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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: queencorgi1 on Thursday 05 March 15 13:24 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help me disentangle this family? I have more than a suspicion that they are Jewish. All I can find on them is:
1) Their daughter Elizabeth Daisy was born in Paddington 1882. Birth registered by her mother, Hester Hannah Walter, formerly Moses. They were living in Portsdown Road. At this time Morris was a wholesale clothier.
2) When Elizabeth got married in 1929 (aged 41), Morris was dead, but was described as a cloth merchant. Dorothy Walter was a witness.
I can't find them on the censuses (am I just being thick?) I tried the JewishGen website without success. Any thoughts anyone??
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You might need to re-think her birth?
1881 census
Class: RG11; Piece: 7; Folio: 97; Page: 35
63 Portsdown Road, Paddington, Middlesex
Walter, Morris Head M 40 Wholesdale Clothier b Spitalfields
Walter, Hesther Wife F 33 b Cripplegate
Walter, Hannah A Daughter F 12 Scholar b Paddington
Walter, Kate L Daughter F 11 Scholar b Paddington
Walter, Stanley M Son M 10 Scholar b Paddington
Walter, Gertrude J Daughter F 9 Scholar b Paddington
Walter, Eleanor A Daughter F 8 Scholar b Paddington
Walter, Violet J Daughter F 4 b Paddington
Walter, Arthur J Son M 3 b Paddington
Walter, Dorothy R Daughter F 2 b Paddington
Walter, Elizabeth D Daughter F 1 b Paddington
Walter Maria Louisa Daughter F 6 months b Paddington
Wolf, Lucien Brother-in-Law M 24 Journalist b Islington
Wolf, Fanny Sister-in-Law F 28 b Cripplegate
Harding, Henrietta Governess F 26 Governess b Plymouth
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1891 census
Class: RG12; Piece: 5; Folio: 45; Page: 38
63 Portsdown Road, Paddington, Middlesex
Walter, Morris Head M 50 Wholesdale & Export Clothier b North Folgate
Walter, Hesther Wife F 42 b City of London
Walter, Hannah Daughter F 22 b Paddington
Walter, Kate Daughter F 21 b Paddington
Walter, Stanley Son M 20 Shipping Traveller b Paddington
Walter, Gertrude Daughter F 19 b Paddington
Walter, Eleanor Daughter F 18 b Paddington
Walter, Violet Daughter F 14 b Paddington
Walter, Arthur Son M 13 b Paddington
Walter, Dorothy Daughter F 12 b Paddington
Walter, Elizabeth Daughter F 11 b Paddington
Walter Maria Daughter F 10 b Paddington
Walter, Gladys Daughter F 5 b Paddington
Walter, Phyllis Daughter F 4 b Paddington
Polak, Selina Governess F 22 Governess b Dover
Mester, Edward Brother-in-Law M 31 Journalist b London
+ 5 servants
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RG12 Piece: 5 Folio 45 Page 38 - 63 Portsdown Road. Padddington London
All children born London
Morris Walter 50 Wholesale Clothier.
Hester Walter 42
Hannah Walter 22 Kate Walter 21
Stanley Walter 20 Shipping Traveller
Gertrude Walter 19 Eleanor Walter 18
Violet Walter 14 Arthur Walter 13
Dorothy Walter 12 Elizabeth Walter 11
Maria Walter 10 Gladys Walter 5 Phyllis Walter 4
Selena Polak 22 Edward A Meston 3
Mary Morgan 41 Esther Morgan 30
Alice Taylor 11 Emma Baker 20 Ada Haycock 26
Sandra
Might as well post since it was typed ;)
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http://royalterra.com/www/family.php?database=humo_&id=F4061&main_person=I8878
Sandra
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Snap! Sandra ;D ;D ;D
Takes a while to type it out, huh?
Happens to me all the time ::) ;D
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Multi-tasking as well ;) Phone in the other hand - ;)
Morris Walter born 1840 died Q1 1901 Paddington - aged 61 - Volume 1a Page 15
Sandra
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According to a newspaper report concerning bankruptcy of F & L Walter, Clothiers, Morris Walter senior partner died suddenly 25 th January 1901.
Cathy
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1) Their daughter Elizabeth Daisy was born in Paddington 1882.
There is definitely a birth registered for Elizabeth Daisy in 1882
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Morris Walter - Address 22/24/26/28 Fournier Street Spitalfields and of 63 Portsdown Road Maida Vale both in Middlesex Died 25 January 1901 at Portsdown Road.
Probate Date 8 Mar 1902 to Louis Walter Wholesale Clothier. Effects £100
Sandra
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I think some of the sisters moved to Maidenhead, Berkshire by 1912, you might find them there ;)
You could look for derivatives of Elizabeth, like Betty for example.
Cathy
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1871 Paddington London - 22 Portsdown Road.
Morris Walker 31 Wholesale Clothier.
Hester Walker 23
Harrol Walter 3 Hannah Walter 3
Kate Walter 1 Stanley Walter 3 Months
Harriet Pritchard 38 Nurse Domestic.
Ellen Pimes 31 Servant.
Ellen Sarner 19 Servant.
Ellen Morris 19 Servant.
Sandra
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Marriage Morris Walter to Hester Moses - Q4 - City Of London - Volume 1c 225
Sandra
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Thank you all for your speedy and helpful replies! I should like to know more about the newspaper report on the bankruptcy, Cathy, if you have anything to add??
Baffled as to why I couldn't find the census entries but yay! jumping up and down now, thanks to you wonderful people. I looked again at Elizabeth's birth certificate and found that the date of birth had the addition '1879' written in very small letters, evidently the registrar naturally assumed the registration was for the year in question. Elizabeth definitely did use the name 'Betty' in later life because that's stated in her probate note. Sandra, thank you for your last note, just came in under the wire as I was posting!
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Hi
There is a Will for Morris Walter, probate London 8 March, to Louis Walter Wholesales Clothier, he died 25 Jan 1901 at 63 Portsdown Rd
Effects £100.00
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Morris Walter - Address 22/24/26/28 Fournier Street Spitalfields and of 63 Portsdown Road Maida Vale both in Middlesex Died 25 January 1901 at Portsdown Road.
Probate Date 8 Mar 1902 to Louis Walter Wholesale Clothier. Effects £100
Sandra
Believe Louis Walters (mentioned in the probate) was the brother of Morris and lived at 15 Palace Mansions Fulham London.
1901
Louis Walter 57 Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer. Employer.
Louisa Maud Walter 50
Philip Henry Walter 25 Tailor. Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer.
Sandra
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http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=enockulle&id=I317966
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Thanks Sandra!
I have just started having a quick look at the history of Fournier Street, where Morris's shop was, and it was bang 'in the heart of the Jewish East End'. There seems to be only one surviving 'wholesale clothier' firm left of many, and of course, they sold cloth rather than garments (obvious when you think about it). A Methodist church which was converted into a synagogue in Fournier Street is now a mosque -- an apt symbol of this area of London.
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1871:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB6P-FZH
Of the other relatives listed with them in censuses, freebmd shows:
Lucien Emanuel (or Emmanuel) Wolf married Frances Moses in 1880
Given that he is listed as "journalist" in the census, this may be him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucien_Wolf
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Edinburgh Evening News 9th February 1901
English Receiving Orders
"Morris Walter, Wholesale Clothier at 22-28 Fournier St.,Spittlefields, Middlesex lately carrying on business in partnership".
Another account gives his death and bankruptcy figures.
Cathy
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Thank you Cathy! And thank you jorose for the interesting and suggestive link to the Wikipedia entry on Lucien Wolf.
My interest in the Walter family arises because (aged 41) Elizabeth Daisy Walter married Trevor Davidson Southgate, a second marriage for him. I would love to try and trace any surviving documents/family stuff. I know that according to the electoral roll they were living at Pinner Hill Golf Club in the 1950s. He later described himself as 'retired golf club secretary'.
This afternoon I feel that Elizabeth (Betty's) background has sprung into life, how fascinating. Many thanks to all and if you have another thought, it's very welcome!
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Marriage of Violet Julia Walter to Daniel Reginald Abrahams - Paddington - 1a 114
RG13 Piece 119 Folio 57 Page: 7 - 1901 Marylebone London - sister Elizabeth is living with Violet and husband.
Daniel R Abrahams 29 Born London Stockjobber. Agent.
Violet Abrahams 24
Molly C Abrahams 2
Elizabeth Walter 21 Sister-In-Law.
Elizabeth A Walton 30 Servant
Esther Morgan 30 Servant
Mary Broughton 25 Servant
Sandra
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Husband Daniel appears on the JewishGen Online Burial register - Daniel Reginald Abrahams born 1872 died 5 th August 1941 - aged 69 years. Burial Boscombe Cemetery Bournemouth.
Burial Plot - G6-153
Free BMD Death Redg - Vol 2b - Page 1372
Sandra
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Thank you Sandra! It is fascinating seeing how they came up in the world. Morris's father Lazarus appears in the 1841 Census: he was born in Bavaria and with two brothers and wife and tiny Morris is living in Union Street in Tower Hamlets. They then move to Church Street, Spitalfields, where they set up the shop, and then move out to Maida Vale, which seems (from what I've read this afternoon) to be a very typical pathway. It was however the 'wealthy' families who could afford Maida Vale. What happened to the family I wonder when Morris died and went bankrupt in 1901?
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Possible death Violet J (nee Walter) Abrahams - Born 1877 and died Dec 1930 aged 53 years - Paddington. Vol 1a 7
Sandra
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Looks like 2 of the sisters are with Stanley , his wife and family on the 1901 Census - 64 Goldhurst Terrace Hampstead RG13 Piece 123 Folio 119 Page 18
Stanley Walter 30 Tailor - Manufacturing Clothes. Employer
Hannah Walter 26
Olive Walter 2
Nellie Walter 28 Sister.
Dorothy Walter 22 Sister.
Kate Rambow 25 Servant. Nurse Domestic.
Gustav Hahnel 18 Servant
Sandra
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Gertrude Jeanette Walker (aged 38 years - spinster - 130 Clarence Gate Gardens ) married Alfred Poulett Milbank (aged 30 years - bachelor - stock-broker - 14 Rawlings Street) St Simon Church , Chelsea - 16 November 1911
Sandra
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Sandra, you are a total star. This family shot up the social scale. But why did Morris go bankrupt? And how did Elizabeth survive? So many questions!!
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London Electoral register 1921 City of Westminster lists Gertrude Milbank - 6 Bruton Street
(Abode 17 Morshead Mansions Maida Vale NW.)
Also Nellie Walter - abode 64 Paddington Street
London Electoral register 1918 City of Westminster - Gertrude Milbank - 6 Bruton Street ( Abode 30 Station Road Marlow) Also Nellie Walter - 6 Brunton Street (abode 36 Station Road Marlow)
British Army WW1 Pension Record - Short Service Attestation - Army Service Corps - Alfred Milbank - Marriage Date 16 November 1911 - Wife Gertrude Jeanette Milbank - 2 children :- Patrice Esther Milbank and Katherine Milbank. Occupation Motor Ambulance Driver. Served in the 13 th Middlesex Queens, Westminster Inf. Dated 8 th September 1914 - Discharged as unfit for the duties of the corps. 16 October 1914. (Katherine formed part of Patricia's name - there was no second child)
Details on another document said the couple were separated.
Free BMD give birth of Patricia Esther Katherine Milbank - Redg Dec 1912 - Marylebone - 1a 960 (the birth date was 28 September 1912)
There was only one child.
Sandra
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Nellie Walters married Percival Dixon - 22 November 1898 St Cuthbert, Kensington.
Percival aged 25 year, bachelor, architect, Philbeach Gardens. Nellie Walter aged 26 years, spinster, Philbeach Gardens.
There is a Natiional Probate Record for Percival Dixon of Corso Vercelli 31 Milan Italy - died 26 April 1906 - Administration London 11 June to Nellie Dixon widow - Effects £200
Sandra
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Hannah Frances Walter born 1869 died June 1958 - aged 89 years - Maidenhead Berkshire - Vol 6a Page 12.
Hannah Frances Walter 108 Regents Park Road St Pancras London NW1 - spinster - died 31 March 1958 at Ray park Nursing Home, Ray Park Avenue Maidenhead - probate London 2 June to Morris Edward Allan -Coal Coke and Fuel Oil Contractor. Effects £1835 17 s 6d.
Sandra
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Sandra, you are a powerhouse!
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Helps keep the cogs moving. ;D
This could be another female Walter - Gladys Ann Walter born 1885 and died Q1 - 1907 - St Marylebone - Volumme 1a 462
Gladys born Q3 July/Aug/Sept 1884 - Kensington London - Volume 1a Page 55
Sandra
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Wonder if this could be Marie Louise Walters -died 28 March 1961 of 3B Portland Mansions, London W1, Spinster, died at Horton Hospital Egham Surrey. Probate London 11 May to Dorothy Nathan - widow Effects £1888 16 s
Free BMD - Aged 80 years - Marie L Walter - Vol 5g 242 - Surrey
Sandra
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That would lead to Dorothy Rose Nathan - 10 October 1878 - died March 1972. Eastbourne Sussex. Aged 93 years. Volume 5h 985 -
Francis J Nathan married Dorothy Walter - Marylebone - 1a 1675 - September 1930
Sandra
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Looks like Kate Frances married James Gingold - Q4 Paddington - 1a 139
1901 Census RG13 Piece 1222 Folio 100 Page 7 -
James Gingold 36 Born Vienna. Stock Broker. own Account.
Kate Gingold 30 Born Paddington.
Hermione Gingold 3 Born Marylebone.
Mary Mayan 48 Nurse.
Sandra
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Hermione Gingold - daughter of Kate and James
FIND A GRAVE - includes obituary and photograph. She starred on stage in London and New York, in radio, films, television and in recordings. She will be most remembered for her work in the films, Around the World in Eighty Days, Gigi, The Music Man, Gay Purr-ee and A Little Night Music .........................................
Hermione Ferdinanda Gingold - born 8 December 1897 London, Greater London, England died 24 May 1987 - New York, New York County (Manhattan). Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Glendale) Los Angeles California.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=2073&ref=acom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermione_Gingold
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/05/25/obituaries/hermione-gingold-english-actress-dies-at-89.html
Appears on many passenger lists returning to the UK and border crossing from Canada to the USA.
First Marriage to Michael Joseph - 1918 - 1926
Children: Stephen Joseph (1921 - 1967) Leslie Joseph 1925 - 2002 Palm Springs California. (actor)
Stephen Joseph - was an English stage director and pioneer of "theatre in the round".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Joseph
Second Marriage to Eric Maschwitz a film writer. Married 1926 - 1945
Academy Award for Best Writing Adapted Screenplay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Maschwitz
How to Grow Old Disgracefully - Hermione Gingold.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Grow-Disgracefully-Hermione-Gingold/dp/0312022204
Sandra
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James Gingold born 1865 died June 1929 Marylebone - aged 64 years - Vol 1a 622
1902 Post Office Directory - shows James Gingold at 223 Maida vale W
Sandra
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Kate Frances Gingold - 1 Irnham Road Minehead Somerset - widow died 22 February 1943 -at Harley House Nursing Home, Irnham Road Minehead. Probate Llandudno 19 June to Margaret Keays (wife of Cyril Young Clairmont Keays - effects £3216 14 s 6 d
Sandra
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You go and sleep for a few hours and you come back and Sandra's been industriously at work all the time!! I love the link to Hermione Gingold, who would have thought? There must be some present-day family of all this lot who have kept stuff ...
Very, very impressed Sandra. Those cogs are whirring!
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Hannah Frances Walter born 1869 died June 1958 - aged 89 years - Maidenhead Berkshire - Vol 6a Page 12.
Hannah Frances Walter 108 Regents Park Road St Pancras London NW1 - spinster - died 31 March 1958 at Ray park Nursing Home, Ray Park Avenue Maidenhead - probate London 2 June to Morris Edward Allan -Coal Coke and Fuel Oil Contractor. Effects £1835 17 s 6d.
Sandra
Cogs still whirling ;D Puzzled over this guy but I think this Morris Edward Allan (born 1902) was Morris Edward Abrahams and changed his name - son of Daniel Reginald Abrahams and Violet Julie Walter ???
Sandra
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Phyllis Sarah Walters married Harry C Deane - March 1915 - Marylebone - 1a 1190
Harry Cuthbert Deane appears 1921 - Paddington and St Marylebone - 67 Lauderdale Mansions, Lauderdale Road. Maida Vale.
Phyllis Sarah Deane - 29 June 1889 - March 1974 - aged 84 years - Hailsham Sussex - 5h 1057 -
Harry Cuthbert Deane - 26 November 1886 - June 1969 - aged 82 years - Hailsham Sussex - 5h 836
Sandra
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In the meantime my cogs too have been at work, and I have traced Lazarus Walters (note the additional 's') back to the 1841 census when he was living in Union Street, Tower Hamlets with wife and baby Morris and two brothers. They moved on to Spitalfields where over the years he took over four neighbouring buildings in Fournier Street (presumably as one shop) and moved out to Portsdown Road in Maida Vale, a few houses down from his son. When he died in 1887 he left effects of only £100 -- one feels because he had made jolly sure they were in the hands of other members of the family. A fascinating glimpse of one immigrant's family rise over sixty years. I long to know the effect of Morris's bankruptcy and death in 1901 on his family.
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Find My Past have a free weekend which started at 12 noon - try the newspaper section to see what you can find on the family.
On a brief look - I did see articles about Eric Maschwitz who married Hemione/birth announcement for a birth - the wife of Morris Walter - 14 October 1878 - London Standard/birth announcement for a child of Stanley Walter - 5 September 1898 - London Standard - London.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/freeweekend?sisearchengine=1068&siproduct=Email&utm_source=genes_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=325200
Sandra
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Stanley Moses Walter married Hannah Davidson - December 1897 - 1a 168 - Paddington.
Daughter Olive Esther Walter was born Q4 birth redg Oct/Nov/December 1898 - Hampstead - 1a 596
Olive Esther Walter born 1897 London - aged 30 years - appears on a US Detroit Border Crossing 27 October 1927 - Occupation - Actress. Going to the Wilson Theatre. Father Stanley 16 Biddulph Mansions London.
Sandra
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Canadian Passenger List - Oilve Esther Walter - Southampton to Quebec arriving 29 September 1929 - Had been in Canada 1928-1929 - Actress - Father Mr Stanley Walter 10 Biddulph Mansions Maida Vale London.
UK Return Passenger List - New York to Liverpool arriving 15 April 1930 on the Antonia. Going to 10 Biddulph Mansions. Elgin Ave. London.
British Phone Books shows Olive Walter at 11 Buddulph Mansions - 1934/36/37/38
Sandra
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Olive Walter was born on September 1, 1898 in London, England. She is an actress, known for The Deacon and the Jewess (1939), The Blue Bird (1910) and Yellow Sands (1948).
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0910105/bio
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01evo/
Sandra
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Hannah Frances Walter born 1869 died June 1958 - aged 89 years - Maidenhead Berkshire - Vol 6a Page 12.
Hannah Frances Walter 108 Regents Park Road St Pancras London NW1 - spinster - died 31 March 1958 at Ray park Nursing Home, Ray Park Avenue Maidenhead - probate London 2 June to Morris Edward Allan -Coal Coke and Fuel Oil Contractor. Effects £1835 17 s 6d.
Sandra
Cogs still whirling ;D Puzzled over this guy but I think this Morris Edward Allan (born 1902) was Morris Edward Abrahams and changed his name - son of Daniel Reginald Abrahams and Violet Julie Walter ???
Sandra
Hi Sandra
Morris Edward Abraham born 24 May 1901 and died 13 Jan 1985 changed his name to Allan and was the son of Daniel Reginald Abrahams (1871-1941) married 1897 Violet Julia Walter (1879-1930).
All his three marriages were indexed as Allan and as Abrahams
1. Joan Wasserberg born 5 Apr 1906 and died 16 Sep 1979 also indexed as Jane Waters who he married in 1926 and divorced
2. Aileen Edith Delgado born 15 Jun 1903 and died 1 Apr 1977 who he married in 1945
3. Angela Kathleen Stevens born 22 Jun 1922 and died 22 Jan 1982 who he married 1979
Morris and Joan had a son James Nicholas Allan who was a British Ambassador
Joan married (2) Stephen Crane Goulden Bach son of Maximilian Jacob Bach and Ada Sophia Goulden (sister of Emmeline Pankhurst nee Goulden the suffragette) and had a son William Stephen Goulden Bach, the Labour peer, Lord Bach of Lutterworth.
That said yet to peruse link to Hannah Frances Walter but almost certain she was Morris Edward’s maiden maternal aunt.
Hope this helps, Harry Harris
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Hi Harry, interested to see the Walter family story is still generating contributions!
They do sound fascinating, I only wish I could find more about the particular individuals I am concerned with -- Elizabeth 'Betty' Walter and her husband Trevor Davidson Southgate. Betty's niece Hermione Gingold's autobiography mentions her affectionately as wonderfully warm and hospitable.
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Hi q...c...1
I think your line of research may be distant from mine.
I have/am extensively researching the descendants of Henry Harris (c.1760-1817)and Leah (c.1760-1800) “From Rags to Riches or Something in Between” and their children:-
Clara Harris (1814-1895) who married Nathan Abrahams in 1841 and had many well connected descendants
Leah Harris (1816-1853) who married Isaac Isaacs in 1837 and mother of Barney Barnato, the King of Diamonds and grandmother of Solly Joel, the Ace of Diamonds whose granddaughter was a former girlfriend of Prince Harry some ten years ago
Sarah Harris (c.1822-1884) who married David Symons
Henry Harris (1824-1883) who married Hannah Joseph
Woolf Harris (1827-1905) who married Phoebe Romaine in 1848 and father of Colonel Sir David Harris
Rose Harris who married Godfrey Phineas Philips in 1850
So if anyone is researching this family please contact me.
Rgds Harry Harris
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Good luck with your research!