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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: sre on Sunday 22 February 15 15:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I volunteered to help a friend with his tree and have almost fallen at the first hurdle ...... :-[
The chap I am searching for is Robert Wiltsher (various spellings) bc 1860 Marylebone
I have him with his family in 1901 living Paddington
Robert Wiltsher age 40, Coachman born Marylebone
Arabella Wiltsher age 32, born Dover, Kent
Frederick Wiltsher age 13, born Paddington
Edward Wiltsher age 5, born Knightsbridge
Florence Wiltsher age 3, born Paddington
Elizabeth Wiltsher age 1, born Paddington
The 1911 census has them all living Willesden, Middlesex. Robert and Arabella married 24 years, 7 children born, 4 still living.
My problem is that I can’t find Robert, Arabella and son Frederick on the 1891 census ..... neither can I find a marriage for them.
Hoping sks on here can help
Regards
sre
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Florence's baptism gives fathers name as Robert Frederick.
Edward Thomas's baptism in Knightsbridge has same for father and Arabella Elizabeth for mother - he was born 25 July 1895
I am not seeing birth registrations for them :-\
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Hello,
There is this one in 1871 170/34/61
Robert Wiltcher 11 yrs servant Errand Boy b Marylebone
In the household of William and Mary Wiltcher.
There are children of this couple and Robert's name is dittoed but he is a servant.
It may need further checks.
Sorry- just read the post again, you only want 1891.
Heywood
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Some, maybe all, of these look likely to be Robert's children
Births Mar 1889
Wiltshire Frederick James Paddington 1a 72
Births Dec 1890
Wiltshire Edward Charles Paddington 1a 64
Births Jun 1894
Wiltshire Dorothy Dinah Paddington 1a 37
Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
Wiltshire Emily Rosa M Paddington 1a 67
Births Dec 1896
Wiltshire Male Paddington 1a 55
Deaths Dec 1896
WILTSHIRE Male 0 Paddington 1a 26
Births Jun 1898
WILTSHIRE Eliza Maud E Paddington 1a 21
Births Jun 1900
WILTSHER Elizabeth May Paddington 1a 11
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Is this Robert in 1881 - just to place him
1881 177/ 26/ 45
Robert Wiltshire 20 yrs labourer b St Pancras
With mother Ann and siblings Geo. and Frederick.
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Frederick Henry Wiltsher born 13/8/1887 father Robert Frederick from school admissions 7/1/1895 5/4/1897 both Westminster but can not open them up for some reason for more details.
Jennifer
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Deaths Dec 1911
Wiltsher Arabella E 43 Paddington 1a 3
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Failing miserably with finding a marriage and 1891 I'm afraid :(
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Baptism Florence May Wiltshire in 1893 in Shadwell St Paul gives father Robert, carman and mother Elizabeth.
Ditto Ellen Louisa, 1890.
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Frederick Henry Wiltsher born 13/8/1887 father Robert Frederick from school admissions 7/1/1895 5/4/1897 both Westminster but can not open them up for some reason for more details.
Add is 203 Carlton Mews if that helps and he is down as Fred H.
Added : The other admissions entry has 66 Harriet Mews.
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Frederick Henry Wiltsher born 13/8/1887 father Robert Frederick from school admissions 7/1/1895 5/4/1897 both Westminster but can not open them up for some reason for more details.
Jennifer
66 Harriet Mews in 1895
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Could Arabella be listed as Agnes in 1891 Living at Cambridge Street, Paddington?? Edit -or could this be a previous wife :-\ No completely different family
Agnes Wiltshire Married 33Lodging House Keeper Countisbury, Devon
Frederick J Wiltshire 2 Paddington
Edward C Wiltshire 5 months Paddington
Frances Garrod Servant 16
Ellen Aspinnell Servant
Alfred A Hobson Boarder
RG12 Piece 14 Folio 47 Page 17
Kay
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There is a Robert 7months old with grandparents William and Mary in 1861 census Marylebone.
Jennifer
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One baptism lists father as Robert Frederick WILTSHIRE
Louisa Maud
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Could Arabella be listed as Agnes in 1891 Living at Cambridge Street, Paddington?? Edit -or could this be a previous wife :-\
Agnes Wiltshire Married 33Lodging House Keeper Countisbury, Devon
Frederick J Wiltshire 2 Paddington
Edward C Wiltshire 5 months Paddington
Frances Garrod Servant 16
Ellen Aspinnell Servant
Alfred A Hobson Boarder
RG12 Piece 14 Folio 47 Page 17
Kay
Frederick is Frederick Henry in the school records and there is a bigger gap between him and Edward- unless there is a second Edward?
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If that is Robert in 1861 with his grandparents. Could this be the reason -
Christchurch Marylebone 8/3/1863 bapt.
Frederick Robert Shaw born 21/8/1860 parents Robert Shaw -painter and Eliza Wiltsher?
Jennifer
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Is this Robert in 1881 - just to place him
1881 177/ 26/ 45
Robert Wiltshire 20 yrs labourer b St Pancras
With mother Ann and siblings Geo. and Frederick.
This one may be Robert Wiltchier, 30 yrs living in St Pancras with wife Annie in 1891 and no children.
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If that is Robert in 1861 with his grandparents. Could this be the reason -
Christchurch Marylebone 8/3/1863 bapt.
Frederick Robert Shaw born 21/8/1860 parents Robert Shaw -painter and Eliza Wiltsher?
Jennifer
Frederick Robert Shaw Wiltsher, horse keeper married Hannah Louisa Clinch 3rd July 1879
Father Shaw Wiltsher, House Decorator
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Good find, that's him off the page.
Jennifer
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Good find, that's him off the page.
Jennifer
Is he? I am quite confused now :)
I was thinking horse keeper and coachman :-\
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re 1891 -- Can anyone check the details of the family living at the following address:
58 N Block; Peabody Square; (somewhere in London -- local church St Paul's Shadwell)
There are 2 baptisms for this family which straddle the census; 1890 - Ellen Louise Wiltshire; 1893- Florence May Wiltshire. Father in both cases is Robert Wiltshire, mother Elizabeth.
I can't see any births for an Arabella in the Dover region in the late 1860s and I wonder if Arabella had changed her name from something else.
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re 1891 -- Can anyone check the details of the family living at the following address:
58 N Block; Peabody Square; (somewhere in London -- local church St Paul's Shadwell)
RG12 /289 f79 p23
Robert Wiltshire 34 Carman bn Wiltshire
Elizabeth Wiltshire 45 bn Middlesex
William J Wiltshire 8 bn Crediton, Devon
Ellen L Wiltshire 3 bn Crediton, Devon
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This is becoming very confusing to me in particular
Baptisms for St Augustine Paddington
Florence Margaret 28/07/1897, 203 Carlton Mews
and
Elizabeth May 11/04/1900, 124 Shirland Road
occ Coachman
St Augustine Paddington gives parents as Robert Frederick and Arabella
Louisa Maud
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OK, so it looks as though we can r/o Robert and/or Elizabeth of Peabody Sq
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It's not Dover but these ladies have Arabella as a second name and were born in Kent around the same time.
Maybe we could rule them out or see if/who they married. I note when your Arabella died she is Arabella E but :-\
Edith Arabella Thring born Mar 1865 Greenwich
Janet Arabella Gingell born Jun 1868 Dartford
Fanny Arabella Ashdown born Dec 1868 Greenwich
Added no she doesn't seem to be any of those :(
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Hi
There is this one too
Arabella Elizabeth McRea birth registered 1st Qtr. 1868 Greenwich, Vol 1d Page 861.
Family living in Egham Surrey 1881: Class RG11, Piece: 1322, Folio: 44, Page: 4.
Interestingly, younger sibling of this Arabella was born Dover Kent from the census.
claire
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That looks promising :)
Mother Elizabeth is a widow in 1881 then by 1991 married to a Mr White (he not on census) then widowed again by 1901.
Daughter Margaret with her on all 3 census.
Possible marriage Jun 1884 Windsor
Elizabeth Leng McRae
James White
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Hi
There is this one too
Arabella Elizabeth McRea birth registered 1st Qtr. 1868 Greenwich, Vol 1d Page 861.
Family living in Egham Surrey 1881: Class RG11, Piece: 1322, Folio: 44, Page: 4.
Interestingly, younger sibling of this Arabella was born Dover Kent from the census.
claire
Oh I have been looking for her - there is a birth Frederick Henry McRea - September quarter 1887, Paddington if I recall.
There are only two F H births in Paddington at the right time- the other was Frederick Henry Lake and I found him in 1911.
Fingers crossed.
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To clarify the maiden name of Arabella the best thing to do is to order a birth cert for one of the children
Louisa Maud
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Birth 1889 June quarter Paddington
Dorothy Margaret McRae
Baptism
25 April 1889
Dorothy Margaret Wiltshire - Robert (Coachman) and Elizabeth Wiltshire Paddington St Mary's
But she is born 22nd February :-\
There is also a Florence Margaret McRae birth 1897
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I'd agree with that, but it looks like another of the children were registered as McRea
Sept Qtr. 1897
McRae Florence Margaret ,
district: Paddington
Vol. 1a Page: 33
claire
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Sorry, Claire I just added her also.
She ties in with the baptism of D M Wiltshire with parents Robert and Arabella. :)
Louisa Maud,
You can see the difficulty with ordering birth certificates. :)
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Heywood
I am total confused by this info, I will sit back and see what happens, I wonder what other info the originator has
Louisa Maud
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Heywood
I am total confused by this info, I will sit back and see what happens, I wonder what other info the originator has
Louisa Maud
You are not alone :) I think that perhaps some of the people mentioned may not be the right family.
I hope sre comes back to comment and perhaps more info.
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This is becoming very confusing to me in particular
Baptisms for St Augustine Paddington
Florence Margaret 28/07/1897, 203 Carlton Mews
and
Elizabeth May 11/04/1900, 124 Shirland Road
occ Coachman
St Augustine Paddington gives parents as Robert Frederick and Arabella
Louisa Maud
It looks as though Florence Margaret was registered as McRae.
However,
Elizabeth May Wiltsher June 1900 Paddington 1a 11. Would give mother's name as you suggest Louisa Maud.
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So, do you think we are after a McRea marriage, it is a possibility there isn't a marriage
LM
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So, do you think we are after a McRea marriage, it is a possibility there isn't a marriage
LM
It doesn't look as though there is one.
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I agree there probably wasn't a marriage between them but at least we know who Arabella and her family were :D
Still not found them in 1891 though have we?
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I thought we might get some encouragement this morning as the original poster looked to be online. It would be good to know if any of this makes sense.
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how about this
Frederick Wilsher
born 13/08/1887
bapt 16/06/1897
St Augustine's Church Paddington
father ALBERT FREDERICK WILSHER
mother ARABELLA
of 203 Carlton Mews,( familiar address )
occ coachman
LM
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Familiar address indeed and Albert mistaken for Robert?
Not baptised for 10 years so I wonder well I don't know what I wonder :-\
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I think we had that before but don't remember Albert ???
It is odd that Frederick was baptised 10 yrs after his birth but Dorothy Margaret was baptised in 1889.
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There is a birth for Albert Frederick 1897 and death same year
The birth date of Frederick on bapts is the same as his school admissions
The plot deepens
It could have been a mistake by the incumbent at the time of baptism
LM
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I am baffled :o
LM
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Birth 1889 June quarter Paddington
Dorothy Margaret McRae
Baptism
25 April 1889
Dorothy Margaret Wiltshire - Robert (Coachman) and Elizabeth Wiltshire Paddington St Mary's
But she is born 22nd February :-\
There is also a Florence Margaret McRae birth 1897
We need to be careful though because it seems there was another Robert Wiltshire, carman, having children with Elizabeth, conveniently either side of 1881 from the same address so they are traceable -- and seem to be a different family (see reply no 21 on p3
RG12 /289 f79 p23
Robert Wiltshire 34 Carman bn Wiltshire
Elizabeth Wiltshire 45 bn Middlesex
William J Wiltshire 8 bn Crediton, Devon
Ellen L Wiltshire 3 bn Crediton, Devon )
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I am sure there are 2 families here, another added problem is the miss-spelling of the surname
LM
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I think the conclusion is simply that Robert and Arabella McRae never married.
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The address when Dorothy Margaret Wiltshire was baptised was 9, Blomfield Place (parents Robert and Eliz) -- who was living at that address in 1891?
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There are no marriages on FreeBMD for Robert Wiltshire (any spelling) + Arabella of any surname.
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The address when Dorothy Margaret Wiltshire was baptised was 9, Blomfield Place (parents Robert and Eliz) -- who was living at that address in 1891?
I have tried to find that but nothing yet.
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The address when Dorothy Margaret Wiltshire was baptised was 9, Blomfield Place (parents Robert and Eliz) -- who was living at that address in 1891?
I have tried to find that but nothing yet.
RG12/2 f132 p51
Frank Norris age 46 a Blacksmith bn Paddington with wife Martha age 36 bn Bungay, Suffolk plus children
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Bother, no help there either! >:(
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Just found it - or rather didn't because it goes from 7a to 13 ???
Will look at Frank Norris- perhaps they are out of order. Yes it is out of order- I should have just continued looking ::)
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Hi all
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner, I had to go out this morning ......
Many many thanks to you all for your input .... I have now printed off 12 pages of replies which I am about to sit down with a cuppa and digest ..... I may be a while :)
ttfn
Regards sre
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Good luck!
Please come back with any ideas or extra information. ;)
It doesn't look as though they are in 1891 at all.
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Can't wait for the outcome
LM
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Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread, I have now had time to digest the information given and pass it on to my friend for his comments .....
In summary I think this is where we have got to
Baptism for all 4 children, parents Robert and Arabella Wiltsher (spelling varies)
Frederick Henry born 13.8.1887 and cr 16.6.1897 – living 203 Carlton Mews
Edward Thomas cr 14.8.1895 – 66 Harriet Mews
Florence Margaret cr 28.7.1897 – 203 Carlton Mews
Elizabeth May cr 11.4.1900 – 124 Shirland Road (address on 1901 census)
(Why R&A waited 10 years to baptise Frederick is a bit strange, maybe it had to do with the school or they suddenly got religion, we will never know)
School admissions for the boys (can’t find any for the girls)
Frederick Henry - 7.1.1895 St Pauls School, Westminster – 66 Harriet Mews
Fred H - 5.4.1897 St Augustines School, Westminster – 203 Carlton Mews
Edward – 22.2.1904 St Augustines School, Westminster – 92 Carlton Vale (106 Carlton Vale 1911)
Birth registrations in the name of McRae
Frederick Henry 1887 Paddington
Edward Thomas 1895 Chelsea
Florence Margaret 1897 Paddington
On Edward Thomas Wiltsher’s army attestation he states that he was born Chelsea, the family know a bit about his army career and have his number as 39763, unfortunately we have been unable to find his records on line due to the fact he wasn't discharged until 1925 so will have to apply for them.
The McRae connection makes a lot of sense now, as I have had an email from my friend saying "I think you are right about grandfathers parents, I also think their surname was McRae”. This was before I even mentioned it to him, so well done in spotting that one.
Elizabeth May reg 1900 appears to be the only child registered in the name of Wiltsher, so I wondered if R&A had got married around that time but couldn’t find anything.
I am currently trying to persuade my friend to send for the birth certificate for Edward Thomas (his grandfather) as it is the only way to prove things.
As for finding R&A on the 1891 census, that one remains a mystery which hopefully will be resolved once we have the birth certificate.
Once again many thanks to you all for your help
Regards
sre
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That's a good clear summary so if we pick up the reins of this puzzle again, I think that will help a lot.
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Wow sre,
I do wonder if Arabella married a Mcrea and was still married , the reason why there isn't a marriage between the couple
Yes, if your friend can be persuaded to buy a cert it will help
We await further info !!!
LM
lined through as I think we have established Arabella was a Mcrea at birth
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There is also the Dorothy Margaret McRae birth in 1889 and baptism for Dorothy Margaret Wiltshire.
Do you think she is the same family?
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Dorothy Margaret Wiltshire
Bapt at St Mary Magdalene Paddington
parents Robert and Elizabeth
on 07/04/1889
add 9 Blomfield Place
occ of father coachman
and so the plot deepens
LM
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Was this man running 2 homes ?
There is a dearth for a Dorothy Margaret death 1994 aged 5 registered Windsor, coincidence ?
LM
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Looking back a few pages though, there seems to have been another family with Robert and Elizabeth and the other Robert also being a carman/coachman (just to confuse!) but they lived in Stepney and the places of birth on the 1881 census don't match at all with the ones we're looking for.
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9 Blomfield Place
1891,
Family of Norris living there
Strange coincidence that Dorothy was born and baptised in Paddington not far away from addresses previously listed
I cannot find Dorothy on 1891 or 1901 so far,
LM
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There is a death:
Dorothy Margaret Wiltsher 5 yrs Windsor - June quarter 1894 vol 2c pg 243
There are later deaths for adults but they could be married names.
There are variations of Wilsher in Windsor 1891 but none that would fit.
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Strange isn't it that we can find none of them even with birth dates near to 1891, perhaps they saw the census man coming and disappeared?
LM
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Hi everyone
The good news is I have at last got a copy of the birth certificate for Edward Thomas McRae details as follows
Registration district = Chelsea
Date and where born = 25th July 1895, 66 Harriet Mews (sound familiar?)
Name = Edward Thomas
Sex = boy
Name of father = line through
Name, surname and maiden name of mother = Arabella McRae, domestic servant
Occupation of father = line through
Signature of informant = A. McRae, mother, 66 Harriet Mews
When registered = 2nd September 1895
This confirms everyone’s suspicions about Robert Wiltsher and Arabella McRae not marrying, (I have yet to find a reason).
The bad news is that my friend seems to have lost interest in going any further at the moment, (his uncle who he was doing this for died recently). Maybe once he receives his grandfather Edward Thomas McRae aka Wiltsher's army records his interest with be re awakened!!!!
Once again thank you to all who contributed, without your help I would never have got this far.
Kind regards
sre
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I have helped quite a lot of people with their family tree and I find half way through they lose interest, I really never understand why, but your friend might get his interest back but I must admit it has been an interesting discussion, at least you have some information of Wiltsher family
Often there is no reason why people haven't got married, possibly didn't get round to it, I have seen 2 couple who didn't get married till they reached pensionable age, in both cases single people and this goes back to about 1930's, living together is not a new thing
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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If it helps, Robert Wiltsher (b. 1859) was one of my ancestors on my father's side and married (Ara)Bella Mcrea. Their children were Edward Thomas Wiltsher, May Elizabeth Wiltsher, Florence Margaret Wiltsher and Frederick Henry Wiltsher. Let me know if I can help further as I have quite a large family tree plotted for my name.
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Hello and welcome to RC.
Do you have details of a marriage beween Robert W and Arabella Mcrae? Because as you may have seen, hunting for this defeated rootschatters over 8 pages of responses!
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Hello and thanks for the welcome - I seem to have a bit of history on the Pryke side but Robert Wiltsher is the furthest I have managed to get on my father's side I am afraid. However, I don't give up easily and will be using all the resources I have to go further - I will of course be back in touch as soon as I find something ! Let me know if you need any further help with anyone else.
Best wishes
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Hi and welcome to RootsChat
If you make 1 more post here I will be able to message you - My research into this family stopped in 2015 as my friend had no interest in going further but I still have quite a bit of data if you are interested
Regards
sre
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That would really be most kind and gratefully received - thank you :)
Is there any way to share a family tree privately ? It would take the form of a GEDCOM file and may be of use to you in your research - unless there are privacy issues ?
Thanks
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PM sent today, looking forward to hearing from you
Regards
sre