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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Jonosue on Wednesday 11 February 15 11:04 GMT (UK)
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My problem is that I have been in touch with someone whose tree leads back to the same person as mine - but with different spouses!
From my tree: William Thorburn, b. Penicuik 1799, m. Margaret Sanderson in 1826, in Edinburgh. He was a currier. Their children were:
Margaret b. 1829
Elizabeth b. 1833
James b. 1833
Peter b. 1835
William b. 1837
Jane b. 1842
Agnes b. 1846
The only birth I can find (in Scotland's People) is 1799, Penicuik, parents James Thorburn and Janet Hogg.
At the same time, my correspondant's tree is as follows:
William Thorburn, b. Penicuik, 1799, m. Marion Lee in 1819 in Edinburgh Parish. He was an upholsterer.
Their children:
George Lee b. 1820
John Farquarson b. 1822
William b. 1824
Agnes b. 1824
Robert Hogg b. 1827
These names seem to follow the Scottish Naming Pattern.
I can find no other William b. 1795 - 1810 who would fit either family, yet clearly they have to be two different people.
Any clues?
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Have you followed the families through the censuses? Could Marion have been his first wife?
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For reference here's William & Margaret's family on the 1851 census: -
William Thorburn, 48 currier b Mid Lothian
Margaret 47 b Liberton
Margaret 22 dressmaker b Musselburgh
Elisabeth 18, Peter 16, William 14, Jane 9, Agnes 5 all b St Cuthberts
Jessie McIntyre, sister(?) 20 b Comrie servant
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Struggling to find a census entry with Marion :(
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Thank you for your swift reply. Yes, I have followed William and Margaret through the censuses from 1841 to 1871. William died before the next census, but his family continued to live on Rankeillor Street in Edinburgh. I have found the marriage record for William and Marion, but the other researcher has him dying in 1838. I have gone round in many small circles over this one!
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As you have census to back up your research confirming your William was born Penicuik I would say that you definitely have it right (although I note when he died the informant (his son Peter) stated his parents were William Thorburn and Janet Hogg (not James). However, that could be an error on Peter's part and certainly he and Margaret named their first son James which is the usual tradition of naming first son after his paternal grandfather.
Whereas, William and Marion (Lee) named their first son George!!
If it wasn't for Robert Hogg Thornburn being born 1827 (the year after William and Margaret married) I would have said it was possibly the same William as I guess 'Upholster' and 'Currier' are similar (an upholsterer often working with leather).
It would seem to me that you have corroborating evidence that your William was the Penicuik man but the other tree doesn't! Plus there was a William born to both couples - one 1824 and the other 1837, both of whom survived as adults. In conclusion, I would say that William, upholsterer, and William, currier, are 2 different people and that the other tree is wrong although I can understand why they reached the conclusion they did.
(I also note on Ancestry that there is a tree stating William and Marion are the couple in Polmont, Stirling in 1851 which is completely wrong. That William was a Mason and not from Penicuik!!)
Annette
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Dear Annette,
I am glad to hear your confirmation of my research is right. I am at a loss now to know what to suggest to help the other chap...I would like to help him as he is a beginner in the game. Can you think of anywhere else to look for his William? I have tried looking at all Williams born within roughly the right time frame, but of course it is so difficult to make the link as far as births are concerned until you get to the statutory births
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Afraid I can't see anything obvious for the other William either.
Annette
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I'm not sure I'd equate a currier exactly with an upholsterer.
My dictionary says that a currier 'curries or dresses tanned leather' and defines 'to curry' as 'to dress leather' or 'to rub down and dress a horse'.
An upholsterer is 'one who makes or deals in furniture, beds, curtains etc'. Obviously this could include using dressed leather to make the cushions etc, but it's not quite the same thing.
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(I also note on Ancestry that there is a tree stating William and Marion are the couple in Polmont, Stirling in 1851 which is completely wrong. That William was a Mason and not from Penicuik!!
We don't actually know for certain, do we, where the second one came from originally? We know only that his first appearance was in Edinburgh in 1819. Also, we don't know for certain when he was born. As he married in 1819 I would be looking for a birth rather earlier than 1799. Possibly around 1790-1795.
But certainly the one in Polmont isn't the husband of Marion Lee, because William Thorburn and Marion Allan had a daughter Agnes in Polmont in 1821, and all three of them are in both the 1841 and 1851 census in Polmont. Another example of why never to trust anything found on Ancestry unless it's an actual original document.
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Sorry for the delay in replying to your last post. Hospital visit the reason!
Looks like this is one of those famous brick walls. I may have to come back to it another time; or my fellow researcher may have to go back and thoroughly revise his tree, poor chap.
Thank you for your efforts on our behalf.
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For reference here's William & Margaret's family on the 1851 census: -
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Jessie McIntyre, sister(?) 20 b Comrie servant
FreeCEN lists her as servant, not 'sister'.
It does seem to me that if we are quoting the census, we should also state which transcription we have taken it from.
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I agree about the currier. I did some research and found he was the one who scraped the hair of the hides during the curing process - quite a skilled job, as the softness of the leather depended on how thin the finished product was; leather was used for making things as varied as buckets and gloves, so it was obviously important.
Thank you for the headsup on the 1851 census. I shall have a look at the original in Scotlands People. If it proves to say sister, that could open up a whole new line of enquiry!
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Thank you for the headsup on the 1851 census. I shall have a look at the original in Scotlands People. If it proves to say sister, that could open up a whole new line of enquiry!
I will be very surprised if it does say 'sister' because FreeCEN is generally far more reliable than any other of the available transcriptions. As I understand it, anything on FreeCEN has been keyed twice, by two separate volunteers from the genealogical community, who are usually people familiar with local place names. If the two readings don't agree someone else looks at the original again to try to resolve it. Remaining queries are annotated in the transcription.
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Just downloaded the original from Scotlands People, and it definitely says 'servant.' I am a bit disappointed. I saw a whole new avenue of possibilities opening up!
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Hi
Have you checked to see if there is a Will for William, this may mention his children
Margp
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Hi
On SP there is a Death Record 16/4/1841 for
Marion Lee wife of William Thorburn occ Upholsterer
Margp
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On SP there is a Death Record 16/4/1841 for Marion Lee wife of William Thorburn occ Upholsterer
Therefore Marion had died before the 1841 census on 7 June 1841, but William ought to be there unless he died within 6 weeks or so after his wife, in which case one would expect to find his death too.
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The 'other Thorburn Tree' has that date for Marion, and a date of 17 Dec 1838 for William, which would explain why they don't feature in any of the censuses. I will try for 'my'William's will, although I have a suspicion I may have already done that. First stop, my research notes.
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I note with interest
1841 Census: George L Thorburn, 21, painter and glazier journeyman, born Midlothian, in household with John and Elizabeth Monro at 4 Carnegie Street, St Cuthberts. Also Walter Forman, aged 12, and Andrew Forman, 7.
1841 Census: William Thorburn, 15, baker apprentice, in household of John Herdman, baker, wife Margaret Alison and children.
1841 Census: Robert Thorburn, aged 14, a pupil in George Heriot's Hospital, who could be the son of Marion Lee. Do Heriot's have pupil records? Are they available for research?
Can't find Agnes b 1824.
1851 Census: Elizabeth Munro, 51, widow and Andrew Forman, son, 16 at 1 Simpsons Court.
1851 Census: George L Thorburn, 31, painter, in household with wife, children and William T, brother, 26, baker.
Marriage in St Cuthberts 18 July 1838 of John Munro to Elizabeth Thorburn or Fornan, other name Walter Thorburn.
Baptism of Walter, son of Andrew Foreman and Elizabeth Thorburn, in St Cuthberts on 21 August 1829.
Death of Elizabeth Munro or Thorburn, 69, Canongate, 1865, mother's name Bold.
Deduction: Elizabeth Thorburn, born 1795/1800, married (1) Andrew Foreman and (2) John Munro, twice widowed, died 1865, parents Walter Thorburn and ? Bold.
Comment: The dispersal of the three boys in 1841 would fit with the deaths of their parents in 1838 and 1841.
Questions: (1) Is George L Thorburn the son of William T and the recently deceased Marion Lee? (2) Why would he be living with an Elizabeth Thorburn if they are not related? Coincidence?
Speculation: Elizabeth is the sister of the William T who married Marion Lee. If so, then her death certificate will provide the names of the parents of that William T.
PS There are 10 deaths of George Lee Thorburns 1855-2013, one of whom was born 1820 plus or minus 2 years. If he matches the George L in 1851 and is the son of William T and Marion Lee, I think that would almost clinch William's identity.
PPS William Thorburn, baker, 72 St Leonard Street, died 29 December 1879 and left a 9-page will. There is one match in deaths index for William T, born 1824 plus or minus one year, death registered in 1879. If he is the son of WT and Marion Lee, I think that would be sufficient evidence for his father's parentage.
Action: Get those three DCs from SP and see what they say.
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Wow, you have been busy! Thank you so much. There is a lot of information there that should be useful. You had better luck than me, who searched for wills for either William with no luck. With your help, we might finally be getting somewhere.
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Hullo. I only check Rootschat occasionally. Hence the delay.
The George Thorburn who married Marion Lee in 1819 is my ancestor. I am not convinced he was born in Penicuik. I think he was born about 1789 but the birth was not registered in the OPRs (which was quite common). Marion, born 1793 was the daughter of George Lee and Marion Farquharson. Hence all the George Lee Thorburns and William Lee Thorburns that are found through the generations. There is a lot of documentary evidence about George Lee, including his will.
George Thorburn was an upholsterer and died in 1838. Marion died in 1841 a month before the census. They had 4 sons, George Lee, John, William and Robert. The 4 sons were then all scattered in the 1841 census.
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Slight error in previous post. First line should refer to William, not George, Thorburn.
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Sorry for the delay in replying to this. I am currently on the other side of the world to my usual one, and while my iPad is marvelous, it does have its limitations.
Thank you so much for your contribution. I shall pass all this on to the 'other Thorburn' and I am sure he will be able to use it. Trying to sort t'other from which has been fascinating. At least now I am sure there were two Thorburns with the same name. :)
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H just noticed your post. I am doing William Sanderson tree. I have a Isabella TORNBURN SCOTT born 1902 She married 4 Aug 1922 RC Chapel Leith. Her parents were John Scott and Christina Lender Taylor.
Somewhere along the line the surname Thornburn must come in
Di
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Forfarian in his reply of 13 February proved fairly conclusively that the William Thorburn who married Marion Lee was the son of Walter Thorburn and Elizabeth Boll, who were married 5 August 1780. I have found various other circunstances which make it even more certain, their common occupation and where they lived. This William died on 27 September 1838 aged 49. This means that he was born about 1789, very slightly older than Marion who was born in 1791. It is not uncommon for children, especially male children not to be registered in the OPRs.