Phelps Street land
William, household, Fitzroy St
William, household, Edgeley St
NSW ER ST LEONARDS (Oops, edit to add 1878 :-[ )
None with surname JOYCE
City of Sydney Assessment Books
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books
City of Sydney’s free to search Sands Directories
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
Cheers, JM
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In memoriam for John Joyce, Sarah’s father. Placed by members of the family in 1892, but seem not to include Sarah by her name.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/112601970
The sad death by accident of John, Sarah’s father in 1891
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111982291
Sue
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Auckland Star 14 Nov 1919
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19191114.2.67&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2Rupert+Joyce--
Rupert John JOYCE d. Nov 14 1918 38 years
........wife of Cecilia, father of Jack
..........mother and step-father M A and G LEAREY
...........brother H G LEAREY
..........friends Mr and Mrs WALTERS
..........niece and nephew Ethel, Alice, Mattie and Rupert
..........sister and brother in law Olive and Will WATERS
BDM NSW marriage
1532 / 1874 JOYCE John m. Abigail HAVARD St Leonards
NZ Electoral Roll 1905 - 6 at Hobson St Auckland Central
LEAREY Abigail dressmaker
LEAREY George carpenter
JOYCE Rupert John saddler
It is possible that Sarah JOYCE met James McGAW in New Zealand, and James was not in New South Wales.
I was going by the entry on James McGaw death cert that he had had a marriage in NSW when he was aged 20, with, by the look of it 3 children.
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Re James McGAW NZ dc.... Is it possible that the marriage in NSW at age 20 and with 1 daughter 2 sons, is an answer given to a question that has been mis-understood when James was being admitted to the hospital? Is it possible that the informant at the hospital was James wife (Sarah) and she was asked about any earlier marriages, and answered about her own earlier marriage rather than the deceased's earlier marriage? Or perhaps the hospital provided the info to the registering agent (I think funeral director in NZ) and it has been mishmashed there?
Cheers, JM
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I think she is likely Sarah Abigail / Abigail Sarah and variations, and mother is Mary Abigail / Abigail Mary.
New Zealand Herald 23 Nov 1928
death Abigail LEAREY...........son in laws residence 5 Rutland Rd Devonport 74 years (b. ~ 1854)
Auckland Star 2 Nay 1930
..injury to Mr W WALTERS 5 Rutland St Devonport
BDM NZ death
1928 / 7066 JOYCE Abigail 74 years.
Looks like Abigail was not married to Mr LEAREY so no marriage to find in NSW or NZ.
...at reply #31
Rupert John JOYCE d. Nov 14 1918 38 years
........wife of Cecilia, father of Jack
..........mother and step-father M A and G LEAREY
...........brother H G LEAREY
Where is birth of brother H G LEAREY?
If this is his death NZ -
1961 / 24808 LEAREY Henry George 67 years
he is born ~ 1894?
WW1 New Zealand Nominal Roll
LEAREY Henry George, clerk, NOK mother Mrs M LEAREY 116 Hobson St Auckland
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Auckland Star 13 Dec 1920
...in Memoriam death Rupert John JOYCE d.1918.......sister and brother in law T and J McGAW....who are they?.
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Auckland Star 13 Dec 1920
...in Memoriam death Rupert John JOYCE d.1918.......sister and brother in law T and J McGAW....who are they?.
Also, Auckland Star 22/11/1929 In Memoriam,
Learey, Abigail, in loving memory of our loving mother, etc, inserted by her daughter and sil, and grandchildren, T and J. McGaw.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19291122.2.3&srpos=42&e=-------10--41-byDA---2J+McGaw--
Memorial notice from 13/11/ 1920 re death 1918.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19201113.2.62&srpos=37&e=-------10--31-byDA---2J+McGaw--
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Have received the death printout for James McGaw and this confirms three children from the first marriage. Parents are John and Ann McGaw
Also have his wedding printout which states he was widowed on the 23 of May, 1892 in Sydney.
Marriage witnessed by Olive May Walters and Rupert John Joyce.
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There’s several possibles at the online NSW BDM index :
:) of a Sarah MCCUE registered East Maitland (regional). #7837 Drills down to a December 1892 date
:) and a death of an Ada R McKAY, Newtown district (Sydney Metro) #9795 … its an October 1892 date
:) and Bridget McVAY, Parramatta #4317. Its an August 1892 date
There may be others, but not all deaths were registered. Yes, it was compulsory, but sometimes, if there had been an inquest into a sudden death, then the coroner’s office and the funeral director and the clergyman were all expecting the other office to register the deaths, and if I then add that the police were responsible for notifying the coroner, and most BDM registrations were made verbally to local deputy registrars….. well the Reg General’s Office eventually fixed the slack admin with tighter regulations from around 1914.
Cheers, JM
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Can you please scan the document, or give a complete transcription of the marriage certificate 1905 JOYCE - McGAW?
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Here you are.