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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: PawsAplenty77 on Monday 23 February 15 00:21 GMT (UK)
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Hi there, I am looking for the next generation of Haggart's.
Here is what I have.... any help is greatly appreciated!
William James Haggart 1868-1956
His parents:
Thomas and Isabella Haggart ??
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Hi and Welcome to Rootschat,
Have you any idea where in Scotland William James Haggart was born?
And where did he die please?
Looby :)
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He was born in Dundee, Dundee City, Scotland, United Kingdom.
He died in Mount Pleasant, Michigan, U.S.ofA.
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Hi again.
Thanks for the information.
There were 3 William Haggarts born between 1865 and 1870 in Dundee according to Scotlands People - Familysearch have 3 births too. Twoboys had a father called Thomas - none had a mother called Isabella.
Are you certain about parents names (where did you get them from....a death certificate perhaps?) ?
And are you certain about place of birth?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYBZ-645
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYBZ-6HM
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYBZ-64Y
Looby :)
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I'm pretty sure that he was born in Dundee Scotland, but not definitive on the parent's names. I do know that he married Mary Jane (Carmen), and one of their sons was Ogal Anderson Haggart (my great-grandpa.) How should I go about trying to pinpoint my particular William? Thank you so much for the help!
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Hi again,
First of all do you know when he left Scotland?
He should be on the 1871 Census ....somewhere and others depending on when he left for the States.
Also us Scots were pretty keen on using family names for our children. So can you list any other children the couple had and the order they came in.
Often the first son would be called after father's father. Second after mother's father.
First daughter after mother's mother....second after father's mother.
Of course not everyone used this naming tradition and I've noticed that some families broke away from it once they'd gone abroad.
Do you know where he married Mary Jane Carmen ? I take it it was in USA?
Looby :)
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Was William in Canada before moving over the border to USA?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWL8-FD9
There is a Wm Hagert born 1867 in Lambton West District Ontario on 1891 Canadian Census.
His relationship to householder is nephew....it would be worth finding out who he is staying with to help join up the dots with Scotland.
Looby :)
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This may be significant?
William Haggart wed Isabella Wallace, 1842, Edinburgh
May be too early but worth looking at ??? ::)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYML-HHD
Annie
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Thomas Haggart & Isabel Haggart, 1853, Errol, Perth ??? ;D
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY37-PQB
Just wondering if this was not the Thomas & Isabella mentioned earlier (your original question)...........assuming what you wrote meant Isabels maiden name to be Haggart too?
Annie
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1871
William Haggart
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relationship: Son
Father's name: Thomas Haggart
Mother's name: Isabel Haggart
Gender: Male
Where born: Errol, Perthshire
Registration Number: 351
Registration district: Errol
Civil Parish: Errol
County: Perthshire
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 8
Household schedule number: 93
LINE: 10
Roll: CSSCT1871_62
Household Members:
Thomas Haggart 55 b Errol
Isabel Haggart 42 b Errol
Margaret Haggart 13
William Haggart 9
Christina Haggart 5
Isabel Haggart 3
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1901
William Haggart
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Errol, Perthshire
Registration Number: 351
Registration district: Errol
Civil Parish: Errol
County: Perthshire
Address: Chapelhill
Occupation: Brickburner
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 54
LINE: 1
Roll: CSSCT1901_119
Household Members:
William Haggart 38
Jane Haggart 38
William Haggart 9
Annie
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19 William Hag(g)arts were born in Scotland 1863-1873, of whom five were born in Dundee and one in Arbirlot, both places in Angus.
However in the 1881 census there is only one William Haggart born 1863-1783 in Dundee and still living in Scotland. This is the son of David Haggart and Janet Mowatt, born 17 May 1870. The Arbirlot one, son of David Haggart and Mary Livingston, is also in Dundee.
Scotland's People has four deaths of William Haggarts born 1863-1873 and died before 1881, but just two died in Angus. Only one of the two died in Dundee. You could get those two death certificates from SP, which would definitively eliminate at least two candidates.
Nine more William Haggarts born 1863-1873 died in Scotland after 1881, none of them in Angus. So your one has to be one of six remaining ones who did not die in Scotland. There is just one death in England and Wales of a possible candidate, who died in Anglesey, Wales in 1948 aged 77.
There were no William Haggarts born 1863-1873 in Scotland and in either the USA census of 1880 or the Canadian census of 1881.
The USA Census of 1940 lists the family as William, 70, born Scotland; wife Mary J, 62, born Canada, son Kenneth, 25, born Michigan; daughter-in-law Helen, 18, born Michigan; grandson, 1, born Michigan.
In 1920 the family consisted of William, 50, born Scotland, immigrated 1892, plus wife Mary J, 43, born Canada, and six sons, the eldest, William, 18, born in Canada.
A family in Sarnia, Lambton, Ontario in 1901 consists of William Haggart, born 22 June 1867, Scotland, with wife J Mary, born 16 June 1876, born somewhere I can't decipher in Ontario, and son William, born 22? February 1900, Sarnia. William Sr had immigrated to Canada in 1889 and was naturalised there the same year. I note with disappointment that none of the William Haggarts born in Scotland between 1863 and 1873 was born on 22 June.
There are three children in the Ontario birth records - Annie Isabella 1894, William James 1900, Ogle Anderson 1902. Do Canadian birth certificates tell you much about the parents? Do they tell you the date and place of the parents' marriage?
Can you get his Canadian naturalisation papers? What about the US - obviously they moved to Michigan around 1903, but did they become US citizens?
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Hi
William Hoggard (sic) age 27 born Scotland parents Thomas & Isabella and Mary J Carman age 20 born Moore (Ontario?) parents Robt & Jane married Lambton, Ontario 19th Sept 1894.
Andy
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I wondered if perhaps William was illegitimate, or if his father died and his mother later married a Thomas Haggart. But I don't think that can be the case.
There are just two Williams born in Scotland on 22 June 1867 with mother Isabella.
One in Rescobie, Angus to Charles Carnegy and Isabella Tosh, and one in Dundee to William Walker and Isabella Marshall.
The Rescobie one has the middle name of Alexander, and he is with his parents and siblings in the 1881 census, so it can't be him unless he dropped the middle name, adopted the surname Haggart for some other reason, and a fictitious father named Thomas.
William Walker and Isabella Marshall had just one more child, Isabella, born in 1869. However William and Isabella jr are with their widowed father, grandmother and aunt in Liff, so it can't be him unless he adopted the surname Haggart for some other reason, and a fictitious father named Thomas.
Or of course he might have got his birth date wrong. Or his mother's given name.
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B. June 22 1868 - Dundee, Dundee City, Scotland, United Kingdom
D. June 21 1956 - Mount Pleasant, Isabella, Michigan, United States
Married Mary Jane Carman
Children: Robert Collingwood Haggart, Annie Isabella Haggart, Douglas Arnold Haggart, Kenneth Haggart, Ogal Anderson Haggart
He did live/move to Canada.
This is what I have.... not sure beyond that. There seems to be a mixture as to whether the dad is Thomas or William, Sr.? Confusion for sure!
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Pawsaplenty. Hi again.
I posted earlier that Wm Hagert (spelling on Familysearch) is on the 1891 Canadian Census and is listed as being Scottish , born 1867 and Nephew to the Head of Household. It could be helpful to find out who William is living with. Finding out his aunt/uncle's name, age etc could help locate William's birth .
Looby :)
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B. June 22 1868 - Dundee, Dundee City, Scotland, United Kingdom
Except that the 1901 census of Canada gives his DoB as 22 June 1867, not 1868.
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I posted earlier that Wm Hagert (spelling on Familysearch) is on the 1891 Canadian Census and is listed as being Scottish , born 1867 and Nephew to the Head of Household. It could be helpful to find out who William is living with. Finding out his aunt/uncle's name, age etc could help locate William's birth.
The head of household is David Lawrie, 82, born Scotland and the only other person listed is Allison Lawrie,wife, 65. So David Lawrie would have been born 1808/9 and Allison 1825/6. I have not found a marriage of David Lawrie to Allison, or any children, or a listing in the 1881 or 1871 census of Canada, or deaths in Ontario. Nor (not surprisingly) in the 1901 census of Canada. So not a lot to go on there either.
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Thank you for all of your help! I'm working hard on all of this!
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Hi,
I've done a bit of digging re. Wm Hagert on 1891 Canadian Census.
The couple he is living with and are David Lawrie age 82 and Allison Lawrie age 65. He is recorded as their nephew.
I wonder if the name Lawrie is a mistranscription and the couple are in fact David and Allison Powrie.
There is a David Powrie born 1814 and an Allison Powrie born 1826 at Plympton, Kent Ontario on the Ontario 1861 Census. There are 3 girls with them all born Scotland - Susan Powrie born 1843, Janet Powrie born 1845 and Ann Powrie born 1851.
David with year of birth 1813 and Allison 1829 are recorded at Plympton on the 1871 Canada Census as Poory.
I can't find them on 1881 Census.
Found a birth for Susan Powrie 1843 at Errol Perthshire parents David Powrie and Susan Craig. There is a marriage for David and Susan at Kettins, Angus https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTV5-4XB
There is also a marriage at Errol for a David Powrie and an Alison Wood in 1853.https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY3W-3HQ
David Powrie is on Scotland 1851 Census - a widower with 3 daughters.......
All supposition at the moment and no link as yet to William Haggart/ Hagert, but I thought if he was the couples' nephew that we might be able to trace him.
Looby :)
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Found a birth for Susan Powrie 1843 at Errol Perthshire parents David Powrie and Susan Craig.
There is also a marriage at Errol for a David Powrie and an Alison Wood
Looby............This would tie in with the info. I posted earlier regarding Errol :P
Annie
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Found a birth for Susan Powrie 1843 at Errol Perthshire parents David Powrie and Susan Craig.
There is also a marriage at Errol for a David Powrie and an Alison Wood
Looby............This would tie in with the info. I posted earlier regarding Errol :P
Annie
Hi Annie , Yes I noticed that Errol Perthshire had been noted by yourself earlier.
Only snag with that family is that William is still in Scotland in 1901 when the William Haggart that Pawsaplenty is looking for is in Canada married and with children https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KHLC-G27
Could be a relative though??
Looby :)
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Thank goodness for all your help! This is a lot of sifting :)
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Hi Annie , Yes I noticed that Errol Perthshire had been noted by yourself earlier.
Only snag with that family is that William is still in Scotland in 1901
[/quote]
Looby,
My reference regarding Errol was what looked to be Williams parents from the VERY 1st post on the thread by Paws?
1st post being "William James Haggart 1868-1956
His parents: Thomas and Isabella Haggart ??
My post for possible parents "Thomas Haggart & Isabel Haggart, 1853, Errol, Perth"
Annie
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You know I think you could be right Annie with the 1871 Census :)
There is a daughter Christina Haggart age 5 (born circa 1866) and on Familysearch there is this birth- https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ4W-4MW
Christina Haggart born at Errol. Perthshire to Thomas Haggart and Isabel Wood !
David Powrie widower marries an Alison Wood.
The 1901 entry - William Haggart age 38 is a puzzle though. This looks like the child from the 1871 30 years on..... :-\
Looby :)
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Looby,
To be honest, I think purchasing a few certs. for this lot is a must ???
Not sure if there has been a death of a wife, a 2nd marriage or extra marital affair but it sure looks an exciting/interesting tree to me ;D ::) :P
Annie
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Looby................
I wonder if Thomas had 2 sons with 2 different women named William ???
Annie
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Have just spent an evening working on this - like these little mysteries!
I completely agree that the link here is Errol, Perthshire and not Dundee - however, it's a somewhat confusing story.
Starting with William Haggart himself - I am sure that a) he was 3 years older than he said (he was a fair bit older that his wife) and b) that the day of the month he was born is not as shown on a census. I feel certain that he is the William Haggart b.30/6/1864 Errol, Perthshire, son of Thomas Haggart and Isabella Gellatley - his birth was registered by his mother and the date of parents marriage is shown as 7th December 1857 Perth.
2nd bit of confusion - Thomas Haggart did indeed marry 7/12/1857 (as a widower aged 43 & a Salmon Fisher) but certificate shows her to be Margt. (?) Gellatly. All their childrens births show her as Isabel/Isabella so can only assume this was an error on behalf of the cleric at the time. Her parents are shown as - wait for it - Reputed father Thomas Wood, Shoemaker and Margaret Gellatly who were clearly unmarried. So, was Allison Wood who married David Powrie 11/1/1853 Errol a sister or half-sister of Isabella?
Thomas Haggart is still unmarried on 1851 census (transcribed as Thomis Hagart) when shown as a Fisherman (which ties in with occupation at 2nd marriage).
The only marriage I can find is one mentioned before - Thomas Haggart married to Isabel Haggart 25/2/1853 Errol. In fact, it is the very next entry after the marriage of David Powrie and Allison Wood. Confusingly, both David and Thomas are shown as Weavers!! There doesn't appear to have been any children from Thomas' first marriage.
(Looby - the William Haggart in 1901 has age recorded wrongly on ancestry - should read 33 not 38! He is unmarried and his older sister Jane is a housekeeper. Their parents were Peter and Catherine Haggart.)
To go back to William Haggart b.1864, son of Thomas and Isabella. There is no further trace of him in Scotland after 1881 census which ties in with your man popping up in Canada.
I can't explain the anomalies here but I feel 99.9% certain that this is your man.
Annette
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Is it possible that Thomas had kids with 3 different women ???
My head feels like a tin of Alphabetti Spaghetti ;D ;D ;D
Annie
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Is it possible that Thomas had kids with 3 different women ???
My head feels like a tin of Alphabetti Spaghetti ;D ;D ;D
Annie
Don't think so, Annie! I did check with certificates as I went along. Think the wife shown as Margt. (who made her mark) when Thomas married the 2nd. time is definitely a clerical error and should read Isabella Gellatly and she appears as Isabella on childrens births as either Gellatly or Wood (her reputed fathers name).
Thomas definitely single in 1851 but had squeezed in 2 marriages by 1861!
Annette
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Thank you, all!!! I'm glad I wasn't the only one with my head spinning!
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Hi
"2nd bit of confusion - Thomas Haggart did indeed marry 7/12/1857 (as a widower aged 43 & a Salmon Fisher) but certificate shows her to be Margt. (?) Gellatly. All their childrens births show her as Isabel/Isabella so can only assume this was an error on behalf of the cleric at the time. Her parents are shown as - wait for it - Reputed father Thomas Wood, Shoemaker and Margaret Gellatly who were clearly unmarried. So, was Allison Wood who married David Powrie 11/1/1853 Errol a sister or half-sister of Isabella?"
The 1851 census for Errol has the following at Cowgate, Errol
Alison Gallately 24 head
Isabel Gallately 22 sister
Andy
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Well found, Andy! I hadn't actually looked for these 2 before their marriages.
Annette
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Hurrah! We got there....so William is lodging in 1891 with his Aunt Allison Powrie nee Wood /Gellatly at Wyoming, Lambton West, Canada.
Looby :)
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Think the wife shown as Margt. (who made her mark) when Thomas married the 2nd. time is definitely a clerical error and should read Isabella Gellatly and she appears as Isabella on childrens births as either Gellatly or Wood (her reputed fathers name).
Thomas definitely single in 1851 but had squeezed in 2 marriages by 1861!
Thanks Annette but I'm sure you will see why (with all those names) that I was wondering how many women there were ??? ::) ;D :P
Annie
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Just to continue the confusion in 1841 Alison and Isabella are shown as Wood apparently with their mother shown as Margaret Gellatly 35 and head of household being a John Gellatly 55 whom I'm guessing is possibly her own father.
Annette
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Annette,
More or less solid confirmation to link those surnames/relationships ??? ::)
Love these enigmas ;D
Annie
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Phew! You have all been busy while I've been asleep :)
For once, if there is (as seems very likely) a mistranscription or Lawrie for Powrie, it is not the fault of Ancestry! The original handwritten census (extract attached) is very clearly Lawrie.
Death record of Alison Powrie, age 65, in Wyoming, Lambton County, Ontario on 7 November 1891, no parents named. But none for David .... unless it's David Powrie who died in Toronto on 27 December 1911. However FamilySearch have his DoB as 6 April 1815 and his age as 66! Parents Robert Towrie (sic) and Annie McPhail.
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Hi
The link below has some interesting information, I had a quick look but couldn't find any trace of Robert.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=88752022 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=88752022)
Andy
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Hi
Just to confuse further there is a Robert Haggart, parents Thomas Haggart (born Errol) mother Margaret Gray. Robert was born Dundee 22nd June 1860. The 1861 and 1871 censuses back up the birth year but the date 22nd June keeps popping up. I suspect Robert is related to William and I wonder if because both have birthdays 22nd June they referred to themselves as "twins"
Andy
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Ah. I was wondering where the tautological and very un-Scottish 'Dundee, Dundee City' had come from. That seems to answer that question.
(For the benefit of anyone wondering what I mean by un-Scottish, the only time one would speak of 'Dundee City' without further qualification would be if one were talking about a football club of that name. Referring to the place, one would either just say 'Dundee' or more formally 'The City of Dundee'.)
Interesting idea about the 'twin', though William was born on 20 June 1864, not 22 June any year.
I wonder why William is showing up as aged 9 on that 1871 census? On census day 1871 he would have been 6, not 9.
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I wonder why William is showing up as aged 9 on that 1871 census? On census day 1871 he would have been 6, not 9.
Probably looked age 6 to the enumerator?
Annie
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This post caught my eye when I read the name Haggart. My ex-mother-in-laws first two names were Isabella Haggart. I think she was born in Edinburgh, but I have not investigated this side as I am having enough trouble with my ancestors. Have you traced any who stayed in Scotland?
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Hi
William also had a younger brother Robert, born Errol 28th June 1873, father Thomas Haggart, mother Isabella Gellately
The 1881 census has both William & Robert living with their parents in Errol, Ancestry has transcribed the surname as Haggert
Thomas Haggert 65
Isabella Haggert 52
Isabella Haggert 12
Robert Haggert 7
William Haggert 16
Andy
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I came across this site when researching the history of a copy of Burns' Complete Works (in 5 volumes circa 1840) which I have recently acquired. Each volume is inscribed "Presented to my daughter Charlotte Augusta Hagart by her affectionate father Robert Hagart". Some brief digging has led me to the following conclusions that Robert was from Edinburgh b1802 and d1894 and his tombstone image is available online. Charlotte was born circa 1829. Robert was living at 13 Manor Place, Edinburgh when he died and had a brother William who was born in 1797. If anyone can shed some more light I'd be very interested.
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This post caught my eye when I read the name Haggart. My ex-mother-in-laws first two names were Isabella Haggart. I think she was born in Edinburgh, but I have not investigated this side as I am having enough trouble with my ancestors. Have you traced any who stayed in Scotland?
I have Isabella Haggart in my tree , in Edinburgh