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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: heiserca on Thursday 19 February 15 03:01 GMT (UK)
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Just discovered a marriage: William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson, on 7 Sept 1811 at Paisley High Church. The marriage record says William Lockhart was a soldier.
The next known record of this family was in Canada: 1831 census shows William Lockhart at the village of St. Philippe, near Montreal, with a wife and 6 daughters: four aged under 14 and two over 14 years, their names not shown. William Lockhart's occupation was a rope-maker.
One of the older daughters is believed to be Ellen or Helen, born about 1816-17, probably at Paisley. Can anyone help me find a record of her birth or baptism? She is my great-great-grandmother. Thank you.
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Just discovered a marriage: William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson, on 7 Sept 1811 at Paisley High Church. The marriage record says William Lockhart was a soldier.
The next known record of this family was in Canada: 1831 census shows William Lockhart at the village of St. Philippe, near Montreal, with a wife and 6 daughters: four aged under 14 and two over 14 years, their names not shown. William Lockhart's occupation was a rope-maker.
One of the older daughters is believed to be Ellen or Helen, born about 1816-17, probably at Paisley. Can anyone help me find a record of her birth or baptism? She is my great-great-grandmother. Thank you.
Searching on Scotlands People for Lockhart births between 1800-1840 shows 4 births to William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson.
Archibald Lockhart in 1812
John Lockhart in 1814
Mary Lockhart in 1819
Janet Lockhart in 1824.
There is also a Jean Lochhart birth to William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson in 1822
All births were registered at Paisley High Church parish but I couldn't find a record of Helen / Ellen anywhere in Scotland between 1812 - 1830
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Thank you, davieboy. That's the problem we keep encountering: Ellen doesn't exist! No record of her found before her marriage to James Clezie at Troy, New York, 1840.
After the marriage, Ellen moved with her husband to Toronto; a child was born there in 1849, died 1852, shown in the cemetery record as "Helen Orr Clezie". Was that really Eleanor, written by someone who couldn't spell? Maybe Ellen's name was also Eleanor? But Scotland's People shows no Eleanor Lockhart born in Renfrewshire between 1813-17. I'm running out of ideas - how to find some record of my ancestor's birth?
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Hi heiserca
This search of yours have been very long I know. It has featured on many posts here on RC. You might want to link at least some of the key threads here to this new post, otherwise people will most certainly spend time repeating many of the searches that other people have already done over the last few years.
It is a complicated and so far unresolved search for you I know :-\
I am not sure how you have made the link for Helen to these possible parents. Hopefully you can explain a little more on why you think they are her parents.
Monica :)
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Thank you, MonicaL, for giving me the opportunity. Here's what we have, step-by-step:
The first indication of Ellen’s parents came from a woman (on another site) who is doing a Lockhart one-name study. She said Ellen's parents were William Lockhart & Margaret Ferguson, married 7 Sep 1811 at Paisley. The marriage record said William was a soldier.
With those names, I did searches on FamilySearch, and found further puzzle pieces:
1. William Lockhart, born about 1789, was in the 1831 census in Canada, occupation rope-maker, at the village of St. Philippe, near Montreal, with a wife and 6 unnamed daughters.
2. William Lockhart died about 1834, just as his wife gave birth to a son, Robert Lockhart. We know this because William's widow, Margaret, promptly remarried to John Cloyde, a widower, who was then shown in the 1840 census at Troy, New York. (This census doesn't name other family members but the 1850 census at Troy showed John Cloyde, wife Margaret and two of her children: Mary, born 1819 in Scotland, and Robert, born 1834 in Canada.)
3. Ellen Lockhart married James Clezie in 1840 at Troy, New York - the same place where her mother lived with second husband John Cloyde!
4. The 1840 census at Troy showed John Lockhart, born 1812 at Paisley, a son of William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson. John became a soldier like his father, 1838-39 in Canada, then he lived for some time at Lansingburgh, a suburb of Troy, occupation rope-maker, again like his father. John later moved to Chicago, as too did his mother, Margaret Henderson / Lockhart / Cloyde, after the death of her second husband. John Lockhart and Margaret Cloyde were shown in 1860, 1870, 1880 censuses at Chicago.
5. After Ellen Lockhart married James Clezie in 1840, this couple moved to Toronto, where their first daughter was born in 1845, named Margaret Clezie, following the traditional Scottish naming pattern: “first daughter after mother’s mother....”
6. Ellen Lockhart and husband James Clezie also had a son, William, born 1852 at Cleveland, Ohio, so passing along the name of Ellen’s father, William Lockhart.
7. Robert Lockhart, the youngest child of William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson, was in the 1850 census at Troy, living with his mother and step-father John Cloyde; then Robert was found in the 1860 census at Memphis, Tennessee, and the 1900 census at New Orleans, Louisiana. These censuses confirm that Robert was born Nov 1834 in Canada, both his parents born in Scotland.
Taken together, all of this circumstantial evidence satisfies me that William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson were Ellen’s parents. But I would be so much happier to find actual proof of Ellen's birth or baptism at Paisley!
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After the marriage, Ellen moved with her husband to Toronto; a child was born there in 1849, died 1852, shown in the cemetery record as "Helen Orr Clezie". Was that really Eleanor, written by someone who couldn't spell? Maybe Ellen's name was also Eleanor? But Scotland's People shows no Eleanor Lockhart born in Renfrewshire between 1813-17. I'm running out of ideas - how to find some record of my ancestor's birth?
Don't worry about the variants of Helen etc... sure by now you must have come across the Scottish range of variants for first names and spelling issues too. Good guide here www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=helen
"Helen Orr Clezie" ....
Given the likely birth year of your Helen, she likely was an early born daughter (if you are on the right tracks with this family) to William and Margaret. Have you tried following up on possible mother's names for William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson to see whether a Helen Orr may feature?
Found this entry for example with a possible Henderson surname link and location https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTJD-338 and that couple's parish marriage or banns entry https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYQ4-2NT
Just ideas really for now...
Monica
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Searching on Scotlands People for Lockhart births between 1800-1840 shows 4 births to William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson.
Archibald Lockhart in 1812
John Lockhart in 1814
Mary Lockhart in 1819
Janet Lockhart in 1824.
There is also a Jean Lochhart birth to William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson in 1822
All births were registered at Paisley High Church parish but I couldn't find a record of Helen / Ellen anywhere in Scotland between 1812 - 1830
Have you considered viewing some of these birth/christening entries? Many christening entries included sponsor names. These can often be family members that can help with supporting clues.
You mentioned naming pattern earlier. A good guide often, although not always followed/in strict order.
From the names that Davieboy mentioned above, I am wondering if some clues may be:
Archibald Lockhart in 1812 - just after William and Margaret's marriage. Possibly William's father
John Lockhart in 1814 - Margaret's father, would link up to John Henderson, husband of Helen Orr
Mary Lockhart in 1819 - A gap in births :-\ Maybe William's mother
Janet Lockhart in 1824.
That gap between 1814 to 1819 could be a perfect fit for a Helen Orr Lockhart, being named after Margaret's mother maybe.
I don't need to tell you that this is supposition so far. You have done amazingly well to make the links you have so far based on threads back to Scotland. I can see where you are going with this though. Would be good to find something to move you from a light pencil entry to something a little darker pencil at least ;)
The surname of Lockhart (and variants) is not that common in Scotland (I have researched that surname before for someone else). You have many clues and signs this far pointing to Troy and one family in particular from Paisley area which is really positive.
Monica
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Thank you again, Monica. Helen Orr sounds like a plausible explanation for Margaret Henderson’s mother! I do understand that it can only a supposition for now; but it would explain Ellen naming her daughter Helen Orr Clezie, after her own grandmother!
Margaret’s husband, William Lockhart, was identified in the marriage entry as a solider, so he might have come from almost anywhere. I found a William Lockhart baptism at Lanark on 5 June 1783, son of John Lockhart & Janet Wilson. (John & Janet were names given to two chidlren of William Lockhart & Margaret Ferguson.) And an army record shows that a William Lockhart born about 1789 at Lanark was a soldier in the 4th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. Despite the 6-year difference in age, might these two Williams be the same person? Woe is me! For the sake of future genealogists, we should alll have distinctive names.
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The plot thickens: Ellen from Paisley had a child born 1849, died 1852 at Toronto, shown in the cemetery record as "Helen Orr Clezie". Was that really Eleanor? A clue or just bad spelling?
Now found on FamilySearch a marriage at Low Church, Paisley, 23 Oct 1784: John Henderson and Helen Orr.
The traditional Scottish naming pattern was something like:
"First son after father's father, first daughter after mother's mother;
Second son after mother's father, second daughter after father's mother."
William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson named their second son, John, and apparently their first daughter, Ellen or Helen. Which would fit the pattern!
The 1784 marriage date is just about right for John Henderson & Helen Orr to be the parents of Margaret Henderson, who married William Lockhart in 1811. Can anyone determine if they were indeed her parents?
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Following up on my own post... mystery solved! I hope it might help someone else.
At Scotland's People found this record:
“Henderson - Margaret, daughter of John Henderson, Weaver, by Helen Orr, born 23rd, baptized 24th May 1792”
That explains everything! Helen Orr was the mother of Margaret Henderson, making Helen the grandmother of my Ellen Lockhart! Ellen had happy memories of her grandmother, gave the same name to her own child, Helen Orr Clezie. Now it all makes perfect sense.
Helen Orr from Paisley is my 4X-great-grandmother!
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A correction: I twice incorrectly said the wife of William Lockhart was "Margaret Ferguson" when I really meant Margaret HENDERSON, daughter of John Henderson and Helen Orr, married at Paisley Low Church in 1784.
Margaret Henderson married William Lockhart in 1811 at Paisley High Church. He was a soldier at time of marriage, having enlisted in 1807 at Barony, Lanarkshire. Military records said he was from Lanark - does that mean the town of Lanark, or merely Lanarkshire? This couple migrated to Canada before 1831, when William was shown in the census at St-Philippe, near Montréal, a rope-maker. He died in 1833 during a cholera outbreak. His widow Margaret soon remarried to John Cloyd or Cloyde, an upholsterer; they moved to Troy, New York, shown in the 1840 census; and ten dayys after the census, Margaret's daughter Ellen married James Kerr Clezie, born 1816 at Edrom, Berwickshire. John Cloyd(e) died before 1860; his widow Margaret was in the 1860 census at Chicago, Illinois, living with an adult daughter. Margaret died in 1879, buried at Graceland Cemetery, Chicago. Now I know two more branches of my ancestry: Hendersons from Paisley and Lockharts from Lanark. But I still can't find a date of birth or baptism for Ellen Lockhart, 1816-17 at Paisley. How to find the date?
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Still looking - years later - for birth or baptism record of ELLEN LOCKHART, born between 1815-17 at Paisley, daughter of William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson.
William Lockhart was born at Hamilton, Lanarkshire; he joined the 71st Foot Regiment. He married Margaret Henderson, on 7 Sep 1811 at Paisley High Church; she was a daughter of John Henderson & Helen Orr, from Paisley.
The children of the young couple were:
1. Archibald Lockhart, baptized 19 June 1812 at Paisley High Church
2. John Lockhart, baptized 10 Nov 1814 at Paisley High Church
3. Ellen (or Helen?) Lockhart, born about 1816-17, probably at Paisley
4. Mary Lockhart, baptized 13 Feb 1819 at Paisley High Church
5. Jean Lockhart, born about 1822, details unknown
6. Janet Lockhart, baptized 13 June 1824 at Paisley High Church
7. Jane Lockhart, born about 1826, details unknown
8. Margaret Lockhart, born about 1828, details unknown
9. Robert Henderson Lockhart, baptized 15 Dec 1833 at Saint Gabriel's Street Scotch Presyterian Church, Montreal.
The third child - Ellen - is my ancestor. Cannot find any record of her in Scotland. She doesn't seem to exist!
This family moved to Canada, about 1830. William Lockhart was listed in the 1831 Canada census at St-Philippe, Quebec, near Montreal, occupation: ropemaker, with his wife and 6 daughters, unnamed.
How to find some record of Ellen's birth or baptism, probably at Paisley about 1815-17?
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Not found Ellen but have found Jean she was christened 2 Jun 1822 Paisley High church like the rest Lockhart is spelt Lochhart
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Thank you, Wendy. So all of their children were christened at Paisley High Church, at least until 1822. Which suggests that Ellen / Helen should have a record at the same place! Why are we unable to find any mention of the eldest daughter in the family?
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Could be that the part of the parish book or the book its self has been destroyed through damp or lost I recall that approx. only a third if all pre 1855 BMD's have survived
Just checked and between the years of 1814 and 1819 using the surname of ** only 50 christening records for Paisley are on Scotland's People and 41 for 1819 to 1824 which is low Compared to the 11576 people living in Paisley age 15 to 30 in 1841 for the census
Not entirely scientific but gives you an idea
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Still looking for a baptism record for Ellen / Helen Lockhart, probably about 1816, daughter of William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson. Records have now been found for her siblings born in 1812, 1814, 1819, 1824, all at Paisley. But Ellen herself is missing. Some of these baptisms were at High Church but others just say Paisley, without naming the specific church. Maybe she was baptized at Middle or Low church? Unknown. Apart from FamilySearch, are there any suggestions to find Paisley baptism records between 1815-17?
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Apart from FamilySearch, are there any suggestions to find Paisley baptism records between 1815-17?
The only online source for Scottish baptism records is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. FamilySearch has an index but no actual records.
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
If it's not on Scotland's People, but it is on FamilySearch, it is unreliable and you need to follow the trail until you find the original source.
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Thank you. I've searched Scotland's People in the past without success. But I can give it another try. Maybe more records have been added? We'll see...
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Thank you. I've searched Scotland's People in the past without success. But I can give it another try. Maybe more records have been added? We'll see...
All the extant Church of Scotland and Roman Catholic registers are there, and most of the surviving registers of the Secession and Free churches.
It does look as if Ellen may have been baptised during a period when the Paisley baptism register was not being properly kept, so that no record of her baptism has survived.
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Yes, I've just finished another search at Scotland's People. For the name Ellen Lockhart, it said:
We found 0 in 0 categories
Their system is pretty good about checking alternative spelling but I manually tried: Ellen... Helen... Hellen... Lockhart... Lochhart... Lockart... Lockheart... Lockhead...
In the relevant time period, about 1815-18, it found just 1 Helen Lockhart at Dumbarton and 1 Helen Lochart at Abbotshall. Both are incorrect, wrong parents. Failed again.
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Ellen’s father, William Lockhart, was a soldier, enlisted at Barony, 1807, in the 4th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. He married Margaret Henderson, 1811 at Paisley High Church, and he was still a soldier at time of marriage. Unsure when his military service ended.
The marriage of William & Margaret - and baptisms of their children - were all at Paisley High Church, so we assume they belonged to the established Church of Scotland. Baptisms are found for 5 children: Archibald, 1812 at High Church; John, 1814 at High Church; Mary, 1819 at High Church; Jean, 1822 at High Church; Janet, 1824 at High Church. But apparently High Church records are missing between 1815-18, exactly the period when we think Ellen was born!
William Lockhart reappeared in the 1831 census at Montreal, Canada, with his wife and 6 unnamed daughters. Ellen Lockhart married James Clezie at Troy, New York, 1840. They moved to Toronto, Canada, where a child was b. 1849, named Helen Orr Clezie, after Ellen’s grandmother, Helen Orr (b. 1758 at Paisley), who was the wife of John Henderson, a weaver.
We’ve been trying since the 1970s, to find any record of Ellen’s birth. Getting closer but still frustrated...
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Just a shot in the dark - have you tried Lockie. I have Lockharts - not connected - sometimes listed as Lockie.
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I now tried Lockie too... nothing found. Someone has suggested that Paisley records in early 1800s are actually missing from Scotland's People. I don't know if that is true but it would explain the failure to find her. Highly frustrating, to find Ellen's parents and siblings, yet she herself does't seem to exist!
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Still seeking a birth/baptism record for Ellen (or Helen) Lockhart, born at Paisley about 1816-17, a daughter of William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson, who married on 7 Sep 1811 at Paisley High Church. William was a soldier in the 71st Foot Regiment at time of marriage.
The couple had sons, Archibald (1812) and John (1814), both baptized at Paisley High Church. Ellen was born after John, probably about 1816-17. She was the 1st daughter, so was named after her maternal grandmother, Helen Orr, wife of John Henderson (Ellen & Helen apparently treated as the same name.)
No record has been found of Ellen at Paisley. Nothing. I’m told that High Church records from early 1800s were badly stored in a damp location, they got wet and were destroyed by milldew. Is that true?
The parents and children migrated to Canada about 1826-30, exact date unknown. William Lockhart reappeared in the 1831 Canada census, near Montreal, occupation: rope-maker, with his wife & 6 unnamed daughters. Still no mention of Ellen by name.
Is there any hope of finding some record of Ellen? Maybe she was born at Glasgow or elsewhere instead? Scotland's People shows nothing; FamilySearch shows nothing.
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One more attempt... still looking for some record of Ellen Lockhart born about 1816 at Paisely.
I'm told that church records from Paisley have disappeared. One story says they were lost in a fire... another says they were kept in a basement and were destroyed by mildew. Does anyone know the facts?
WHEN were the records destroyed? Is there an approximate date?
WHERE did the destruction occur? At one of the churches?
HOW did it happen: fire or mildew or what?
DID any records survive? If so, where are they now kept?
Ellen Lockhart was apparently born at Paisley about 1816, give-or-take a year. Parents were William Lockhart & Margaret Henderson, married in 1811 at Paisley High Church.
The last-known record of this family at Paisley was baptism of a daughter Janet, 13 June 1824 at High Church.
Then William Lockhart reappeared, in Canada, with his family, in the census in June 1831 at St. Philippe, south of Montreal.
Between 1824-31... a blank. Any help greatly appreciated.