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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Berkshire => England => Berkshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: elissajeanette on Saturday 21 February 15 12:02 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking for information on my grandfather, with the particular aim of finding out who his parents were and tracing their history. His name was Ian Andrew Frederick Miller Crispe (our family goes by Miller-Crispe, but I've never found it hyphenated in the records I've seen). He was in Calcutta, and my dad was born in India, my grandfather married an Ethel Ablett in India (my grandmother). I think my grandfather was involved with Messrs. Hoares Miller & Co in Calcutta (possibly as an accountant), but I can't find much information on them.
I have one record that lists his birthplace as being Berkshire, and his birth year was around 1897-8. I'd really like to find his birth record and baptism record if he has one.
I now have a bunch of information from the lovely people at ww2talk.com: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/56726-desperately-searching-for-information-on-my-grandfather-wwii/ (http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/56726-desperately-searching-for-information-on-my-grandfather-wwii/) from his first marriage, potential relatives, mother's place of residence (but still not her name), wwi and wwii service records and place where he worked, but still not his mother's name, so here's hoping I can find that soon!
If anyone can help me with his birth record I would greatly appreciate it... I tried looking it up on findmyfamily, but I couldn't get anything. Perhaps he wasn't really born in Berkshire, and it was a typo :-\
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat :)
Is this marriage entry anything to do with him :-\
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJ7-6PR
Ian Miller Crisp
Age: 27
Spouse's Name Doris Murice Mcleod
Spouse's Age 30
03 Jul 1923 - Calcutta, Bengal, India
Grooms father John Fred Crisp
Spouse's Father Percy Joseph Lancaster
Marital Status: Single
Spouse's Marital Status: Widowed
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Welcome from me too! ;D
From Commonwealth War Graves, Chittagong War Cemetery, Pakistan.
Crispe, W.O.II (C.S.M.) Ian Andrew Frederick Miller, 15001639.
Royal Engineers, attd. 285 Docks Operating Coy., Royal Indian Engineers
Died 6th June 1944. Age 47. Husband of Ethel Crispe of Wombwell, Yorkshire.
B.A., B.Sc.(Edin)
Maybe the university info is a clue?
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According to his First War World record he gives his mother as his next of kin in 1915, but unfortunately just records her as Mrs M Crisp. Her address then is 6, Parvatti Villa, Poona.
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Possible father in India
John Frederick Crisp widower born 1842 married 5.4.1878 Aden Bombay Martha Hewlett born 1850 widow.
Fathers John Frederick and William Willreham
Child Sarah Ann Jane Crisp born 4.1.1879 Aden
Robert Henry 1888
Child first marriage James Thomas 12.4.1869 Satara Bombay mother Mary Ann.
Death John Frederick Crisp 1849-20.6.1903 Sewri Bombay.Image on FindMyPast
As is a possible service record which gives him as born 1842 in Birmingham.
Ciderdrinker
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Possible father in India
John Frederick Crisp widower born 1842 married 5.4.1878 Aden Bombay Martha Hewlett born 1850 widow.
Fathers John Frederick and William Willreham
Child Sarah Ann Jane Crisp born 4.1.1879 Aden
Robert Henry 1888
Child first marriage James Thomas 12.4.1869 Satara Bombay mother Mary Ann.
Death John Frederick Crisp 1849-20.6.1903 Sewri Bombay.
Ciderdrinker
Thank you Ciderdrinker, I will have to try to look into that. May I ask how you found that info? My grandfather doesn't seem to be listed amongst the offspring, though... Still, a place to start!
Hi
Welcome to rootschat :)
Is this marriage entry anything to do with him :-\
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJ7-6PR
Hi,
I'm almost certain this is him, though unfortunately the record is for his first marriage. I haven't managed to find any further information on John Fred Crispe (though the family names would seem to suggest it's definitely him - my grandfather went by the nickname John and one of his middle names was Frederick).
Welcome from me too! ;D
From Commonwealth War Graves, Chittagong War Cemetery, Pakistan.
Crispe, W.O.II (C.S.M.) Ian Andrew Frederick Miller, 15001639.
Royal Engineers, attd. 285 Docks Operating Coy., Royal Indian Engineers
Died 6th June 1944. Age 47. Husband of Ethel Crispe of Wombwell, Yorkshire.
B.A., B.Sc.(Edin)
Maybe the university info is a clue?
Hi :) Yes, sorry I forgot to mention in my original post that I've contacted Edinburgh University and they're looking into it. Nothing has come of it so far, and it's quite possible that the record wasn't kept. :(
Thank you for the welcomes! :)
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Hello
Yes the info is on Familysearch and can be seen in full at their libraries around the world.
There are also some images on Find My past apparently but that is pay to view and I haven't got that.
Looking at the index on FindMyPast John Frederick Crisp died 1903 in India is on there
as is a possible military record for a John Frederick Crisp born 1842.
A Will 1903 which should fingers crossed mention any children.
Ciderdrinker
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JF Crisps will in 1903 names
only wife Rosine Miller Crisp
Rosine's death in 1933
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGTG-7YZ
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JF Crisps will in 1903 names only wife Rosine Miller Crisp
Rosine's death in 1933
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGTG-7YZ
Also mentions daughter Ruth, son Robert Henry and son Ian, who was to have a gold necktie pin. It also says that if his wife predeceases him his estate should be used to fund the education on any each surving child up to the age of 18 and then be split equally amongst the survivors.
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JF Crisps will in 1903 names only wife Rosine Miller Crisp
Rosine's death in 1933
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGTG-7YZ
Also mentions daughter Ruth, son Robert Henry and son Ian, who was to have a gold necktie pin. It also says that if his wife predeceases him his estate should be used to fund the education on any each surving child up to the age of 18 and then be split equally amongst the survivors.
Sorry, I missed that :'(
Rosines death says she was Anglo Indian.
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Looking at the dates, if he was born about 1897 and his father died in India in 1903, I wonder if he was actually born in India and that is why we can't find a record in Freebmd?
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1881 - Salford infantry barracks
John Frederick Crisp 39 - soldier b Birmingham
Martha Crisp 30 - wife b Machester
Mary Ann Martha Crisp 14 - b Ireland
Eliza Ellen Crisp 12 - b Ireland
John Frederick Crisp 10- b Chatham
Sarah Ann Jane Crisp 4 - b Aden
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still in Salford - 1891
John F Crisp 49 - [word unclear] instructor of volunteers b Birmingham
Martha Crisp 42 - b Chester
Sarah A J Crisp 12 - b Aden
Frederick I T Crisp 10 - b Salford
Charles H Crisp 8 - b Salford
George H Smith 5 - nephew
RG12, 3221, 146, 40
something doesn't feel right - even if Sarah Ann Jane b Aden fits, where is Robert Henry b 1888
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Could this be Ian's sister Ruth (I can't see a birth reg in England)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NF3M-YKZ
it does not say her father is dead though, his occupation P W D India.
The image is on FindMyPast
She appears to be in Maida Vale, London in 1911
Worth keeping in mind :-\
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Yes definitely the wrong family
John F Crisp
Q3 1912
Age at Death - 71 (b c1841)
Registration district - Salford
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Yes definitely the wrong family
John F Crisp
Q3 1912
Age at Death - 71 (b c1841)
Registration district - Salford
I think it is probably the John F that married Martha in India though. The military records have him leaving in 1881 Manchester.
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Robert Henry's marriage?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGV5-177
Someone has posted an image of this cert on Ancestry. Robert Henry is an army captain in 1/43 Erinpura Regiment. John Frederick's occupation not stated
His wife (actually Olive) dies a year later in 1921 - probate entry says she is of Grinpura, Rajputana and died at the British Station Hospital, Mt Abu Rajputana.
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Yes definitely the wrong family
John F Crisp
Q3 1912
Age at Death - 71 (b c1841)
Registration district - Salford
I think it is probably the John F that married Martha in India though. The military records have him leaving in 1881 Manchester.
Agree - I'm fairly sure the John f who marries Martha in India isn't our man
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I'm confused - on Ian's WW1 records he gives his NOK as Mrs M Crisp - is that Martha or is it M for Miller? Ian's mother would be Rosina wouldn't she, according to the will?
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I'm pretty sure it's not Martha - she's married to a John Frederick Crisp, but whilst he is alive and well in Salford until 1912, she appears to die in 1899. That John and Martha appear to be a red herring
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Rosine Miller age 40 (father George) married John Frederick Crisp age 46 Widower - father Frederick in Poona January 1895.
There is a baptism for a Rosine Miller in Poona 1853
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGHL-PFJ
It looks as though John Frederick was previously married to Alice Ruth Myatt. (1875) Myatt would tie in with the wedding I found for Ruth Myart Crisp in England
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The free index on FindMyPast has Alice Ruth Crisp bn c1857 died 1892 Dharwar Bombay
Images are available for the marriages and deaths on FindMyPast
It would appear that JF Crisp was employed by the PWD as an accountant
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Public_Works_Department
It is quite likely that JFC was born in India. There is a Frederick Crisp who marries in 1844 who could be his father.
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I'm pretty sure it's not Martha - she's married to a John Frederick Crisp, but whilst he is alive and well in Salford until 1912, she appears to die in 1899. That John and Martha appear to be a red herring
Can't be her as Ian gives his mother as NOK in 1915. As you say a red herring.
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Alice's burial
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGTJ-8Z8
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Hello
Yes the info is on Familysearch and can be seen in full at their libraries around the world.
There are also some images on Find My past apparently but that is pay to view and I haven't got that.
Looking at the index on FindMyPast John Frederick Crisp died 1903 in India is on there
as is a possible military record for a John Frederick Crisp born 1842.
A Will 1903 which should fingers crossed mention any children.
Ciderdrinker
Ciderdrinker, is all that on Findmypast? If I got a subscription to that do you think I could access those records? Thanks for looking into this!
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You people are amazing! Thank you for going to all this effort. There is so much information for me to sift through and try to separate the red herrings from the likely family members haha. I'll keep the thread open for a little while, if that's okay - the more information the better in this case! :D
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Is all that on Findmypast? If I got a subscription to that do you think I could access those records?
Findmypast has images for births marriages and deaths in their British India Office collections. You will need to pay to view the images.
Births http://www.rootschat.com/links/01esf/
Marriages http://www.rootschat.com/links/01esg/
Deaths http://www.rootschat.com/links/01esh/
The military record for John Frederick Crisp on there is not your JFC.
The copy of the will and deceased accounts for JFC are also on there.
You should also be able to find information on both of his wives and maybe his father / grandfather
FindMyPast sometimes have some very cheap offers running for a monthly subscription. You could always do the 14 day trial but if you do ensure that you untick the auto renew box or they will take money from your account.
Rosie
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Some local libraries offer free access to FindMyPast - might be worth checking yours?
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Is all that on Findmypast? If I got a subscription to that do you think I could access those records?
Findmypast has images for births marriages and deaths in their British India Office collections. You will need to pay to view the images.
Births http://www.rootschat.com/links/01esf/
Marriages http://www.rootschat.com/links/01esg/
Deaths http://www.rootschat.com/links/01esh/
The military record for John Frederick Crisp on there is not your JFC.
The copy of the will and deceased accounts for JFC are also on there.
You should also be able to find information on both of his wives and maybe his father / grandfather
FindMyPast sometimes have some very cheap offers running for a monthly subscription. You could always do the 14 day trial but if you do ensure that you untick the auto renew box or they will take money from your account.
Rosie
Thank you Rosie! I might try the 14 day free trial subscription next week.
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Some local libraries offer free access to FindMyPast - might be worth checking yours?
Thanks KGarrad, I'll check with my Uni library and major city library just in case :)
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Very excited to come across this thread. I am related to Ian Miller-Crisp's first wife's (Doris Muriel McLeod, nee Lancaster)'s first husband, Donald George McLeod. I shall plough through the thread in due course. If anyone knows what became of him I'd love to know. I'd also like to know if Doris brought children from her first marriage (ie any McLeods) into the second one. Anyone know?
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Hi I’m related to Ethel ..she was my granddads sister. .. I’ve been doing my family tree recently ..and only just found this thread by accident.
My mother passed away a few years ago, and had written about her family and that includes the people you mentioned.
I’m still in process of high lighting info that relates to the extended family. But she recalls letters received from her aunts Ethel, and newspaper cuttings she writes about....her return. Which ship... etc. I’ll sort them all together logically for all relatives and contact you, and hopefully fill in some gaps you have. I know a little back ground too about her fathers history before he was a gamekeeper and where all that was.
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Further to that information, about Ethel and my connection, I was brought up in Wombwell, and visited her personally, at mellor rd. ... and my grandma was married to her brother hence my knowledge of her adventures, as Grandma was also in the Salvation Army, and how that all fits.
I found the information here helpful personally helpful to my search. I was a child when I first became aware of some info... it’s only now as I use written info from those who knew her that the bigger picture is expanded upon. I can confirm it was Ethel’s husband that went to Edinburgh uni.. that is confirmed in the text I have. There are two a4 folders to sort through ..I’m re reading to caterlogue each person mentioned to insert into my tree folders.permindividual.
Hope this will be helpful still if you read this .
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Very excited to come across this thread. I am related to Ian Miller-Crisp's first wife's (Doris Muriel McLeod, nee Lancaster)'s first husband, Donald George McLeod. I shall plough through the thread in due course. If anyone knows what became of him I'd love to know. I'd also like to know if Doris brought children from her first marriage (ie any McLeods) into the second one. Anyone know?
Hi Jo, Sorry for the VERY belated reply, I must have missed your comment. It's possible McLeod children were brought into the new marriage, but that connection didn't get continued after Ian's death. My aunts (Ian's children) were very young (one was still in the womb) when Ian died and they always said that they thought there were half siblings in India but had no way of knowing who they were or how to get in touch with them. They thought that those relatives may have some key documents or just family knowledge about their father that may help and it was a point of frustration or sadness that they couldn't reach out. I have found no record of children from Ian and Doris so maybe that family legend was based on Doris' children from her first marriage...
Thank you for your reply on this forum though, it confirmed some key information about Ian because I had the wrong birth date for him and looking into Doris allowed me to find record of Ian that helped me fill in some blanks. Thank you very much!