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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Carlow => Topic started by: Phenmark on Friday 27 February 15 15:41 GMT (UK)
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Does anybody have info on a townland called Rageran in Borris parish? I find a family of Keefes in Rageran. Parents are Darby and Margaret. One of the children is Mary, who it appears later married Bryan Neil. I have a Sarah (Sally) Neil I'm tracing. I wonder if Mary Keefe could be her mother, as mother's last name is not recorded on Sarah's bap record. She and brother, Andrew were baptized in "Raheens" I wonder if Rageran was/is nearby.
Thanks,
Steve
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I wonder if it could be Rathgeran.
I can't see any Townlands starting with Rag.
Where did you find the Keefes in Rageran?
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I wonder if it could be Rathgeran.
I can't see any Townlands starting with Rag.
Where did you find the Keefes in Rageran?
I found four records of baptism on rootsireland. All 4 had listed Darby as father. The 2 oldest were twins (says so on the record), Catherine & Mary; bap. 1786; Mother: Margaret Keefe.
Then a Laurence ; bap. 1791; Mother: Mary Doyle
Then Mary; bap. 1796; Mother: Margaret Doyle.
Rathgeran it may be. Is that nearby Rathanna, Raheendarragh, etc.?
Thanks,
Steve
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It's about 7km from Borris but I don't know if it's in Borris parish.
This is a good site to search for townlands http://www.thecore.com/seanruad/
And this for looking at maps
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/
Finding a list of townlands for Church Parishes isn't so easy.
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Does anybody have info on a townland called Rageran in Borris parish? I find a family of Keefes in Rageran. Parents are Darby and Margaret. One of the children is Mary, who it appears later married Bryan Neil. I have a Sarah (Sally) Neil I'm tracing. I wonder if Mary Keefe could be her mother, as mother's last name is not recorded on Sarah's bap record. She and brother, Andrew were baptized in "Raheens" I wonder if Rageran was/is nearby.
Thanks,
Steve
Rathgeran is only a few miles from Rathanna.Its about the same distance from Borris as Raheendarragh.
Think its in the parish of St. Mullins but not sure.Google maps will give you an good idea of the distances involved.
Few Keeffe on Griffiths for that general area of Carlow,mainly in Kiltennell or St. Mullins.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&familyname=keeffe&firstname=&offset=20&countyname=CARLOW&parishname=&unionname=&baronyname=&totalrows=37&PlaceID=0&wildcard=on
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It's in the Civil Parish of St.Mullins but some of that is in the Parish of Borris.
All these different types of parishes is so annoying.
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Thanks everyone!
Kiltennell is where I am focusing, as that is where my McDonald/Neil group is.
Yes, so very many parishes, so precious few brain cells!
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Link with list of townlands in Kiltennel Civil Parish.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eua/
Parish number 39 on map is St Mullins Civil Parish. Click on that and that brings up its list of townlands.
Borris is in the Clonygoose Civil Parish - number 14
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Hi again Steve, In the library I just came across the name Keeffe and its various spellings. When I get home from work, I will go through books as I'm sure I'll have something for you. Kim
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Link with list of townlands in Kiltennel Civil Parish.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eua/
Parish number 39 on map is St Mullins Civil Parish. Click on that and that brings up its list of townlands.
Borris is in the Clonygoose Civil Parish - number 14
Thanks for this!
Steve
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Hi again Steve, In the library I just came across the name Keeffe and its various spellings. When I get home from work, I will go through books as I'm sure I'll have something for you. Kim
Great!
Thanks, Kim,
Steve
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Hi Kim,
Just wondering if you ever came across any info on the Keefes.
Thanks!
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Hi Steve, I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Had all Keeffes written down and never sent. Here's what I have found;
From Borris parish:
27 June 1782 James p.Michael Keeffe-Mary Brenon
2 April 1785 Patt p.Michael Keeff-Mary Doyle
4 April 1786 Cath p.Darby Keeffe-Margt
4 April 1786 Mary p.Darby Keeffe-Margt
4 April 1791 Laurence p. Darby Keeffe-Mary Doyle
14 Nov 1794 Mary p.Michael Keeffe-Judy Mullelly
8 Oct 1796 Mary p. Darby Keaf-Margret Dayle
16 Nov 1799 Martin p.James Keaf-Mary Daran
5 May 1800 Eleanore p.Bryan Keeffe-Elisabett Scully
4 June 1801 Ed p.John Keaf-Margt Corcoran
24 June 1802 John p.John Keaff-Margt Corcoran
29 April 1803 Michael p.James Keaf-Mary Doran
5 May 1803 John p.Brian Keaf-Bety Scully
15 March 1804 Ross? p.John Keaff-Margt Dayle
18 May 1806 Mary p.James Keefe-Mary
15 June 1806 Mary p.Bryan Keefe-Betty
5 May 1808 Margaret p. John Keefe-Margaret
15 August 1808 Catherine p. Bryan Keefe-Betty
9 May 1809 Patrick p. James Keefe-Mary
30 January 1811 Michael p. Bryan Keefe-Betty
30 Sept 1813 Brigid p.James Keeffe-Mary Doran
30 Sept 1826 Michael p. Patt Keefe-Judy Keefe
24 January 1827 Michael p. James Keefe- Ann Doyle
marriages:
18 April 1795 John Keeffe- Mary Doran
May 1800 John Keeffe- Margaret Corcoran
8 Feb 1812 Moses Keeffe- Brigid Whelan
St Mullins Parish:
2 July 1802 Joney p. Ned Keeffe-Mary Geehan
25 May 1804 Michael p. Dick?? Keeffe-Mary Geehan
26 March 1809 Bath?(may be Bartholomew) p. Edward Keef-Mary Geehan
3 July 1820 Mary p. Ned Keeffe- Mary
23/28 July 1820 James p.Ned Keeffe- Mary Gahon(this entry is 2x listed on the 23 & 28 of July also I think the priest goofed up the year on page)
25 Feb 1828 Darby p. Bryan Keeffe-Cathrine Gahon
19 April 1822 Bryan p. Jack Keefe-Nelly Kelly
26 Oct 1822 Margtt p. Bryan Keeff-Cathy Gahon
29 Dec 1822 Patrick p. Larry Keeffe- Nelly ? Murphy
20 Jan 1823 Bridgt p. Ned Keeffe-Ally Byrne
1 April 1824 Garret p. Jack Keeffe- Nelly Kelly
9 March 1825 Catharin p. Laurence & Nelly Keef
20 Sept 1825 Eleanor p. Bryan Keefe-Cath Gahan
1 Jan 1826 Cath p. John Keefe-Nelly Kelly
25 Oct 1827 John p. John Keeffe- Ellen Kelly
8 Dec 1826 Margret p. Edmond Keeffe-Alisia Byrne
22 April 1828 James p. Bryan Keeffe-Catharine Geehin
9 Aug 1829 Nicholas p. Bernard Keeffe-Catherine Geehin
25 April 1830 Bernard p. Laurence Keeff-Ellen Murphy
marriages:
15 Feb 1802 Ned Keeffe-Mary Gahan
18 Feb 1822 Laurence Keefe- Ann Murphy
22 Feb 1816 John Keeffe-Nelly Kelly
these are all the Keeffes I came across in the Borris & St Mullins parish registers from 1782-1830. I have listed all the entries for any male Keeffes. There are, of course, listings for Keeffe females but during this time frame men are much easier to trace as women were more an aside than anything else. More than likely all these Keeffes are either brothers or cousins but of the same line as there are not too many of them in the Borris/St Mullins parishes at this time.A couple of notes about these parish registers-there are many places in the registers where you come across entries that are totally illegible,either from age,being faded,or going off the page. Also, there are a huge amount of gaps in the records.For example births from 1813 end being recorded half way through the year and pick up again in 1825 so you have a 12 yr gap which may contain many more family members. Irish records are not great. Just to let you know in both parishes there are also Neils.A final note-these two parishes seem to have families that go back and forth between the two so never discount someone of same name as they are probably related. My family as well as others I have looked at can be found in both. Hope this helps,Kim
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Hi Kim,
Thanks a million for all your time and effort. I'm leaning toward Darby and Margt. as my possible direct line. Specifically, their daughter, Mary, b. 1796 (it looks as though the Mary born to them in 1786 probably died). I believe my Mary married Bryan Neil. However, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to offer an opinion on a question:
Here is Mary and Bryan's marriage record:
Date of Marriage: 22-Jun-1806
Parish / District: Borris
Name: Bryan Neil Mary Keefe
Here is the Bap. record of (I think) daughter, Sarah:
Name: Sarah Niel
Date of Baptism: 04-Nov-1806
Address: Raheen Parish/District: BORRIS
Father: Brian Niel Mother: Mary (N/R)
Given the brief 5 months between marriage and baptism of Sarah, should I be overly skeptical that these are 2 different couples? It seems more likely that they are one and the same, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Thanks again, Kim!
Add: From what I've gleaned from this post, Rageran, Borris, the address given on the Bap. records of the 4 children of Darby and Margaret, may be Rathgeran, which sits in St Mullins. Do I understand correctly that part of St, Mullins civil parish is in Borris RC Parish?
Add: Now that I look at both records, all the sponsors are Waters'. Andrew & Nancy on marriage, and Michael & Mary on bap.
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Would assume its the Mary born 4th April 1786 (parents Darby Keeffe and Margt.) that married Bryan Neill in 1806 as she would be 20 at this stage and the Mary (Darby Keafe and Margret Dayle) born 8th October 1796 is only 10 in 1806.
The 5 month gap between wedding and baptism would have hardly been unusual I would imagine- for the first child of a "rushed "marriage the timing would be about spot on.
As regards the civil parish address;not sure as civil parishes are not a concept most people are familar with today in Ireland.Will ask someone from Borris if Rathgeran townland is in Borris parish as can't find a list of townlands listed by parish.
Civil parishes were an administeritive district and have no real relation to present day RC parishes,most of which haven't changed in 200 plus years.
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Would assume its the Mary born 4th April 1786 (parents Darby Keeffe and Margt.) that married Bryan Neill in 1806 as she would be 20 at this stage and the Mary (Darby Keafe and Margret Dayle) born 8th October 1796 is only 10 in 1806.
Thanks, Kim,
Of course! 10 years old....that one got by me!
OK so, I wonder what could explain the 2 Marys, born to Darby and Margaret, 10 years apart? Could these be 2 different couples?
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Hi, it is possible that these are two different couples as the Doyle surname in Carlow at this time is one of the most numerous and the name Margaret as with Doyle is one of the most used forenames. Or as you say it may just be that the first one died. However given the year of marriage I would think it was two different couples.
I agree with Noland01 that the child is of your couple as you find many,many instances in the parish records of children born right after a marriage- I have a few in my family who are also from the Borris/St Mullins area. As to Rathgeran, you are spot on-it is in St Mullins parish area. My O'Briens are from there.
As to the Waters' sponsors and witnesses, they are probably related to your family. I will have a look to see if I can find a birth for Brien Neil ass he is probably from the same general area. If you need anything else let me know. Kim
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Noland01,
Thanks for that!
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I will have a look to see if I can find a birth for Brien Neil ass he is probably from the same general area. If you need anything else let me know. Kim
Much appreciated!
Steve
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Hi Steve, I went through the parish records of both Borris and St Mullins but could not locate a birth for Brien/Bryan Neil. Which either means he was born prior to 1782 when the records begin or his record may be illegible or in one of the gaps of time or he is not originally from either parish.
I did find something curious however. In 1789 there is a birth to a Byrne Neil and Bridget Neil. I am going back to the library to double check this as it is perhaps a priest error and the name is actually Brien.If this is indeed Brien, than he was probably a bit older than Mary and thus born before the library's records.
I also found Bryan Neil sponsoring Mary daughter of James Neil/Mary Ryan so James is probably a brother to Bryan.Also, James can be found in Raheen and I found a James & Pat Neil in Rathgeran with their wives & families.
Continuing through the records I found 2 other children to Bryan & Mary; 28 Feb 1811 Mary born to Bryan Neil & Mary sponsors Moses Keef & Mary Neil and a Margret born on 16 November 1828. Margret appears to be their last child. Mind you there are probably quite a few more children to Bryan & Mary but there are no records between May 1813 and 1825 which is a shame. On a good note is the fact that finally on Margret's baptism record the mother's surname is finally listed-Keeffe. Hope this helps,Kim
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Thanks Kim!
I had the bap. record for Mary in 1811, but had no idea about Margaret, 1828. Terrific news about the Keefe name given on her cert!
Also, I agree, it looks as though James and Bryan Neil are brothers. They are both on the Tithe Applotment Books; James in Raheenkyle, and Bryan in Raheendarragh. Both these townlands appear to be very connected, both geographically, and familial.
Thanks again!
Steve
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Hi Steve, just a quick question. Did you find out about your McDonalds and O'Briens. Saw your post and wasn't sure if I had given you anything on them. Kim
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Hi Steve, just a quick question. Did you find out about your McDonalds and O'Briens. Saw your post and wasn't sure if I had given you anything on them. Kim
Hi Kim,
You were a great help with MacDonald/O'Brien. Aside from a few lingering questions, I am very happy with how far I got. I basically started that thread not even sure if I had the right county, and now am quite certain I nailed the actual townland! What's more, I think that marriage record for Patrick MacDonald and Annie O'Brien in West Derby Lancs is definitely that of my folks. Never thought I'd find that out!
Thanks for everything you and everyone else has helped me with.
Steve
Add: I am going to post a follow up question on the other post.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=706946.54
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Hi Steve, sorry about that. I thought I had sent you info about them,it did seem familiar. Guess my brain was asleep. Glad to help,Kim